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Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?
    Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:00
Originally posted by Roberts

They are? I thought that group was highly hypothetical.
Well, this group means simply common origin. Obviously all indoeuropean languages have common origin but those two (baltic and slavonic) splitted from each other later than from the rest.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:04
Originally posted by Chilbudios

[quote]
Vlahov links various Thracian roots (bur-, -per, -poris) to Bulgarian words on the basis of some questionable similarities, often ignoring vowels or various other etymological considerations taken in account by other scholars. Detschew and Duridanov have a different approach on these words. So, between Detschew's well informed and balanced linguistical analysis and Vlahov's approach, I find the latter very speculative. Here Cyrus did the same with Iranic and Germanic Tongue
 
Duridanov finds similarities between Slavonic and Thracian in his book as well:
"

 2.4. Thracian, Baltic and Slavic

It is not a surprise that there are some Slavic analogies to the Thraco-Baltic parallels. Baltic and Slavic and closely related and are sometimes grouped together in a Balto-Slavic group. Here are some parallels:

– the Thracian PN Brinkazis, Brinkainos, the Slavic PN Brzek, Brzeko (Polish), Brekoja (Bulg.) and the Lith. VN (from FN) Brinkiškiai.

– the Thracian PN Kersēs, Kersos, the Old-Pruss. PN Kerse, Kerso (from kéršas 'on white and black spots'), and the Slavic PN Črch (Czech) (from the Old-Slavic *čьrchь), the Bulgarian Chernjo (from cheren 'black').

– the Thracian VN Kurpisos, the Lith. VN Kurpai, Kurpikai, etc., and the Bulgarian VN Kərpec (from the Old-Slavic *kərp-), the Russian korpatь 'to dig up', the Ukrainian korpati 'to dig, to rummage'.

– the Thracian tribe name Trausoi is identical to the Old-Latv. FN Trousz from the Latv. traušs 'friable', similar to the Lith. traušus 'friable, fragile' and the Old-Russian PN Truha, Trushь, the Old-Russian tronhə 'lazy, sad'.

– the first element in the Thracian VN Tarpo-dizos and the Lith. tárpas 'an interstice, an interspace' and the Church-Slavic trapə, the Bulgarian trap 'a ditch, a pit' (from the Old-Slavic *tǎrpə). "

 
Don't you find that Thracian will have parallels with Iranic and German? Here you some Duridanov's:

 2.5. Thracian and German

Specifically Thraco-German are the following parallels:

– the Thracian bólinthos 'a wild bull, a bison', and the Middle-German Bulle.

– the Thracian -thurd(a)- in the deity names Zbel-thurdos, Zbel-Thiurdos, and the Old-HighGerman sturzen, the Middle-HighGerman stürzen 'to push, to crash down'.

– the Thracian PN Mellai, -cella in Syra-cella, -kela in *Saldo-kela, and the Old-HighGerman quella 'a spring', the German Quelle.

– the Thracian skálmē 'a knife, a sword', and the Old-Icel. skolm 'a short sword, a knife'. The related words in other IE languages (the Greek skalmós, the Hittite kalmišana-, etc.) have different meanings and were not taken into account.

2.6. Thracian, Baltic and German

There are several such parallels:

– the Thracian PN Bérēs and the Lith. bėras 'brown', the river name Brė, the Latv. bẽrs 'brown (for horses)', the PN Bēr-upe, and the Old-HighGerman bero, the Anglo-Sax. bera, the German Bär 'a bear' (with an initial meaning 'brown').

– the Thracian daph- in the VN Daphabae, the Lith. dãpas 'a flood', and the Old-Icel. dafla 'to slap in the water; to splash', the Norw. dial. dave 'a puddle, a pool'.

– the Thracian VN Dingion, the Old-Pruss. PN Dinge, the Latv. dinga 'a plant; a fertile ground', and the Old-HighGerman tunga 'manuring'.

– the Thracian VN Kabýlē, the Old-Pruss. RN Cabula (instead of *Gabula), and the English quab.

 

 2.7. Thracian and Indo-Iranian

There are not too many parallels:

– the Thracian -dama in the VN Uscu-dama is explained from the IE *dhəmā and is compared to the Old-Indian dhāman- 'a place for living', the Avestan daman 'a place, a country'.

– the Thracian -diza, -dizos 'a fortress' in VN Tyro-diza, Kisti-dizos, Tarpo-dizos, and the Avestan pairi-daēza- 'a fence', the Old-Persian didā 'a fortress'.

also
– the Thracian PN Byzas, Byzēs, the Avestan būza 'a goat', the New-Persian buz 'a goat', and the Armenian buz 'a lamb'.

