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Russia's attack disproportionate

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russia's attack disproportionate
    Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:47
Calm down.
 
Originally posted by Majkes

 
 
LOL Are You joking? that is what they teach You in school??
 
I consider myself educated enough to make my own opinion. I was told at schools in much different things.
 
 
You don't understand what is independence. The thing is we can do what we want now and American tanks won't visit our capital. Quite diffrent case is with Russia.  
If we want to support American policy we can do it and it doesn't mean we are not independent.
Apparently you don't understand it either. If Poland suddenly turns to support Russia, exit NATO and start negotiation with Russia to use Plish bases for Russian troops USA immidiately will start organizing "Revolution of Krakow sausages". You do not see a difference in support of American policy and being American puppet (not my term, I do not like it actually). Apparently you do not realize that stoping of "licking the boot" (this is not my terminology again) you started to "lick another boot" and honestly I do not understand why do you think it is sweeter than the previous one.
 
If You see no diffrence between Poland in NATO and in Warsaw Pact that is a problem of your lack of politics understanding. I can't help You.
I do not ask for your help. Tempting, but no, thnx. And yes, I do not see any difference between NATO and Warsaw pact indeed. These are military unions of two different geopolitical powers against one another. One is regulated by Washington another by Moscow. No difference in strategies, same propaganda shit, wars, casualties in third side countries for gaining some geopolitical benefits here and there.  One supported "kommunism" another "democracy". None of them actually give a sh..t abouth those ideologies. No difference. At all.
 
Your opinions about economical adventures in USSR times are so stupid that it's hard to discuss it.
It is hard to discuss with such argumentation indeed.
 
I remember Poland now and in Communism times, we do better without USSR's help. In the past Poland couldn't use Marshal plan cause USSR forbid it, instead we get nothing.
Before WWII Poland was richer than Spain after USSR's help it became poorer.
I am kinda stupid as you say  yet, one should not have IQ of 200 to understand that WWII didn't have same absolute effect on all European countries. "Is it what you were tought at school? LOL " 
 
Besides now Poland is much more wealthier and better off. Polish are much richer so what are you talking about? What economical advantages?
 
I repeate the same question again. Why then you, wealthy Poles, create so much fuss about your rotten pork not being accepted in Russian markets and call new oil pipes as "Molotow-Ribentrop pact"?
 
You pick some facts that suits You and omit those who don't.
No I didn't. In contrast to many Eastern Europeans I not only recognize bad sides of everything what happened but do not blindly demonize USSR in every aspect. I see the difference between USSR and Russia whereas nationalistic Baltic and Polish people do not see. I see that Russia is a power you will have to take into account and it is better to communicate rather than constantly contradict in everything and support rusophobic histeria. Hence, picking up the facts:  to support my major claim -- USSR was not absolutely evil, didn't bring only bad for Warsaw pact countries and was never a nationalistic state where Russians played a major role. If you do not realize that my goal is not to prove that USSR was a paradize than I waste my time,
 
Like Temujin mentioned USSR gave Poland Western territory ( that were Germans before, not a big sacrifise to give something that is not Yours ) but You forgot to mention USSR grabbed even more land that Poland had on the EAST. 
Where are they now I wonder.
 
 
P.S. I know we would be in front line in case of war but that is our geographical disadvantage and we can do nothing about it.
Yes you can.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 00:57
Originally posted by Sarmat12

There is no doubt that the Polish economy is much better now and that Poland was oppressed by the USSR.
 
But how it helps the current problem?
 
Should Polish people always think about Russia with hate now because of the USSR?
 
Will it bring Poles more happiness?
 
I don't understand why both new Poland and new Russia can't build new relations without always reminding each other who did what.
 
I agree with you. We should look in the future not in the past. Polish people don't hate Russians. Why would we? Russians suffered under communism even more than Polish cause they were closer to the core.
The problem are politicians. Some Polish are anti Russian like Kaczynski but some are not Like Tusk ( prime minister ). Unfortunately Putin who has most of power in Russia is defenately anti Polish. He didn't do anything for our relations even didn't visited Poland.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 01:01
Originally posted by Sarmat12

There is no doubt that the Polish economy is much better now and that Poland was oppressed by the USSR.  
 
