Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Where was the ancient "Gaul" located?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Where was the ancient "Gaul" located?
    Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:43
Lets see first what Pliny the Elder says:
 
source (Book 6, Chapter 21)
 
But we come now to nations as to which there is a more general agreement among writers. Where the chain of Emodus1 rises, the nations of India begin, which borders not only on the Eastern sea, but on the Southern as well, which we have already mentioned2 as being called the Indian Ocean. That part which faces the east runs in a straight line a distance of eighteen hundred and seventy-five miles until it comes to a bend, at which the Indian Ocean begins. Here it takes a turn to the south, and continues to run in that direction a distance of two thousand four hundred and seventy-five miles, according to Eratosthenes, as far as the river Indus, the boundary of India on the west.3 Many authors have represented the entire length of the Indian coast as being forty days' and nights' sail, and as being, from north to south, two thousand eight hundred and fifty miles. Agrippa states its length to be three thousand three hundred miles, and its breadth, two thousand three hundred. Posidonius has given its measurement as lying from north-east to south-east, placing it opposite to Gaul, of which country he has given the measurement as lying from north-west to south-west; making the whole of India to lie due west of Gaul. Hence, as he has shewn by undoubted proofs, India lying opposite to Gaul must be refreshed [p. 2039] by the blowing of that wind,4 and derive its salubrity there- from.
 
In this region, the appearance of the heavens is totally changed, and quite different is the rising of the stars; there are two summers in the year, and two harvests, while the winter intervenes between them during the time that the Etesian5 winds are blowing: during our winter too, they enjoy light breezes, and their seas are navigable. In this country there are nations and cities which would be found to be quite innumerable, if a person should attempt to enumerate them. For it has been explored not only by the arms of Alexander the Great and of the kings who succeeded him, by Seleucus and Antiochus, who sailed round even to the Caspian and Hyrcanian Sea, and by Patrocles,6 the admiral of their fleet, but has been treated of by several other Greek writers who resided at the courts of Indian kings, such, for instance, as Megasthenes, and by Dionysius, who was sent thither by Philadelphus, expressly for the purpose: all of whom have enlarged upon the power and vast resources of these nations.
 

1 The Emodi Montes (so called probably from the Indian hemâdri, or the "golden") are supposed to have formed that portion of the great lateral branch of the Indian Caucasus, the range of the Himalaya, which extends along Nepaul, and probably as far as Bhotan.

2 In c. 14 of the present Book.

3 The whole of this passage seems very intricate, and it is difficult to make sense of it. His meaning, however, is probably this: that the coast of India, running from extreme north-east to south-east, relatively to Greece, the country of Eratosthenes, is exactly opposite to the coast of Gaul, running from extreme north-west to south-west--India thus lying due west of Gaul, without any intervening land. This, it will be remembered, was the notion of Columbus, when contemplating the possibility of a western passage to India.

4 This appears also to be somewhat obscure. It is clear that if India lies to the west of Gaul, it cannot be Pliny's meaning that it is refreshed by the west wind blowing to it from Gaul. He may possibly mean that the west wind, which is so refreshing to the west of Europe, and Gaul in particular, first sweeps over India, and thus becomes productive of that salubrity which Posidonius seems to have discovered in India, but for which we look in vain at the present day. Amid, however, such multiplied chances of a corrupt text, it is impossible to assume any very definite position as to his probable meaning. The French translators offer no assistance in solving the difficulty, and Holland renders it, "This west wind which from behind Gaul bloweth upon India, is very healthsome," &c.

5 As to the Etesian winds, see 1. ii. c. 48.

6 In the geographical work which Patrocles seems to have published, he is supposed to have given some account of the countries bordering on the Caspian Sea, and there is little doubt that, like other writers of that period, he regarded that sea as a gulf or inlet of the Septentrional Ocean, and probably maintained the possibility of sailing thither by sea from the Indian Ocean. This statement, however, seems to have been strangely misinterpreted by Pliny in his present assertion, that Patrocles had himself accomplished this circumnavigation.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:44
I have not read the post, but Iran? A wild guess!
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:48
Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:49
Originally posted by Sparten

I have not read the post, but Iran? A wild guess!
Exactly! LOL
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 11:51
Originally posted by Sparten

I have not read the post, but Iran? A wild guess!