– the Thracian VN Perinthos, the Old-Ind. párvata- 'a mountains, a rock, a stone', the Avestan paurvata- 'a mountain', and the Hittite peruna- 'a rock'.

 Smile

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:16
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.


Phrygian resembles Thracian, Greek, and Armenian languages.
 
There is another proposition, slightly different. Germ means warm water. In this respect one could remember water celebration called German that is celebrated in Bulgaria, North of Greece and Romania (I do not know how is it called there though.)
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:39
Duridanov finds similarities between Slavonic and Thracian in his book as well:
But these are not Vlahov's. Do you care about the arguments they make or you just enjoy when a scholar concludes Thracian has similarities with Slavic languages? Wink
 
Such lexical similarities are common among all IE languages. Vlahov was pushing further to say there were certain Thracian compounds showing consistently similarities with Slavic.
 
Don't you find that Thracian will have parallels with Iranic and German?
I actually referred to this:


Edited by Chilbudios - 30-Aug-2008 at 18:43
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by Chilbudios

But these are not Vlahov's. Do you care about the arguments they make or you just enjoy when a scholar concludes Thracian has similarities with Slavic languages? Wink
Here is the border where I stop to appreciate your humour. I personally do not care if they are similar or not. It simply doesn't mean anything to me. I also believe, I do not have enough education to judge linguistic analysis myself. Kinda think, you don't have it either.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 19:54
Originally posted by Anton

Here is the border where I stop to appreciate your humour. I personally do not care if they are similar or not. It simply doesn't mean anything to me. I also believe, I do not have enough education to judge linguistic analysis myself. Kinda think, you don't have it either.
 It's a leit motif of your posts here that Thracian has some significant closeness to Slavic (you also supported this on the thread on the Second Bulgarian Empire). I pointed some flaws in the arguments of Vlahov (if you don't have enough education to judge linguistic arguments, how can you asses others' capacity to do that?) and I did not get any counter-arguments.
And as you don't trust me, why don't your read Polome's chapter on Balkan languages from CAH volume III.1 or other scholars to see for yourself, through peer-review, how much Vlahov's conclusions really worth (he's actually quoted by Polome with two works, both on Thracian toponymy, but nothing is said - neither from Vlahov, nor from other "enthusiast" scholars like Alinei, Mayer et al. - about alleged Thracian closeness to other languages, especially Slavic)?  


Edited by Chilbudios - 30-Aug-2008 at 21:10
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:07
Originally posted by Chilbudios

It's a leit motif of your posts here that Thracian has some significant closeness to Slavic (you also supported this on the thread on the Second Bulgarian Empire).
 
The leit motif of my posts here was to share some books with those who were interested. I am sorry you didn't understand that. Neither did I sugest closeness to Slavic. Mate, you are like a bolynthos when arguing. LOL
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:11
LOL, that was actually funny.
A thracian word that could create a new pan-balkan expression or at least a AE balkan expression. I think i will use it in the future if needed. LOL


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:22
Originally posted by Anton

The leit motif of my posts here was to share some books with those who were interested. I am sorry you didn't understand that. Neither did I sugest closeness to Slavic. Mate, you are like a bolynthos when arguing.
I see only one post with books, that hardly counts for a leit motif.
 
So the all these similarities between Thracian and Slavic (sometimes through a Baltic proxy), the substantial number of Thracian speakers existent at the end of Late Antiquity (ready to meet the Bulgarians), the common(!) substratum between Bulgarian, Romanian, and Albanian, are not about closeness. 
 
Play your games, Anton, I'll just bring my objections and perhaps you might get upset again that my horns were too sharp.
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 21:29
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Play your games, Anton, I'll just bring my objections and perhaps you might get upset again that my horns were too sharp.
 
 
I respect your objections and sometimes agree with them. Horns is different thing. They are full of accusation in nationalism and more sharp they are the less I would be proud of them if I were you. Smile
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 22:01
Originally posted by Anton

Sarmat, according to Maria Gimbutas there are archeological evidences of contacts between Slavs and Thracians. I mean not ones in Balkans but also much earlier on northern border between Thracian and Slavonic populations.
 
This seems very possible to me.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 23:36
Originally posted by Anton

I respect your objections and sometimes agree with them. Horns is different thing. They are full of accusation in nationalism and more sharp they are the less I would be proud of them if I were you
I only pointed out how often you suggested Thracian is related/similar/close to Slavic, don't you think you overreact?
 
 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 01:44
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I only pointed out how often you suggested Thracian is related/similar/close to Slavic, don't you think you overreact?
 