This is incorrect comparison.  The question is how would Polish economy and state be developed without being under USSR. I do not agree to believe by default that it would turn into some kind of Germany like economical superpower. You never know.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 02:44
Originally posted by Majkes

 
I agree with you. We should look in the future not in the past. Polish people don't hate Russians. Why would we? Russians suffered under communism even more than Polish cause they were closer to the core.
The problem are politicians. Some Polish are anti Russian like Kaczynski but some are not Like Tusk ( prime minister ). Unfortunately Putin who has most of power in Russia is defenately anti Polish. He didn't do anything for our relations even didn't visited Poland.
 
Clap
I praise your statement and hope most of the Polish people will think like you.
We don't need any conflicts and misunderstanding with Poles. We want to develop new better relations and look for the better future.
 
And I'm grateful for your understanding that Russian people suffered the most from the communist terror.
 
I hope Russophobes in Poland and Polophobes in Russia will become extinct Smile
 
As about Putin, it's really hard to say whom to blame. You're mistaken about Putin cause he visited Poland in 2002 exactly in order to improve the relations.
 
However, I agree that personalities are very important to the relations between the 2 countries. Seems that Poland and Russia had much better relations during Kwasnewki's times than under infamous brothers.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 08:54
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
 
Hehe... Why do you think the revolution happened in Cuba or in Nicaragua and why Americans are disliked in Korea?
 
In a lot of 3d wolrd countries American policies just have been "suck off the resources and support whatever bastard as long as he is pro-American"

I agree on Cuba (I don't know lot about situation in Nicaragua), but I don't think Americans are really disliked in Korea, because as far as I have read South Koreans perfectly understand that it was USA which saved them from North Korea in war, otherwise they would become part of that crazy communist monarchy they have in north part of Korea. Now thanks to Americans they are one of the worlds most technologically advanced countries.


That was in Iran before the 1979 and that is happening now in Georgia.

Thats hard to answer. I would like to hear opinions of Iranis about - if shah had stayed in throne till now - would Iran be more developed by now?
 
Why, it's simplistic, which problems are unresolved? I don't see any except anti-Russian paranoia problem

I will likely answer this later once I have contacted one of my Polish friends. For example the same Katyn problem is still unresolved because Russians are denying Polish historians  to access to SU archives.


What are you laughing about? You logic is simple.You can shoot a Russian, it's fine. But Russia can't shoot back he is an ultimate evil

No, I mean do you really believe that Russians didn't know before that Georgia will invade S.Osetia? Otherwise you are undermining the skill of KGB. Before this war even Russia was massing armies in Caucasus frontier (official reason was some military wargame exercises).


So in your opinion, Germany, Turkey or Finland which have quite good relations with Russia are licking its boots LOL.
 
It just shows the level or your bias...

I would call the Finland's policy after WWII called Finlandization as licking boots of course not literally.
Schroder had very good relationships with Russia indeed Wink, but when Merkel became kancler the relationships slightly worsened imo.

But it all comes down to realpolitik, especially for Russian border states. Look at Belarus, though it is hard to answer if they are in fact licking Russian boots, since even Putin in his comments to Belarus is rather indiferent, especially when he commented the economical situation in Belarus and possible union with Russia. Batka is too greedy for sure, but instead of changing Belarus system Russians continue to support him instead of opposition.
Though one day I guess Russians might become fed up with kolhoznik Lukashenko and donating (gas and oil prices) his artifical communist museum.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 09:25
So in your opinion, Germany, Turkey or Finland which have quite good relations with Russia are licking its boots LOL.
 
Turkey is politically not has good relation with Russia. It is just trade. Turkey is against almost ever russian political aims. Lets not missunderstood it. (I think, Germany and Finland thing can be also same..)
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 15-Aug-2008 at 09:36
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 09:56
Originally posted by Mortaza

So in your opinion, Germany, Turkey or Finland which have quite good relations with Russia are licking its boots LOL.
 
