Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

US signs missile defense deal with Poland.
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: US signs missile defense deal with Poland.
    Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 11:42
I really always doubted that premise, even in the cold war./ If Poland dose something stupid or the Russians something agressive, its 1st Sep '39 again.
 
Poland hosting the missile defense system makes the a legitamate target. No doubt those radars and missiles will attacked as part of a general nuclear strike, by aircraft (against who they are useless) or by sub missile which arrive too quickly.
 
Back to Top
Władysław Warnencz View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

Suspended

Joined: 28-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 11:45
Originally posted by Anton

Because Poland is protected by NATO organization including USA. If Russia starts nuclear war against Poland NATO will do the same to Russia.
 
 
That is for the moment.But we know such organizations do not last forever.There might be some stability in the world at the moment,but it will not be forever.What will happen when this stability dissapears?What will happen if NATO dissapears?Poland will be left defenceless...And we know from history that russians tend to have imperialistic ambitions and never miss a chance to invade a defenceless country - especially eastern-european.We've seen it many times - the last time they did it with their best friends - the nazi.I don't want Poland to be defenceless the next time a crazy dicator in Russia descides to invade us.Even with the shield we'll be weaker than Russia,but at least we'll have protection from their nuclear missiles.I don't see how this is a threat to Russia and why you think we should be left completely defenceless...
 
Back to Top
Władysław Warnencz View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

Suspended

Joined: 28-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 11:50
Originally posted by Sparten

I really always doubted that premise, even in the cold war./ If Poland dose something stupid or the Russians something agressive, its 1st Sep '39 again.
 
Poland hosting the missile defense system makes the a legitamate target. No doubt those radars and missiles will attacked as part of a general nuclear strike, by aircraft (against who they are useless) or by sub missile which arrive too quickly.
 
 
Poland was always number one target for the russians,so doesn't really change anything.When (because it surely will happen one day) the current stability dissapears and it is almost every country for itself Poland will be one of the firs targets for Russia,as it already was many times.So it is at least quite better with that shield,than without it.I would rather see my country completely destroyed because we chose to fight (as it happened 60 years ago),than simply occupated without any struggle.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 11:55
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

the last time they did it with their best friends - the nazi.


To be honest, the last time they invaded was in 1968 and you were invading on their side (plus other three countries). Just for record.

Nevertheless, I agree with what you have said. It is no threat to Russia's sovereignity.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 22-Aug-2008 at 11:57
Back to Top
Władysław Warnencz View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

Suspended

Joined: 28-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:03
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

the last time they did it with their best friends - the nazi.


To be honest, the last time they invaded was in 1968 and you were invading on their side (plus other three countries). Just for record.

Nevertheless, I agree with what you have said. It is no threat to Russia's sovereignity.
 
I meant the last time they invaded us - Poland was with the NAZI.In 1968 it was again an attack solely made by the russians,because they gave orders to their satelites to follow them.Poles,bulgarians and other participants in this invasion did not descide to attack - they were ordered by Moscow to do so and even if they didn't want to they had no choice.
Back to Top
Antioxos View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 26-Apr-2006
Location: Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 340 		  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:25

The missle defence system in Poland serve the American interest and not Poland interest .

Americans will use it only if is in danger the American interest .With a small search in the past you ll see that american bases in the world do not involve in the local conflicts but only if American interest are in danger.Furthermore the cold war characterized from  the absence of a declared   war .The rival states participated in this kind of war start up a military buildup and political battles for support around the world. These activities included the significant involvement of allied and  satellite nation  in local "third party" wars.

With this way i dont think that  US will start III world war to protect Poland if we suppose that Russia has interest to invade to Poland that is very improbable because you dont invade to a country member of E.U. just for fun , you must have more benefits than loses from this action.Usually rival-imperialistic states saw their power to small countries like Georgia , Iraq etc.


Edited by Antioxos - 22-Aug-2008 at 12:28

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:26
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

That is for the moment.But we know such organizations do not last forever.There might be some stability in the world at the moment,but it will not be forever.What will happen when this stability dissapears?What will happen if NATO dissapears?Poland will be left defenceless...
Do you see any signs of disapearing NATO? What I see so far is increasing in number of NATO countries with countries who's behavior is unfriendly to Russia.
 
And we know from history that russians tend to have imperialistic ambitions and never miss a chance to invade a defenceless country - especially eastern-european.
 
We know from history that only nuclear attack so far was done by Americans, those who are now creating a tool make Russian nuclear power ineffective. Those, I remind you, who at the state level never felt sorry about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We see that same Americans military supported Georgia who basically started the war in SO. What would happen if they were in NATO, what do you think? So far we see that Americans not only try to control the strategical resource rich regions but do not bother to invade key countries in those regions. This is what we know from recent years. All this makes Russia to be worried about her security.
 