Actually not, his source just says that you can go West to India as well as East - ie Gaul is exactly where it always has been.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province


No, he doesn't. He means the Roman Gaul, ie Gallia. Pliny knew the world was round.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 01-Sep-2008 at 11:53
Back to Top
Maharbbal View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 08-Mar-2006
Location: Paris
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:11
is it possible that he refers to a place where the Galat Gauls were installed?
I am a free donkey!
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:21
No, he doesn't. He means the Roman Gaul, ie Gallia. Pliny knew the world was round.
 
I'm sure you know that Pliny lived almost 2,000 years ago, 16 centuries before Galilei, yes?
 
Golestan is in the east of the Caspian sea, please read footnote number 6, it is obvious that Pliny thought the Caspian sea is connected to the Indian Ocean, so Golestan could be in the west of India.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 01-Sep-2008 at 12:21
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:26
You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?



Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No, he doesn't. He means the Roman Gaul, ie Gallia. Pliny knew the world was round.
 
I'm sure you know that Pliny lived almost 2,000 years ago, 16 centuries before Galilei, yes?
 
Golestan is in the east of the Caspian sea, please read footnote number 6, it is obvious that Pliny thought the Caspian sea is connected to the Indian Ocean, so Golestan could be in the west of India.


Yes, but you must have missed that Erathostenes lived 19 centuries before Galilei.Wink

Anyhow, it is quite an exagerration to say that Pliny knew the world was round. My point was that he meant what we call France, and say that India stretches around. The Romans were more into how to get to places, not to put them on a map. Pliny wrote Gallia in the Latin original, so it's pretty clear what he is referring to. If he meant something else, he would have specified it - he was writing for a Roman audience and for them Gallia meant Roman Gaul.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 01-Sep-2008 at 12:47
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:56
Its been known the world is round since.................. even before the Greeks. Anyone who went sailing, or lived on a mountain can tell you that.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Did Pilny mean Gaul-istan (Golestan) province in the north-east of Iran? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golest%C4%81n_Province
 
No.
 
Gaul consisted of Italy north of the Rubicon, and Europe west of the Rhine and north of the Pyrenees. Certainly Caesar never conquered Golestan and divided it into three parts Smile
 
Some Gauls did migrate late on into Asia Minor and where they settled is called Galatia. Maybe they also colonised part of Iran too, so I guess if you want to argue that Persians are descendants of Gauls, you may have a case.
 
PS It's seems to be obvious that, postulating a K->Dj sound shift at some point, Kerman and Kermanshah were settled by Germans, whereas a group of people from Newcastle colonised Kordestan. But I hate to think what kind of ladies originally populated the various Khorasans - presumably apart from their vocational status they were also Japanese?


Edited by gcle2003 - 01-Sep-2008 at 13:22
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 15:00
Originally posted by Constantine XI

You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?

ok, according to your link, this is 19th century reconstruction of Eratosthenes's map of the known world:
 
Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 15:27
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Constantine XI

You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?

ok, according to your link, this is 19th century reconstruction of Eratosthenes's map of the known world:
 


That is not problematic. Eratosthenes could not have filled in the corners of such a map because they frankly had to use guesswork. They drew only what they knew. The fact they considered their known world to be surrounded by ocean is technically correct.

If they were to make a model of their known world, with it being part of a globe, how big or small should their "known" part be compared to the rest of the "unkown" globe? Clearly this type of problem meant they could only draw a map which was a two dimensional representation of what they did definitely know about - with the edges of the known world unsurprisingly distorted and surrounded by ocean.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:42

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html

Unfortunately there is not much info about Gaulish language in Gaulistan province of Iran, I hope this project give us some info:

http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150

Documentation of the language and lifestyle of the Galesh, province of Golestan, Iran
Helen Jahani, Uppsala University