Turkey is politically not has good relation with Russia. It is just trade. Turkey is against almost ever russian political aims. Lets not missunderstood it. (I think, Germany and Finland thing can be also same..)
 
 

Fully agree. Trade makes business partners, not allies.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 10:20
Originally posted by Anton

Calm down.
 
I'm calm, don't worry.
 
Originally posted by Majkes

 
 
LOL Are You joking? that is what they teach You in school??
 
I consider myself educated enough to make my own opinion. I was told at schools in much different things.
 
ok
 
 
Apparently you don't understand it either. If Poland suddenly turns to support Russia, exit NATO and start negotiation with Russia to use Plish bases for Russian troops USA immidiately will start organizing "Revolution of Krakow sausages". You do not see a difference in support of American policy and being American puppet (not my term, I do not like it actually). Apparently you do not realize that stoping of "licking the boot" (this is not my terminology again) you started to "lick another boot" and honestly I do not understand why do you think it is sweeter than the previous one.
 
I doubt that. US don't have means to do something like thta. It never happend in Europe, Your opinion is sensless. Do You think US forced Germany to elect Merkel and France sarkozy cause Chirac and Shroeder were anti US?
 
I do not ask for your help. Tempting, but no, thnx. And yes, I do not see any difference between NATO and Warsaw pact indeed. These are military unions of two different geopolitical powers against one another. One is regulated by Washington another by Moscow. No difference in strategies, same propaganda shit, wars, casualties in third side countries for gaining some geopolitical benefits here and there.  One supported "kommunism" another "democracy". None of them actually give a sh..t abouth those ideologies. No difference. At all.
 
You are partially right but USSR hegemony in Warsaw pact was much bigger than US in NATO. Besides NATO we wanted to join and Warsaw Pact we were forced to join.
 
I am kinda stupid as you say  yet, one should not have IQ of 200 to understand that WWII didn't have same absolute effect on all European countries. "Is it what you were tought at school? LOL " 
 
Spain had civil war, very bloody if You don't know. Poland would be much better if not communism. That is obvious. What do I have to explain here. Russia probably as well.
 
 
I repeate the same question again. Why then you, wealthy Poles, create so much fuss about your rotten pork not being accepted in Russian markets and call new oil pipes as "Molotow-Ribentrop pact"?
 
From the same reason Chenese protest when there are customs in a trade or Americans protest when Europe doesn't want to buy genetically modificated food. Because it's bad for our economy. I'm not here to give You economy lesson but we act as every country in such situation though this things doesn't make our economy collapse. Pipe is of course anti polish and anti baltic. Why to build more expansive way through the sea omitting Balts and Poland if not to be able in the future cut off the gas to Eastern Europe without cutting it off to the West.
We protest cause it's not good for us. Simple as that
 
No I didn't. In contrast to many Eastern Europeans I not only recognize bad sides of everything what happened but do not blindly demonize USSR in every aspect. I see the difference between USSR and Russia whereas nationalistic Baltic and Polish people do not see. I see that Russia is a power you will have to take into account and it is better to communicate rather than constantly contradict in everything and support rusophobic histeria. Hence, picking up the facts:  to support my major claim -- USSR was not absolutely evil, didn't bring only bad for Warsaw pact countries and was never a nationalistic state where Russians played a major role. If you do not realize that my goal is not to prove that USSR was a paradize than I waste my time,
[/QUOTE]
 
I didn't say it was nationalistic as well as other things You say. USSr was better than Nazi Germany for us because I doubt it was better for Russians, nevertheless it was almost pure evil.
 
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 10:23
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
  
Clap
I praise your statement and hope most of the Polish people will think like you.
We don't need any conflicts and misunderstanding with Poles. We want to develop new better relations and look for the better future.
 
And I'm grateful for your understanding that Russian people suffered the most from the communist terror.
 
I hope Russophobes in Poland and Polophobes in Russia will become extinct Smile
 
As about Putin, it's really hard to say whom to blame. You're mistaken about Putin cause he visited Poland in 2002 exactly in order to improve the relations.
 
