China vs US

This was the Soviet navy's solution to destroying America's carrier groups. I think that this is easier said than done. Carrier groups have between 5 to 7 AGEIS crusiers and destoryers which are dedicated anti-missle platforms designed specifically to counter the Soviet strategy, which seems to have called for massed attacks with around 100 missiles! Before that the missles would also have to get through several evelopes of fighter defence F-14s and F-18s which would be desperatly trying to shoot them down. And even before that the Sovremenny would have to get into range of the Carrier group without being spotted and sunk by attack aircraft, guided missles or submarines, no simple feat. 

That is rathera bit of an exageration my friend. First of all flight3 Los Angles subs are easily the best attack submarines ever built. They are much quieter, even when moving at reletivly high speed, than Kilo submarines which are in fact only quiet when they are not moving at all. Their top speed is in between 30-40 knots submerged making it easily twice as fast as the Kilo, and their normal operating depth is around 300 meters, at least 50 meters more than the Kilo.  Their computer and sonar technology are still years ahead of the best Chinese or Russian technology. American submarine training is of much higher quality than China's, which for the most part uses Russian advisors in their training regemin, having not yet developed any homegrown experiance with submarine warfare. Lastly China is operating 4 Kilos and will supposedly have another 8 by around 2008. The US operates around 60 Los Angeles subs and has been building next-generation Seawolf and Virgina class subs steadily for the last decade (remember that the Los Angeles class is a 30 year old design).

I agree. There is no winning a nuclear war.

It would take an act of God to get a Chinese Xia SSBN with in range of the U.S. Thats all there is to be said really.

If China used tactical nukes there would not be much stopping it from escalating to a full scale nuclear war. I dont really belive that there is such thing as a "limited" nuclear war, it is far more likely to be all or nothing.

the reason why la class has an inferior silencing ability is the same for why all other nuclear powered attack submarines have an inferior silencing ability:

nuclear powered submarines have worse silencing performances than desel powered submarines. in which case, the chinese song class nuclear powered submarines are also inferior to kilo class in silencing.

a new generation of 094 ssbn class is expected to enter service from 2004-2006. i wasn't referring to the xia class. beside that, a new generation chinese 093 nuclear powered ssb is also entering service in 2006. the new generation yuan class has already entered service, and no one knew about its development and existence before it was announced. china is also planning to purchase another patch of 15 kilos of the most advanced version that had previously not been exported to other countries except china.

china does not have mig 29. they refused to purchase them from russia in the early 90's. instead, they chose the superior and more expensive su27. now they are mostly relying on su27, and su30 and are expecting to purchase more su30 and su35 from russia. the russian new fifth generation fighter will also be a co-development project with china.

you cannot use the korean war of the 50's to evluate a future war. any modern wars between major powers can easily turn nuclear. even a traditional one will create a lot more destruction than any wars fought in human history. plus, the only way to avoid from a nuclear attack is to fight with someone without nukes. back in the 50's, china didn't have nukes. but now they even have icbms that can arrive in the us in 20 mins.

The early LA class subs had noisey reactor pumps, but this was solved reletivly quickly. While the Kilo class subs are certainly a credit to the Chinese navy, Los Angles submarines are still easily quieter than Kilo submarines.

According to Sinodefence these new classes of subs probably wont see active service for at least a decade:

"A new design Type 094 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) has been planned and is expected to begin production between 2003~2005. "

"Plans to deploy this class of nuclear powered SSBNs are said to have been delayed due to problems with the nuclear reactor power plants. As of late 1999 there is an evident absence of public reports of the start of construction of the Type 094 submarine. Several years would be required for submarine construction, and probably an additional year or two for shake-down trials of the submarine, and testing of the JL-2 from the submarine."

If we want to speculate about weapon systems a decade into the future, it would be interesting to see what new developments that will have been in the U.S. Armed forces by that time.

definitely more than britain and australia combined.

the us and russia are the only naval forces that i consider good. the rest of western countries are all not so good. a us general once said the us has the ability to destroy all the naval forces of western and eastern europes plus australia.

China has the second largest military budget in the world. from your writing, I have a feeling that you think they've been spending all that money on gambling.