No.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 01:56
Well, there is so few words that are supposed to be Thracian left, that one cannot really say anything with any degree of security. Here is an article on the translation of the golden ring from Ezerovo
 http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/EZERO2.jpg
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf
Here is another one, http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf  that uses the few Thracian words for geographical features to try to prove that the Slavs were the "indigenous population of the area" something that I don't buy.

The first article talk about connections and similarities of Thracian to both Greek and Slavic languages, but I had heard to connected to Baltic languages, Teutonic, modern Macedonian, whatever - when you have only few words from one language left, it's a fair game for anyone with an agenda to give it a try. All I can say is that it was probably Indo-European, but even that is not sure, considering that the pre-Greek population of the Balkans was heavily connected with Anatolia. The Thracians were culturally close to Mycenean Greece, and as such their language may as well have been close to Anatolian languages. They lived together with/next to  Greeks, their elites became Hellenized to a point, so Greeks words would be borrowed into it, but this doesn't make it close to Greek per se.

It's very possible the few supposedly Thracian words to have been borrowing from Greek or later from Slavs, when the Slavs hit the area in like 6-7 century AD, so what do we have to work wit? Next to zero. No one can make a respectable educated guess on so sparse and unsecure info.

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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 02:31

I have just found this which might be of some interest:



Thracian Sacred Names and Terminology

To the memory of Gheorghe Mușu, magister mirabilis

Introduction

The present paper aims at putting together the relevant forms referring 

to the Thracian god-names and sacred terminology as known from various

sources.  We shall  try  to  make  justice  and  condensely  present  the  main

hypothesis of late Prof. Gheorghe Mușu, whose remarkable studies in the

field  of  comparative  religion  and  linguistics  are  little,  if  at  all,  known 

abroad; and refer to some of our previous studies.

It is understandable that the lexicon below is not complete, but tries to 

present  the  most  relevant  forms.  It  concentrates  on  the  Thracian 

terminology, but also to the Phrygian and Illyrian terms as far as they may 

prove relevant; and sometimes to the Greek deities if, in various sources, 

they  may  have  a  certain  Thracian  influence  in  their  cult  or  may  be

etymologically relevant.

As a synthetic brief work, it cannot explain many details; we tried to do

this on other occasions (see the references, mainly Paliga 1989 a, b, c; 1994 

a, b; etc). We should not forget that the complex Thracian beliefs, religion 

and  mythology  were recorded  by  various sources,  often  with  deformed 

spelling. There cannot be any doubt now that Thracian had specific sounds 

(e.g. č, ǧ, š, ť, at least a neutral vowel ə, maybe two in some dialects, etc.),

impossible to be accurately recorded in the Greek and Latin documents. A

possible  way  for  reconstructing  the  original  sounds  is  to  compare  the 

forms with  other  ancient languages, sometimes with forms  preserved in..........

http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/29535/30/ThrSacNames.pdf



Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 08-Mar-2012 at 02:40
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2012 at 20:33
I am Romanian and I read a lot about the Dacian substratum in Romanian language and the connection between Dacian and Thracian.

My opinions, without citing sources:
- many linguists believe Dacian language had sounds without equivalent in Greek and Latin alphabet, so the few Dacian words reproduced in Greek writings (most of them) are altered.

The sound 'ă' is commonly used in Romanian, while other neo-latin languages lack this sound or use it very rarely.
Similarily, this sound is often used in Bulgarian ('ъ' like in България), while other Slavic languages lack it or use it rarely.

Because of this discrepancy between Romanian and other latin languages, but also between Bulgarian and other Slavic languages, many linguists believe 'ă' was a sound frequently used in Dacian and Thracian languages.

----------------
The sound 'u' which is often used at the end of many Romanian names is encountered in 2 categories of names:
1) names inherited from Latin, thus 'u' is coming from 'us' termination: Iuliu, Ovidiu, Corneliu (from Iulius, Ovidius, Cornelius)
2) names with origin in common nouns with the enclitic definite article 'l' specific to Romanian language (from late Latin 'ille'):
Examples: 
Albu (from 'albul' = 'the white'; 'alb' = 'white')
Ursu (from 'ursul'='the bear'; 'urs' = 'bear') 
etc.
There may be other cases I am not aware of.

The main idea is that the post-posed (enclitic) definite article in Romanian is 'l' for masculin and masculin words usually end in a consonant, making impossible the pronunciation of 'l' at the end.
This is why the voyel 'u' was added was a link between masculin noun and its definite article.