However, I agree that personalities are very important to the relations between the 2 countries. Seems that Poland and Russia had much better relations during Kwasnewki's times than under infamous brothers.
[/QUOTE]
 
ThanksApprove. You are right about Putin's visit, I forgot about it.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 10:24
Originally posted by Roberts


Fully agree. Trade makes business partners, not allies.
 
Allies as well. Look at recent maneures of French and Russian navies in Sea of Japan.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 10:46
I doubt that. US don't have means to do something like thta. It never happend in Europe, Your opinion is sensless. Do You think US forced Germany to elect Merkel and France sarkozy cause Chirac and Shroeder were anti US?
 
And revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia happened itself without sponsoring from USA :)
 
You are partially right but USSR hegemony in Warsaw pact was much bigger than US in NATO. Besides NATO we wanted to join and Warsaw Pact we were forced to join.
Yes, but the final outcome is the same.
 
Spain had civil war, very bloody if You don't know. Poland would be much better if not communism. That is obvious. What do I have to explain here. Russia probably as well.
I do not see any reason to suggest that. You would have plenty of opportunitiesw to turn into some kind of dictatorship either right or left (I do not see a difference) as it was in Spain or would have a civil war as in Greece or something else.
 
From the same reason Chenese protest when there are customs in a trade or Americans protest when Europe doesn't want to buy genetically modificated food. Because it's bad for our economy. I'm not here to give You economy lesson but we act as every country in such situation though this things doesn't make our economy collapse. Pipe is of course anti polish and anti baltic. Why to build more expansive way through the sea omitting Balts and Poland if not to be able in the future cut off the gas to Eastern Europe without cutting it off to the West.
We protest cause it's not good for us. Simple as that
 
The way how you do that indicates it will have signifficant impact on your economy. Pipeline is built because of unsure behaviour of Ukranians, Poles and Balts, their clear anti Russian actions which make all these piplines unsecure.
 
I didn't say it was nationalistic as well as other things You say. USSr was better than Nazi Germany for us because I doubt it was better for Russians, nevertheless it was almost pure evil.
I do not mean you but most of East Europeans. After Stalin's death USSR was not almost pure devil at all.  Anyway how is all this related to modern Russia? I do not understand these paralleles with USSR. Especially these accusations in imperialism.  Russia is trying to keep her interests, why do you disagree with that? Do you recognize that missile shield close to Russian borders is not a friendly move and Russia might react to this by economical pressure on Poland? What will you say then?
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 12:00
Originally posted by Anton

 
And revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia happened itself without sponsoring from USA :)
 
Hard to call free election revolution. At least now those who really win election in Ukraine will create goverment. If Yanukowycz wins he will be president.
 
I do not see any reason to suggest that. You would have plenty of opportunitiesw to turn into some kind of dictatorship either right or left (I do not see a difference) as it was in Spain or would have a civil war as in Greece or something else.
 
There wouldn't be any civil war in Poland. Communists had very small support. Dictatorship would turn in democracy eventually like in Spain. It was also dictature until the 70s. I don't know why do You think we would be the only poor, none communist country in Europe? Facts deny Your words.
 
The way how you do that indicates it will have signifficant impact on your economy. Pipeline is built because of unsure behaviour of Ukranians, Poles and Balts, their clear anti Russian actions which make all these piplines unsecure.
 
We used means we have so we are treated like others EU members. This is called free trade. If Russia wants to join WTO must obey those rules. If You really be;lieve that Polish economy is based on selling meat to Russia then like I said before I'm not here for giving You economy lessons that apparently You really need. as to pipeline Poland and Baltic states are very stable. There is no way Poland could turn off the gas to Germany and other West Europeans countries. don't speak nonsens. The reason of building pipeline through Baltic is as I said before. Russia have right to do it, we have a right to oppose it.
 
