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The Battle of Moh�cs, 1526

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Moh�cs, 1526
    Posted: 16-Mar-2005 at 20:55
Are there any descriptions of the battle? Which units took part on both sides?
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 07:38

Sir Charles Oman's History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century gives a fairly detailed description of the battle.

Mohacs--the "Graveyard of the Hungarian Nation".

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 08:22
Look here
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 19:02
From what I have read, it was a combination of the arquebus volleys of the Janissaries and the Ottoman artillery which gave the Turks the victory at Mohacs.  King Louis and his heavy cavalry were pincussioned in the middle of the field by the firearms and the numerous Ottoman infantry decimated what little infantry the Hungarians had.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 09:59

 

According to the latest historical researches a ottoman cannonfire was not the decisive factor. A cannonballs flew over the heads of the charging hungarian cavalry. The key of the ottoman victoy was the discipline and the superior numbers.

The hungarian battle plan (attacking and defeating part of the ottoman army after one another) was failed before the battle, because the king delayed the attack.

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 18:54
Originally posted by Raider

 

According to the latest historical researches a ottoman cannonfire was not the decisive factor. A cannonballs flew over the heads of the charging hungarian cavalry. The key of the ottoman victoy was the discipline and the superior numbers.

The hungarian battle plan (attacking and defeating part of the ottoman army after one another) was failed before the battle, because the king delayed the attack.

Care to support this assumption with evidence? In other words, what scholarly book or journal article did you get this information from?     Of course the Ottomans had superior numbers and better discipline, the Janissaries were far better trained than the feudal levies that made up a majority of the Hungarian force.  From what I have read, a list of which I can post if you would like, it was the firearms of the Janissaries (and their skill in using them) and the artillery that inflicted the most damage on the Hungarian cavalry and won the victory for the Ottomans.



Edited by Byzantine Emperor
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 05:56
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Care to support this assumption with evidence? In other words, what scholarly book or journal article did you get this information from?     Of course the Ottomans had superior numbers and better discipline, the Janissaries were far better trained than the feudal levies that made up a majority of the Hungarian force.  From what I have read, a list of which I can post if you would like, it was the firearms of the Janissaries (and their skill in using them) and the artillery that inflicted the most damage on the Hungarian cavalry and won the victory for the Ottomans.

Of course. All of my later sources aggreed this. I use hungarian sources (mostly articles of historical periodicals) like historian Lajos Ngyessi, Perjs Gza and Gusztv Winkler. The above link also states:

"The situation of the artillery assigned to the Rumelian armydeserves special attention. Brodarics's account implies that the artillery was positioned in some kind of depression, so that when thefiring started, the cannonballs sped above the heads of the Hungarians. [468] The same fact emerges from Suleyman's diary: "they startedto fire the guns, but could cause no damage." Everything points to anunheard-of situation: the artillery had been ordered into a positionfrom which it could not fire out! Since the Ottoman artillery was inno way inferior to European artilleries, it is inconceivable that thiswas the result of ignorance or neglect. Two circumstances mayexplain the paradox: the order to set up camp and the terrain. Whenthe artillerymen received the order to set up camp they must havestopped wherever they happened to be and placed their guns infiring position. They apparently settled in a depression in front ofthe terrace, where the difference between the high and low spots wasas much as 4-5 m. Consequently, the cannons had no firing range orcould fire only in a raised position and could not sweep the area infront of them. The artillery commander was undoubtedly worried bythese conditions, but could do nothing, since it would have been mostrisky to drag the cannons further forward to the next rising, so closeto the Hungarians. The fact that they built a practically unpenetrable obstacle in front of their batteries also indicates that thesituation arose not from ignorance or neglect but because the inappropriate terrain for setting up camp."

I have writen about cannonfire. The firearms of the janissaries are another question.

A painting of Orlai Petrics Soma:

Mrs. Pernyi had the dead buried

http://www.hung-art.hu/kep/o/orlai_pe/muvek/2/orlai207.jpg

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 13:35

The cannon fire surely was decisive. I have read somewhere that it was actually the first time in history the cannon was directly used against infantry,cavalry.  Until then it had been used more of a siege weapon.

And yes the Ottomans military structure was more advanced compared to its advesaries of the time.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 03:40
Originally posted by observer

The cannon fire surely was decisive.

That's what I was taught too. But even the cronicles (Brodarics chronicle) said the other version.

By the way I see some similarity with the misinterpretation of the battle of Muhi. I have read on many site that this was a battle between the hungarian knights, and the mongol horse archers, what is definitively not true.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 16:25
what was it then like?
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 03:24

Originally posted by Temujin

what was it then like?
1. The mongol army made up not only horse archer light cavalry, but also heavy cavalry.

2. At that time the hungarian army was in the middle of a reform. The former horse archer style army changed into a heavier cavalry. Only a small percent of the hungarian army wore a knightly armor. (the royal bodyguard, the knights templar, and the lords.) The others wore only leather armor, with sword, spear and bow.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 15:20
well, that are all well-known facts (at least I did knew)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 21:56

 

Correct me if i'm wrong..janissary never use volley power.. usually their place themself in devensive position at the middle of army and have strong backup from calvary at the flank and melee infantry at their back and azap at the front...azap infantry will face an enamy calvary and brough them in the line of jannissary and cannon fire...at this point their marksmanship and fast loading will destroy the enemy, maybe their act like skirmisher because their main offensive stroke ussually from calvary force...jannissary thread their arm like their bow...

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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 09:34

you are right zuwairi.

Can someone tell me the fight part of the Mohacz?I know that lots of cannons  beated the pouring Hungarian knights,lots of them drowned in the swamps,some of them fled and some of them survived.

But how did the Hungarian army attacked Ottoman infantry and Cavalry?

I wonder this so much because I had a book which says that "Ottomans lost only 156 men in Mohacz". 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 12:04

 

Link about battle of mohac: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/warso/

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 04:18

Originally posted by Temujin

well, that are all well-known facts (at least I did knew)
That's good. I have seen many wrong battle description.

Jagatai Khan:

1. The cannonfire was ineffective. (see above)

2. The Hungarian battle plan was simple. Because of the rough terrain the ottoman army splited, and Tomori wanted to attack these separate parts one after the other. But they had to wait to long and the king ordered the army to camp and got off his armour. By the time they were ready again to attack it was to late. After the first successes tha janissaries arrived and the plan failed.

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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 05:54
The cannon fire was ineffective?I had known that this battle was won by Ottomans because of the superioity of the cannons.
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 05:30

I have just read an article in a historical periodical: The turkish lucky day.

The author (Pl Fodor) suggest that this coincidence might not be an accident. Is this conceivable?

Capture of Belgrad August 29th 1521.

Battle of Mohcs  August 29th 1526.

Capture of Buda, the conquest of Hungary August 29th 1541.

Failed attempt to help the ottoman defenders of Buda August 29th 1686.

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 07:10

30 August our holiday of victory.(Independance war)

But  I think It is just  coincidence.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 09:31

 

By the way what kind of calendar was used in Turkey that time? Was it the same than the other muslim countries?

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