Most feminin nouns ends in 'ă' (nominativ, without article) and with enclitic article they change the last sound 'ă' in 'a'.
Example: mamă -> mama (the mother)
Notable exceptions are feminin nouns ending in 'a' without article -> they use again the 'u' sound as link to the enclitic definite article 'a'/
Example: stea (from Latin stella - star) -> steaua (the star)

I hope I could explain the origin of the 'u' at the end of many Romanian masculin words:
- is just a link sound and probably has nothing to do with Thracian or Dacian languages.


Edited by danielstan - 08-Oct-2012 at 20:53
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  Quote vasile iuga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2012 at 07:11

Regarding if they really speach a common language ,well i must say no ,not even in a close relation

There is only one question

1 Did  balts wore included into Tracian group by ancient Historians? (Because to say that tracians wore the biggest group in the world is impossible with only dacian and south dialects (today Bulgaria ,Serbia ,Romania ,E Hungary ,Est Slovakia ,R Moldova and 1 tird of Ukraine) all this area covered by 4 dialects is to little to be more than India in size ,s mayybe they wore put together)

Tracians have 4 dialects 1 nordic(getae or dacian) and 3 south dialects ,so it's very unlikely that tracians come from the est ,it's more likely to come from Anatolia ,because is more probably that this 4 dialects try to expand and only one have manage that ,the norther one ,so it clearly a south north expand not a north south expand.And there are many elements to comfirme this origin (swastica,helmets some words common to phoenicians ,life stile etc)  

Another big argument is that Illyric language is very close to dacian dialect of the language ,so the separation of this two paleo-balkanic groups have occure in north Romania and Hungary ,after the other 3 dialects permanently setlle today Rumelia(thrace).

What about the balts?

Here is weid ,they have many cultural links to Romanians ,so clearly a ancient connection ,not in a cultural way but far more close ,because Doina is a very very important song in the old world of romanians ,because is about the past ,traditions,comunion,celebration of spring ,it not a anciant commercial song ,like Lady Gaga today ho you will pass to neughbors ,it's more like the songs of a football ultras tribune  today,Doina was there believes  ,was there songs about them ,so i tend to say that the balts wore minimum the north illyrians of Tracian culture ,and more likely annothere tracian group,the 5 dialect of the language.

Doina is a national song so you have no reason to song that tipe of song if you have not being part of that culture.

About slavs

they clearly come from est (Moscow-north Don basin ) they wore push west by some asian tribe ? they cut the daco-romanias from the balts ,push the balts north in there drive west ,they hit Carpathians ,thy split in 3  ,1 remain in today Gallicia and Podolia ,the others move west ,hit the germans and split in two ,another group traverse Est of Dacia and settle in Moesia.

They cut in two the daco-romanian population and they drive them south and west  from today Serbia and Moesia in today Muntenegru ,Albania <Greece,Croatia and Bosnia ,were they receive names like Megleno-Romanians,Istro and Aromanian etc.

In there drive ,Aromanians push albanians out of today Kosovo and Macedonia in moving them west to the sea,then they wore push even more south .

It was a domino effect.

When slavs comed ,tracian language was extinct ,the only thracian influence that they could have receive is from the daco-romanian language spoken in moesia Romania and Serbia ,who was still very linked to dacian language ,the only dacian comunitys who wore not influnced very hardly by latin wore in the north Tisa basin  very far from early south slavs.

The 3 south dialects of tracian language wore partialy extinct in the time of the Dacian conquest and totally helenized after the split of the empire in two

So more likely slavs come from another branch of indoeuropeans and took another path ,there is connection but in a low level(a connection like German language to Spanish in our days) ,they probably never encounter tracians or pure dacians ,and the resemblance with balts come from the influnces made on balts and romanians after VI VII century.They found a  daco-romanian language in Moesia where they first settle and a greek language south of Balkans ,so the influences come from this early dacian-romance language ho give romanian language a most likely influenced the slavic language that is today Bulgaria.

It's widely accepted that slavs drove some romanians(mostly the upper clases) out of Moesia  and Serbia ,and assimilated the rest of them ,while in N of Danube ,romanians asimilated slavs setlers.

I can make a more big prologue but i don't have time.

Why romania language resemble bulgarian not serbian language ,because slavs ho formed bulgarian laguage commed early and they have split romanians and assimilated Moesia ,Serbia ,the slavs ho formed Serbia commed latter after the ground was releas by the first wave and they come from west (slovachia Hungary ).



Edited by vasile iuga - 14-Dec-2012 at 08:15
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  Quote ilea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2016 at 15:15
Simple logic ..If Thracian language was not slavic ( Old Church Slavonic) than what was the need for creating The Glagolitic alphabet (aka Cyrillic Alphabet)  Кѷрїлловица (kyrillovitsa)?
  