 
 
I do not mean you but most of East Europeans. After Stalin's death USSR was not almost pure devil at all.  Anyway how is all this related to modern Russia? I do not understand these paralleles with USSR. Especially these accusations in imperialism.  Russia is trying to keep her interests, why do you disagree with that? Do you recognize that missile shield close to Russian borders is not a friendly move and Russia might react to this by economical pressure on Poland? What will you say then?
[/QUOTE]
 
I don't support shield in Poland but after Georgia the deal with US will be done for sure but Poland is not in Russian sphere of bussiness. Though I don't know how shield would threaten RussiaConfused? It is not able to stop Russian nuclear neither air power. Frankly speaking it's a waste of money for Poland and US and completely useless, another Bush "great invention".
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 12:15
Originally posted by Majkes



 
I don't support shield in Poland but after Georgia the deal with US will be done for sure but Poland is not in Russian sphere of bussiness. Though I don't know how shield would threaten RussiaConfused? It is not able to stop Russian nuclear neither air power. Frankly speaking it's a waste of money for Poland and US and completely useless, another Bush "great invention".
 

Apparently Poland and the US just signed the deal. Guess this is the first effect of the Georgian mess.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 12:32
Hard to call free election revolution. At least now those who really win election in Ukraine will create goverment. If Yanukowycz wins he will be president.
It was not free election. Besides, in Georgia latest election were far from being free.
 
There wouldn't be any civil war in Poland. Communists had very small support. Dictatorship would turn in democracy eventually like in Spain. It was also dictature until the 70s. I don't know why do You think we would be the only poor, none communist country in Europe? Facts deny Your words.
Because other countries are not Poland. You cannot extrapolate their results for your country.
 
We used means we have so we are treated like others EU members. This is called free trade. If Russia wants to join WTO must obey those rules. If You really be;lieve that Polish economy is based on selling meat to Russia then like I said before I'm not here for giving You economy lessons that apparently You really need.
No I do not believe that. You misunderstood me. But access to Russian market is important for Poland.
 
 as to pipeline Poland and Baltic states are very stable. There is no way Poland could turn off the gas to Germany and other West Europeans countries. don't speak nonsens. The reason of building pipeline through Baltic is as I said before. Russia have right to do it, we have a right to oppose it.
How could you be stable countries in respect to Russia if all your actions prove the opposite? Obviously you have rigth to oppose it indeed, but apparently it is your fault that you create such a situation when you are in a position to oppose.
 
Though I don't know how shield would threaten RussiaConfused? It is not able to stop Russian nuclear neither air power. Frankly speaking it's a waste of money for Poland and US and completely useless, another Bush "great invention".
Frankly speaking, yes. At present, these missiles are not able to stop Russian ones. However this is a percedent and in future much more powerfull (in case if they be invented) missiles might be placed in Poland and then it shifts all balance between Russia and States.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 12:41
At present, these missiles are not able to stop Russian ones.


See:

http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopoli
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopo
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 12:51
...The movement toward professionalization of the armed forces and the resulting lowering of the intensity of conflict is part of a much larger process deriving from the nuclear and Superpower stalemate between the Soviet Union and the United States.

The danger of nuclear destruction will continue and become, if anything, more horrifying, but will, for this very reason, become a more remote and less likely probability.

In the late 1960's the United States will have about 1,700 vehicles (missiles and SAC planes) targeted on the Soviet bloc; but the 1970's this will rise to about 2,400. Moreover, by 1970, 650 of these will be Polaris missiles on our 41 nuclear submarines, which cannot be found and eliminated by any Soviet missile counterstrike, once they are submerged at sea.

The great value of the Polaris over its land-based rivals, such as Minuteman, is that the Soviet Union knows where the latter are and can counter-target on them. This means that the MM’s must be fired out of their silos before the Soviet warheads, seeking them out to destroy them, can arrive fifteen minutes after takeoff. Such a precarious position encourages nervous anticipation and possibility of precipitate action, capable of beginning a war no one really wants.

Thus, on an enormously greater scale, we have something like the von Schlieffen Plan that made it necessary for Germany to attack France in 1914 when there was no real issue justifying resort to war between them.

The Polaris missiles at sea, since they cannot be found and counter-forced, can be delayed, without need to strike first or even to strike second in immediate retaliation, but can be held off for hours, days, and weeks, compelling the Soviet to negotiate even after the original Soviet strike has devastated America's cities. Thus the Soviet Union cannot win in a nuclear exchange, even if they make the first strike.