PLA Navy Inventories:

DDGs Total 29+2=31 ships

2X 056E Sovremenny II Class DDG, 8000-10000 tons
2X 052C Ageis airdefence DDG, 6000-8000 tons
2X 052B DDG (in service), 6000-8000 tons
2X 956 Sovremenny Class DDG, 8000 tons
1X 051B Luhai Class DDG, 6000 tons (in service)
2X 051C DDG (under construction) ---- Newly Added (MK20254EVER)
2X 052 Luhu Class DDG, 4200 tons (in service)
6X 051G Luda III/V (refited) Class DDG, 3500 tons (in service)
9X 051 Luda I/II Class DDG, 3200 tons (in service)

FFGs Total 48 ships

4X 054 FFG, 4000 tons
10X 053H3 Jiangwei II Class FFG, 2500 tons
4X 053H2G Jiangwei Class FFG, 2500 tons
6X 053H1G Jianghu V Class FFG, 1600 tons
3X 053H2 Jianghu III Class FFG, 2000 tons
23X 053H/H1/HT-H Jianghu I/II/IV Class FFG, 1700 tons


SSN/SSBNs At least 8 ships

1X Project 094 SSBN (to be commissioned)
1X Project 093 SSN (to be commissioned)
1-3?X 092 Xia Class SSBN, 6500 tons dived
5X Han Class SSN, 5500 tons dived

SSKs At least 67 ships

12X Project 636 Improved Kilo Class SSK
4X 877EKM Kilo Class SSK, 3000 tons dived
2X Yuan Class SSK ---- Newly Added (MK20254EVER)
5X 039 Song Class SSK, 2200 tons dived
19X 035 Ming Class SSK, 2100 tons dived
23/8(reserve)X Project 033 Remeo Class SSK, 1800 tons dived


Landing Crafts Around 400 ships

3+X 072 III Large LST,
6X 072 II Yuting Class Large LST, 3480 tons
7X 072 Yukan Class Large LST, 3100 tons
300+X 271 Utility LST
10X 068/069 Yuqing class Utility LST, 60 tons
40X 067 Yunan Class Utility LST, 130 tons
30X Type 724 Air Cushion Landing Craft, 6.35 tons
1X Type 722-II Air Cushion Landing Craft 78 tons


Littoral Ships Around around 340 ships

5X Houjian Class (Type 520T) Missile Attack Boat, 520 tons
14X Houxin Class (Type 037-II) Missile Attack Boat, 478 tons
60X Huangfeng Class (Type 021) Missile Attack Boat, 205 tons
Small number in reserve service X Houku Class Missile Attack Boat, 69 tons
17X Haiqing Class (Type 037-I/ID) Subchaser, 478 tons
90X Hainan Class (Type 037) Subchaser, 430 tons
110X Shanghai-II Class (Type 062) Gun Patrol Boat, 134.8 tons
Small number in training service X Huchuan Class Torpedo Boat, 46 tons
1X Wolei Class (Type 918) Minelayer, 2,300 tons
40X T-43 Fleet Minesweeper, 590 tons
1X Wosao Class (Type 082) Coastal Minesweeper, 320 tons

AirCrafts (too hard to keep trace of numbers, just gonna list the planes)

JH-7/FBC-1 JH-7 Fighter-Bomber
H-6D Anti-Ship Missile Bomber
SU-30MKK2
H-6DU AA Tankers
J-8II(many varients)
J-7(many varients)
Q-5
Z-9C Ship Born Anti-Sub Chopper
Ka-28/32 Ship Born Anti-Sub Chopper
SA 321Ja 'Super Frelon' / Z-8 Naval Helicopter

This post has been edited by UD2 on Nov 23 2003, 10:02 AM

http://pakistanidefence.ipbhost.com/index....showtopic=22115

they were already built. you can find the pictures online. they were deployed in 2004.

"Meanwhile, China is also the first country to obtain naval RIF SAM". He stressed that with the rapid progress in military technologies, the overall technological standard of Russia's export arms to China will rise even further."
from Kanwa: http://www.kanwa.com/free/2004/05/e0504%20956EM.htm

As for the airforce, China owns some 300 different variants of SU35MK, SU27 (several variants), J10, FC7, and some 3000 older models of J8 (many variants), J7 (many variants) and some other planes such as bombers etc.

The number of advanced air superiority fighters athough only accounts for 10 percent (300) of the total inventories, i believe they are already more than most countries including australia.

i like this one:

what you said would hold if the war were fought near the us.

if the war were fought in china's coastal area such as any region near taiwan, the land-based m class mid range missiles and cruise missiles would cause serious trouble to the us aircraft combatants.

the chinese mainland would be an unsinkable super aircraft carrier with superior air defence to any ship-based air defense systems.