Bulgarian claims from evidences dated 6th BC,  that Thracian language  from Ionian origin (Euboia   region


Thracian language  -  The key language is Old Bulgarian. Connections to other Slavic languages are also shown. Although short, the inscription on the Thracian golden ring provides us with enough information about the grammatical peculiarities of the Old Thracian language. These peculiarities are a useful tool for the purposes determining the ethnic affiliation of the people to whom Orpheus and Spartacus belonged. 

The present study of the Thracian language is based on an updated collection of epigraphic material found in Bulgaria. Our knowledge of the Thracian language comes from evidence that has been assembled by modern scholars throughout the last two centuries from two types of documents: literary documents derived from Greek and Latin writers and inscriptions. Owing to the fact that epigraphy has furnished less information, many scholars undertook investigations that were not based but on one principle, to find any form of indication leading to any possible information on the Thracian. Methodologically speaking, this kind of “thesaurus at any rate” has produced only more confusion extant in many writings to the present day. The multiplication of errors and misunderstandings dating from Antiquity to modern times is responsible for “rapprochements” of personal, god- and place-names in the vast area of the Mediterranean region using onomastic material, glosses or commentaries of ancient grammarians and lexicographers irrespectively.1 Therefore, the updated collection of epigraphic material found in Bulgaria is a kind of evidence that comes to reinforce our knowledge of Thracian names and Thracian words and phrases sporadically discovered and unveiled after years of scholarly work done by archaeologists, historians, and linguists. 

Yet another major difference lies in the effectiveness and clarity of the data accumulated; whereas in the past, criteria for words of Thracian language origin were based upon their being referred to as such by ancient Greek and Latin authors, in this study they must qualify and be listed as Thracian only if the inscriptions themselves indicate it. 

A few words are needed to set the background of Thracian linguistics. We dispose of no other resource but the inscriptions. Again, for practical reasons inscriptions in the Greek language are considered in establishing the inventory of Thracian onomastics. Latin forms of names coming from Latin inscriptions are more of a supportive nature for two reasons: for being late or because of the fact that Thracian settlements were following a Greek tradition throughout the Roman imperial period, keeping Greek and less so Latin in their everyday administrative activities, with only a few exceptions. The Greek inscriptions have a history of their own in Thrace proper. Their geography may well be divided in three major parts: (1) Thrace as part of present-day Bulgaria (2) Thrace as part of present-day Greece (and all of the Greek territories in Antiquity), and (3) Thrace in present-day Turkey along with Asia Minor where traces of Thracians were found in inscriptions. This division alone makes for the innumerable difficulties in presenting the material.48 The legends on a limited number of coins were used in this study. Their complexity requires a separate way of investigation, and the evidence they provide was utilized with caution.49 With many inscriptions found on metalwork, it became even more difficult to keep up with the line of equally treating all inscriptions and positive data at yield. For epigraphy developed its own way50 and therefore facts are hardly to be interpreted from a single point of view. For example, we cannot be sure that the value (in terms of alphabet reform, editing, and lettering) of an inscription found on the Athenian agora could be attributed automatically to an inscription found in Thrace. The situation is comparable to that found in similar fields, such as history of religion51 .

******************************************
Facts The golden ring of Ezerovo is presented in Figure 1. The text presented in Figure 1 is written in 8 lines in scriptio continua. The last line is engraved on the edge of the elliptical plate of the ring because of lack of space. The letters are 61 in number; they are clear and resemble those of the Greek alphabet [1], pp. 86, 87. They are: 

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ 
ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ 
ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ 
PΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ 
ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ 
ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ 
ΡΑΖ 
HΛΤΑ

The text from Thracian burial ring in the deployed state:

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛΤΕΑΝHΣΚΟΑΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥΠΤΑΜΙ ΗΕΡΑΖΗΛΤΑ Detchev concluded that the found artefacts were used in a burial ritual – consisting of a three-day wake, called by the Greeks protezis. Detchev compared the objects with others, from Trebenište, Macedonia, where another golden ring was found, and concluded that the ring from Ezerovo was made especially for the burial (for the funerary purpose alone) and not for everyday use, or as seal ring [2], p. 106. 178 In the past decades many translations were offered, but to date, none is generally accepted. Dechev (quoted by Duridanov [1] p. 88) suggested the following transcription: Rolesteneas Nerenea tiltean esko Arazea domean Tilezypta mie erazelta. That he translated into: Bulgarian (Cyrillic): Аз съм Ролистенеас, потомък на Неренеас,Тилезипта, аразийка по род ме предаде на земята (погреба ме) Bulgarian (Latinic): Az săm Rolisteneas, potomăk na Nereneas, Tilezipta, araziika po rod me predade na zemjata (pogreba me) English: I am Rolisteneas, progeny of Nereneas, Tilezipta - of Arazian clan, gave me to the earth (buried me). Georgiev suggested a different reading [2], p. 108: Rolistene, as Nerenea Tiltea nesko arazea do mean tilezyptam ie eraz elta. That he translated into: Bulgarian (Cyrillic): Ролистене, аз Неренея Тилтея умирам спокойно до (теб) моя блаженопочивши аз, която децата отхрани (отгледа) Bulgarian (Latinic): Rolistene, az Nerenea Tiltea umiram spokoino do (teb) moja blagopočivši, az kojato deĉata othrani (otgleda) English: Rolistene, I Nerenea Tiltea die calm near (you) my silent sleeping (husband), (me) who the children fed (brought up the children). ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ is interpreted by Georgiev [2], p. 108, as Thracian personal name in Vocative case consisting of two parts: ΡΟΛΙ and ΣΤΕΝΕ. He connects ΡΟΛΙ with Thracian personal name Ρωλής and the toponym Рολλι-γέράς, and the second part ΣΤΕΝΕ with the toponym Στένέ-κορτά. ΑΣ or АΣΝ Georgiev translates as I - me, corresponding to Old Bulgarian азъ (az) – I, me, Lithuanian ‘aš’ – I, me and Avestanic ‘azem’ – I am. About the part ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛΤΕΑ Georgiev isn’t very certain, he suggests two possibilities: ΝΕΡΕ (E) ΝΕΑ ΤΙ - your young wife. ΝΕΡΕ he connects with Sanskrit ‘nari’ – woman, wife, Albanian ‘njeri’ – human, and points the Albanian phrase ‘grue(ja) e re’ – young woman, wife, also the Rumanian ‘soţia cel tânǎrǎ’ – young wife. NEA Georgiev connects with Greek νέά – new, coming from Indo-European ‘newa’ – new, young. T(I) or T’ is connected with Albanian ‘ty’, ‘t’’, ‘të’, Rumanian ‘ţi’, and Bulgarian ‘ti’, all with the meaning – yours in Dative case. ΙΛΤΕΑ is connected with Rumanian ‘aleasa-a’ – the chosen one (-a is interpreted by Georgiev as a suffixed definitive article) with the suggestion that the Thracian variant of the hosen one was ΙΛΤΕ-Α (with -A as suffixed definitive article). But Georgiev considers also the possibility that ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛΤΕΑ was Thracian personal name: ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ ΤΙΛΤΕΑ. ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ is related to Latin personal names Neriene(s), Nerienis, Neria. ΤΙΛΤΕΑ is related to Thracian personal name Τιλθ-άζεις [2] p.109. The part ΝHΣΚΟ Georgiev connects with (Attic) Greek verb θνήσκω – I die. The following Α(P) ΡΑΖΕΑ Georgiev equates to A(N) PAZEA and translates AN as on, at. PAZE-A he interprets as line, row (here in Locative case) coming from Indo-European ‘rogi’ - line, direction, present in Vedic ‘raji’ – line, row, German ‘Reihe’ – row and 179 common Slavic ‘red’ – row. According to Georgiev PAZE-A has a suffixed definitive article as in ILTE-A. DO is connected with Latin ‘do’, Anglo-Saxon ‘to’, Lithuanian ‘do’ and Bulgarian ‘do’ - next, beside, up to. MEAN corresponds according to Georgiev to Latin ‘meum’, coming from Indo-European ‘meyo-m’ – mine, here in Accusative case. ΤΙΛΕΖΥΠΤΑM Georgiev interprets as silent – sleeping. ΤΙΛΕ he connects with Lithuanian ‘tylis’ – silent, calm, and ΖΙΠΤΑM with Sanskrit ‘supta-m’ – asleep, in Accusative case, and equates it with Bulgarian блаженопочивши (blazenopočivši) – died in peace. IH is equated to Greek ή – (this one) who, related to Old Phrygian ιος – (this one) who. HEPAZ means children according to Georgiev and is related with Phrygian έιροι – children. HLTA is translated as fed, brought up. HLTA → aluit – cared for, brought up (Thracian word, related to Latin ‘alo’ – I care for, I bring up [2], p. 108)