The reverse is also true. In the mid-1960's the Soviet Union has vehicles able to deliver up to six hundred or seven hundred nuclear warheads on the United States and perhaps seven hundred or eight hundred on our European allies. Their warheads are larger than ours (with up to 100-megaton ICBM's, while our largest are 9 MT).

In spite of the fact that their missile sites arc poorly organized, with missiles, fuel, crews, and warheads widely scattered, so that they arc at least twelve hours from takeoff even in their fourtl1 stage of readiness, the inaccuracy of our counter-force missiles is so great that we could not eliminate all their missiles, even if we made a first strike with no warning.

It would require only about 200 Soviet warheads to devastate our cities totally, and an American strike at Soviet missile bases delivered without warning would leave almost that number not eliminated; these would be free to make a retaliatory strike at us. Moreover, the Soviets have several dozen Polaris-type submarines that can fire four missiles each from surfaced positions. Many of these would survive an American unannounced first strike.

All this means that we are as much deterred by the Soviet missile threat as they must be by our much greater threat.

Such deterrence has nothing to do with the relative size of the numbers of missiles possessed by two countries.

It rests on whether an unannounced first strike would leave surviving enough missiles for a retaliatory strike capable of inflicting unacceptable damage.

This is now the situation on both sides, and the existence of Polaris-type missiles makes it impossible to avoid this by striving for greater numbers of missiles, for larger warheads able to obliterate wide areas, or for greater accuracy that would increase the statistical possibility of eliminating enemy missiles on first strike.

Thus no one will wish to make such a strike. Possibly for this reason, about a year after the Cuban missile crisis, the Soviet Union ceased to work on new missile bases and accepted its permanent inferiority to the United States. But the mutual veto on the use of missiles, the nuclear stalemate, remained.

This stalemate between the two Superpowers on the use of nuclear weapons also extended to their use of lesser, non-nuclear, weapons, so that the nuclear stalemate became a Superpower stalemate.

This meant that much of the power of the Soviet Union and the United States, and not merely their nuclear po\ver, was neutralized to a considerable degree, since each feared to use its non-nuclear powers for fear they might escalate into nuclear conflict.

This meant that the use of nuclear tactical weapons and the use even of conventional tactical weapons were inhibited to an undetermined degree by the presence of nuclear strategic weapons no one wanted to see used.

The costs of using nuclear tactical weapons are so great that it is very doubtful if they are worth the cost. For example, the Western Powers lack the conventional forces to stop any intrusion of the great masses of Soviet ground forces if these began to drive westward in an attempt to conquer Germany. The West is committed to oppose such an effort.

Since it is very doubtful that the NATO forces could oppose this successfully by using only conventional weapons, there would be great pressure to use the nuclear tactical weapons that NATO forces in Europe possess.

It has been estimated that the chief targets of such nuclear tactical weapons would be bridges and similar narrow passages, in an effort to close these to Soviet advances. But it seems clear that if these passages were closed and the bridges destroyed, the advance of the Soviet armies (in armored and mechanized divisions) would be held up only a few weeks at most, and up to so million Germans would be killed from the blast and side effects of the use of nuclear weapons. At such a cost, the Germans would probably prefer not to be defended...

http://real-world-news.org/bk


If USA builds the missile defense shield in europe, it will destroy the nuclear stalemate and alter the balance of military power in favour of USA. 

That is why Russia opposes it.




Edited by Bankotsu - 15-Aug-2008 at 12:54
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 16:29
Originally posted by Mortaza

Turkey is politically not has good relation with Russia. It is just trade. Turkey is against almost ever russian political aims. Lets not missunderstood it. (I think, Germany and Finland thing can be also same..)
 
It's not obvious from the facts. Why would the Turkish prime-minster just recently talk about the importance of "solidarity with Russia" or Turkish president expresses condolescence to the victims in South Ossetia. This position is a sharp contrast with many Eastern European countries who are just very critical of Russia and put all the blame for the recent conflict on its sholders.
Σαυρομάτης
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