We've seen it many times - the last time they did it with their best friends - the nazi.
I noted this masterpiece but will not comment it Smile
 
I don't want Poland to be defenceless the next time a crazy dicator in Russia descides to invade us.Even with the shield we'll be weaker than Russia,but at least we'll have protection from their nuclear missiles.
Crazy dictator Saakashvili recently invaded South Osetia which somehow turned out to be a reason for Poland to search for defence from Russia.
 
 
I don't see how this is a threat to Russia and why you think we should be left completely defenceless...
Looks like the discussion goes full circle.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:30
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Poland was always number one target for the russians,so doesn't really change anything.When (because it surely will happen one day) the current stability dissapears and it is almost every country for itself Poland will be one of the firs targets for Russia,as it already was many times.So it is at least quite better with that shield,than without it.I would rather see my country completely destroyed because we chose to fight (as it happened 60 years ago),than simply occupated without any struggle.
 
So why don't you seek for defence from Germany?
.
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Antioxos

The missle defence system in Poland serve the American interest and not Poland interest .

I think Poles would beg to differ. Plus they get fairly big rent $.
Back to Top
Władysław Warnencz View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

Suspended

Joined: 28-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:36
Originally posted by Anton

 
 
We know from history that only nuclear attack so far was done by Americans, those who are now creating a tool make Russian nuclear power ineffective. Those, I remind you, who at the state level never felt sorry about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We see that same Americans military supported Georgia who basically started the war in SO. What would happen if they were in NATO, what do you think? So far we see that Americans not only try to control the strategical resource rich regions but do not bother to invade key countries in those regions. This is what we know from recent years. All this makes Russia to be worried about her security.
 
 
 
If you want to discuss the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki open a new thread where i can explain why i see those attacks as one of the best solutions in the war.
 
I noted this masterpiece but will not comment it Smile
 
Not stating you're opinion you simply agree with mine.
 
 
 
 
Crazy dictator Saakashvili recently invaded South Osetia which somehow turned out to be a reason for Poland to search for defence from Russia.
 [QUOTE]
 
This is also another thread so i will not write here why the whole war was fabricated by the russians solely out of economical purposes.This is my opinion of the war :
 
 
In fact you didn't answer my post at all,just turned to other topics.


Edited by Władysław Warnencz - 22-Aug-2008 at 12:43
Back to Top
Władysław Warnencz View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

Suspended

Joined: 28-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:41
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Poland was always number one target for the russians,so doesn't really change anything.When (because it surely will happen one day) the current stability dissapears and it is almost every country for itself Poland will be one of the firs targets for Russia,as it already was many times.So it is at least quite better with that shield,than without it.I would rather see my country completely destroyed because we chose to fight (as it happened 60 years ago),than simply occupated without any struggle.
 
So why don't you seek for defence from Germany?
 
Because Germany is totally different from what it was 60 years ago,while in Russia only the economical system is changed and the names of those that rule.Putin brought back the censorship,persecution of disidents,political propaganda and imperialism of the old USSR,so at least Russia's foreign policy isn't much different than this in 1939.We can see a new kind of USSR rising and that's why they are a threat to us and the germans aren't.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:46
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

If you want to discuss the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki open a new thread where i can explain why i see those attacks as one of the best solutions in the war.
 
No thnx, I am not interested in you explanation. I find them wrong as I heard them from others.
 
Not stating you're opinion you simply agree with mine.
 
I don't mind if you think so. Cheers  Yet something's wrong with your education if you say Soviets and Nazi are best friends.
 
This is also another thread so i will not write here why the whole war was fabricated by the russians solely out of economical purposes.
You don't need to write it. Everything was sounded by Saakashvili. It is not convincing. Even western mass media recognize that.
 
 
In fact you didn't answer my post at all,just turned to other topics.
Look few posts above. The explanation about equilibrium etc. Look also Flipper's and Antioxos' posts.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:49
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Because Germany is totally different from what it was 60 years ago,while in Russia only the economical system is changed and the names of those that rule.Putin brought back the censorship,persecution of disidents,political propaganda and imperialism of the old USSR,so at least Russia's foreign policy isn't much different than this in 1939.We can see a new kind of USSR rising and that's why they are a threat to us and the germans aren't.
 
You are entirely fundamentally wrong. This is just antirussian histeria in your mind. I have nothing more to say actually.
.
Back to Top
Władysław Warnencz View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

Suspended

Joined: 28-Jun-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 175 		  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 12:56
Originally posted by Anton

I don't mind if you think so. Cheers  Yet something's wrong with your education if you say Soviets and Nazi are best friends.
 