Etymology of the words 1. ROLI-STENE – Thracian personal name, here in Vocative case still preserved in Modern Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian, and Czech language. For male names the ending is E: Ivane = Hey Ivan! ; Petre = Hey Peter! [6], p. 24. Related to ROLI are the Thracian personal name Rolis and Oroles, corresponding to common Slavic word ‘orel’ – eagle and to Bulgarian personal name Орльо (Orljo) with the meaning eagle [7], p. 118. The part STEN can be connected with Bulgarian personal name ‘Стан’ (Stan) [7], p. 138. 2. AS – I, me corresponding to Old Bulgarian азъ (azǎ), Modern Bulgarian ‘аз’ (az) - I, Slovene ‘jaz’ – I, Lithuanian ‘aš’ – I and Avestanic ‘azem’ – I am. 3. NERE-NEA – female Thracian name with possible meaning strong one. It is derived 181 from Thracian word ‘aner’ man (strong one) and related to Gaulish ‘nertos’ strength, Hittite ‘innarumni’ strong, Luwian ‘innari’ strong, Sanskrit ‘nara’ man, ‘nari’ woman, and Bulgarian ‘nerez’ male animal (strong one). Other related Bulgarian word is ‘nestinarka’ dancing woman (it concerns a ritual dance on hot coals) In my opinion NERE is related to Bulgarian personal name Неранза (Neranza) [7], p. 116. The part NEA may correspond to Bulgarian personal name Нея (Neja) [7], p. 116. 4. TILTEANIS – Thracian family name with possible meaning: progeny of Teano. TIL is related to Old Bulgarian word тилище (tilište) - human, person, челядъ (čeljadă) - progeny, человекъ (čelovekă) – human. TEANO was female Thracian name. The wife of Antenor and daughter of Thracian king Cisseus was called Teano. As Slavic related anthroponyms I offer the Bulgarian personal names: Деян (Dejan) and Техан (Tehan). 5. KOA – who (fem. gender) corresponding to Modern Bulgarian коя (koja) - who (fem. gender), Slovene ‘kdo’ – who, Sanskrit ‘kah’– who, Luwian ‘kui’ – who also related. 6. RAZEA – wrote corresponding to Bulgarian verb реза, ряза (reza, rjaza) – wrote, carved (Aorist tense, 3-rd person singular of the verb режа (reža) – I cut, I make notches) Bulgarian words рез, ряз (rez, rjaz) – notch, mark, рисувам (risuvam) – I draw, I make lines, рисунка (risunka) drawing, образ (obraz) depiction, face. Slovenian words ‘rez’ – cut, ‘rezati’ – to cut, ‘rezba’ – woodcarving, ‘raziti’ – to scratch, and common Slavic verb ‘risuvati’ – to draw are also related. RAZEA is also related to Sanskrit words ‘rekha’ - notch, mark, ‘rekhati’ – to mark, to make notches. 7. DO - beside, next, corresponding to common Slavic word ‘do’ beside, next, up to. 8. MEAN – me, corresponding to Bulgarian мен, мене (men, mene) me, Slovenian ‘mene’ – me, Russ. меня (menja) – me. 9. TI – you, corresponding to Bulgarian ти (ti), Slovene, Serbo-Croatian, Czech ‘ti’ - you. 10. LEZI – lay! corresponding to Bulgarian лежи (leži)! lay! Ležati – to lay is a common Slavic verb; Slovenian: lézi! – lay down immediately!, lêži! – continue laying!, ležì - is laying. 11. PTA – master corresponding to Bulgarian бат (bat) – master. Old Bulgarians used the title Bat. Bat Bajan had meaning Master Bajan (in Modern Bulgarian бате (bate) is used as addressing towards elder brother). Bosnian ‘bato’ – big brother, Ukrainian батко (batko) – father, Russian батюшка (batjuška) master, Avestanic ‘pait’ – master are also related. PTA is related also to Scythian ‘peit’ – master (In the names Spargapeit [8], IV-76, Ariapeit [8], IV-78, which had also variant ‘biti’ – mistress in the theonym Tabiti – the Mistress [8], IV-59). Thracian personal name Baton is also related to PTA (perhaps pronounced B’TA). Other related personal names are the Bulgarian: Baton, Bat, Bato. PTA corresponds also to common Slavic word Gospod – Lord, master. PTA is in Vocative case, the ending -a corresponding to -o in Old Bulgarian [8], p. 25, (bлaдиkо! (vladiko)! – Oh leader!). 12. MIHE – my, corresponding to common Slavic ‘moj’ – my. 13. RAZIL – departed, corresponding to Old Bulgarian verb разити ся (raziti sja) Slovene 182 verb ‘raziti se’, and Russian ‘razoitis’, all with the meaning to go away, to depart. RAZIL is a past tense participle with ending L – [9], p. 38. The root in RAZIL is I (Infinitive iti – to go). RAZ is a common Slavic prefix which we find in Bulgarian verbs разбивам (razbivam) – I break, разбирам (razbiram) – I understand, раздавам (razdavam) – I give, I distribute, corresponding to Slovene verbs ‘razbiti’ – to break, ‘razbrati’ – to understand, ‘razdati’ – to give, to distribute. 14. TA - here, corresponding Old Bulgarian тоу (tu) – here, Modern Bulgarian тук (tuk) – here and Slovene ‘ta’ – this, that and ‘tukaj’ – here. The best match, however, is Slov. dial. (Idrija) ‘tà’ – here. Conclusion Despite the fact that the inscription was written about 2500 years ago, half of the words have remained almost unchanged in Modern Bulgarian: AZ = az – I, TI = ti – you, LEZI = leži – lie or lay, KOA = koja – who, DO = do – beside, MEAN = men – me, RAZEA = rjaza – cut. The rest of the words can be explained easily with help of the Old Bulgarian vocabulary and Bulgarian personal names. The phrase: ΔΟ ΜΕΑΝ ΤΙ ΛΕΖΙ! (do mean ti lezi!) is strikingly close to Bulgarian ДО МЕН ТИ ЛЕЖИ! (do men ti leži) – lay beside me! It was shown also that the words from the inscription have equivalents in Slovene, Czech, Russian etc. The grammatical peculiarities are very important when the affiliation of certain language has to be determined. We can notice the presence of Slavic (Blg. Sl.) personal pronouns AZ – I, TI – you, MEN – me, Vocative case in ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ, and ΠΤΑ, Slavic Past tense in RAZIL, and Slavic (Blg.) Aorist in PAZEA, Imperative in LEZI – lay!, Common Slavic noun DO – next, beside, and the common Slavic prefix RAZ-. That gives me the right to claim that Thracian language was nothing more but archaic Slavic language. So much peculiarities in such short text are good prove that Simokatta wrote the truth: Slavs, or Getae (Thracians) because that was their name in the antiquity [5], p. 14.