Project Summary:
The Galesh are herdsmen in the Alborz mountains. Their total number is unknown, but diminishing rapidly due to the modernisation of the Iranian society. This project attempts to find out if the language of the Eastern Galesh in Golestan is similar to any of the languages of the settled population in the area or if it should be regarded as a language of its own. In Galeshi there are many terms for husbandry and dairy production, which are not found among the agriculturalists. Since the lifestyle of the Galesh is severely threatened this project will document important aspects of it before it is too late.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 01-Sep-2008 at 16:43
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Constantine XI

You didn't have to wait until Gallileo to know the world is round:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

Centuries before Pliny was born, Greeks were able to even measure the circumference of the earth with remarkable accuracy. Who would bother to measure circumference, without knowing the spherical nature of our planet?

ok, according to your link, this is 19th century reconstruction of Eratosthenes's map of the known world:
 



This map completely consistent with the statement that India is to the West of (Roman) Gaul, assuming the world is round. :)
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:14

You should read footnotes, there are some problems, if we consider "Gaul" as "European Gaul", for example no.2 says "It is clear that if India lies to the west of Gaul, it cannot be Pliny's meaning that it is refreshed by the west wind blowing to it from Gaul."

What is the reason that Pliny says that Alexander and others sailed from India to the Caspian sea?
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Plinly certainly knew Gaulish people who lived around the Caspian sea, of course it seems he has called them Gaels and thought they are the same Cadusians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusii) who have been mentioned by Greeks.

-> Gaeli, quos Graeci Cadusios appellavere (Book 6, Chapter 18)

sources:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0138&query=page%3D%23431
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/6*.html

Gaels are not Gauls and Gauls are not Gaels. The Gaels lived (and still do) in the British
Isles. The Gauls lived on the mainland. Pliny may have thought there were people named Gaeli who were also called Cadusii by the Greeks, and indeed there may have been some. But they weren't the same people called Gaels in the West (actually did the Romans use 'Gaeli' for the Gaels in fact? I'm not sure.)
 
Anyway, flattering though it may be to be assumed not to need it, the standards of this forum require you to provide a translation of substantial foreign language texts.
Unfortunately there is not much info about Gaulish language in Gaulistan province of Iran,
Probably because there is no Gaulish language isn't Golestan. Incidentally it would be good if you could make your mind up whether you are talking about Gaul or Gaels.
I hope this project give us some info:

http://www.hrelp.org/grants/projects/index.php?projid=150

Documentation of the language and lifestyle of the Galesh, province of Golestan, Iran
Helen Jahani, Uppsala University

Project Summary:
The Galesh are herdsmen in the Alborz mountains. Their total number is unknown, but diminishing rapidly due to the modernisation of the Iranian society. This project attempts to find out if the language of the Eastern Galesh in Golestan is similar to any of the languages of the settled population in the area or if it should be regarded as a language of its own. In Galeshi there are many terms for husbandry and dairy production, which are not found among the agriculturalists. Since the lifestyle of the Galesh is severely threatened this project will document important aspects of it before it is too late.

I note there is nothing there to give any reason to believe that the Galesh are either Gauls or Gaels.
 
By the way how's your project coming alonfg to prove that that India was first settled by peoples from America, since they are both called Indians?
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 01-Sep-2008 at 19:24
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 07:33

There is certianly a relation between Gaels, Gauls, Gallians, Galatians, ... which are all the names of Celtic peoples, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt : their root may be the Common Celtic *galno, meaning 'power' or 'strength'.

As you read in this book: Chambers's Information for the People, "The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: The Annual Review and History of Literature says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian. The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Sep-2008 at 12:45
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925
  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 11:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."
Ah, that's the way it goes. I was waiting for this statement of yours.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 12:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As you read in this book: Chambers's Information for the People, "The Celtic nation possessed, a space of country extending from the Pillars of Hercules [Gibraltar] to Asia Minor and beyond the Caspian. (east of the Caspian sea)" and this book: The Annual Review and History of Literature says "The Celtic tongue once prevailed from Gibraltar to the Caspian. The path of migration lay, no doubt, from Caspian toward Armorica."


Do you also agree on the author's conclusion about the reason behind the "love of the Negroes for night dancing"?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.029 seconds.