 
 
They were best friend in 1939,when as alies signed the Molotov-Ribentrop pact in Moscow and a few days later attacked Poland from two sides.They became enemies in 1941 only because Hitler attacked,before that they had good relations.
 
 
Soviet and Nazi soldiers in Poland - best friends :
 
 
Soviet-Nazi parade in Brest- LItovsk : http://www.vbox7.com/play:8d6cb7f6
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 15:16
Originally posted by Anton

This is not that ridiculous from Russian point of view. USA started several wars past 10 years. At least one of them (Iraq) was clearly due to control over resources. Iran is unsecure for similar reasons. Why should Russia feel safe?


yes it is ridiculous and tell you why: in one sentence you talk about "equilibrium", that means USA and Russia are equals, as nculear powers. in the NEXT sentence you compare Russia to Iraq, a third world country, as possible victim of the US. obviously it is YOU who doesn't know what you're talking about, least it betrays your own hypocracy very obviously.


 
"if Russia uses its ressources as a bitch, it shouldn't be surprised if it gets raped and shot in the face. Nuke"
"did you hide in a cave the last 20 years or something? Cold war is over and lost for Russia/USSR, get over it, whining doesn't help."
 
I am not sure I understood your pathetics. I am not sure you understood it yourself. Smile 


those are not "pathetics" but i can understand why you can't comprehend what i'm saying. Smile
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 15:20
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

Poland was always number one target for the russians,so doesn't really change anything.When (because it surely will happen one day) the current stability dissapears and it is almost every country for itself Poland will be one of the firs targets for Russia,as it already was many times.So it is at least quite better with that shield,than without it.I would rather see my country completely destroyed because we chose to fight (as it happened 60 years ago),than simply occupated without any struggle.
 
So why don't you seek for defence from Germany?


what a question. Germany and Poland are friends now in the first place and co-operate.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 16:49
Originally posted by Temujin


yes it is ridiculous and tell you why: in one sentence you talk about "equilibrium", that means USA and Russia are equals, as nculear powers. in the NEXT sentence you compare Russia to Iraq, a third world country, as possible victim of the US. obviously it is YOU who doesn't know what you're talking about, least it betrays your own hypocracy very obviously.

The equilibrium is at present but if USA manage to create effective missile defence system Russia will turn out to be at Iraq level in comparison to USA. Is it that tough to understand?


 those are not "pathetics" but i can understand why you can't comprehend what i'm saying. Smile
 
Then I am happy to realize that you are much smarter than me Smile And apparently than some american authorities. Those who do not understand this "cold war is over for Russians but not for us" demagogy. Like the guy who's note I posted yesterday.
.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by Temujin


what a question. Germany and Poland are friends now in the first place and co-operate.
 
But the logic was that once yet unknown Russian crazy dictator will attack Poland. How about defence from crazy German dictator? I smell hypocrisy here.
.
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 17:07
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Temujin


what a question. Germany and Poland are friends now in the first place and co-operate.
 
But the logic was that once yet unknown Russian crazy dictator will attack Poland. How about defence from crazy German dictator? I smell hypocrisy here.


LOL crazy German dictator? Germany is way more likely to break up in smaller states like Bavaria, Saxony etc. than a crazy dictator seizing all power in Germany. German nation learned their lesson in WWII, but Russians didn't.
Back to Top
Bankotsu View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 27-Feb-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 511 		  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 17:07
Originally posted by Władysław Warnencz

I meant the last time they invaded us - Poland was with the NAZI.


Your views Warnencz on below strategy?

...And by this date, certain members of the Milner Group and of the British Conservative government had reached the fantastic idea that they could kill two birds with one stone by setting Germany and Russia against one another in Eastern Europe.

In this way they felt that the two enemies would stalemate one another, or that Germany would become satisfied with the oil of Rumania and the wheat of the Ukraine.  It never occurred to anyone in a responsible position that Germany and Russia might make common cause, even temporarily, against the West.  Even less did it occur to them that Russia might beat Germany and thus open all Central Europe to Bolshevism.

In order to carry out this plan of allowing Germany to drive eastward against Russia, it was necessary to do three things:

(1) to liquidate all the countries standing between Germany and Russia;
(2) to prevent France from honoring her alliances with these countries;  and
(3) to hoodwink the English people into accepting this as a necessary, indeed, the only solution to the international problem.

The Chamberlain group were so successful in all three of these things that they came within an ace of succeeding, and failed only because of the obstinacy of the Poles, the unseemly haste of Hitler, and the fact that at the eleventh hour the Milner Group realized the implications of their policy and tried to reverse it...

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.