New interpretation If the beginning of the inscription and words following it show such closeness with Bulgarian vocabulary and grammar, it is logical that an attempt should be made to decipher the rest of the words with the help of the Bulgarian and other Slavic languages. Only if this approach doesn’t give good results, one should proceed with the search for related words in other Indo-European languages. There is another reason to begin with Bulgarian and other Slavic languages. That is the presence of testimonies of the ancient authors equating Bulgarians with Thracians (Moesians) [4], p. 76-79, 107-108, 110, and Thracians (Getae) with Slavs. T. Simokatta (quoted by Tsenov in [5], p. 14) is very clear: Sclavos sive Getas hoc enim nomine antiquitus appellati sunt Slavs or Getae, because that was their name in the antiquity My reading deviates from that of the other researchers and that is why I divide the text in a different way and I recognise 14 words consisting of 61 letters: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ ΑΣ ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ ΤΙΛΤΕΑΝΗΣ ΚΟΑ ΡΑΖΕΑ ΔΟ ΜΕΑΝ ΤΙ ΛΕΖΥ ΠΤΑ ΜΙHE ΡΑΖHΛ ΤΑ ROLISTENE AZ NERENEA TILTEANIS KOA RAZEA DO MEAN TI LEZI PTA MIÍE RAZIL TA This I translate as: Ролистене, аз Неренея Тилтеанис, коа разеа: до меан ти лези пта мие разил та (Rolistene, az Nerenea Tilteanis, koa razea: do mean ti lezi pta miie razil ta) In modern Bulgarian: Rolistene, az Nerenea Tilteanis, (săm tazi) koja(to) rjaza (tova): do men ti leži sypruže moi počinal tuk. In English: Rolistene, me Nerenea Tilteanis (is the one) who wrote this: lay beside me my master, (husband) released here (in the grave) 

Ref:
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf
http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61248
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=8gkaBwAAQBAJ&pg=PR24&lpg=PR24&dq=was+thracian+language+bulgarian&source=bl&ots=rldCSrJ5-A&sig=xXo26Yn4GQalBZKuKPYhjvk61Dc&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=was%20thracian%20language%20bulgarian&f=false

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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2016 at 17:29
Well reasoned and definitive enough. However your responding to a post 8 years from origination....and 4 years since the last response.

Which unfortunately makes you somewhat suspect as a potential spammer in disguise. Or your looking to gain credit viz a blog site publication. This is not a blog site. Or you have a genuine credible response years later. In either case...this thread is closed.

Not because of your post but because it remains a potential mechanism for spammers to infiltrate.

My recommendation to you... is 'flush' out your response and submit it for publication in either academia or the public sector.

Best of luck.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 31-Jan-2016 at 17:29
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2016 at 09:47
I reopened the thread. I appreciate CV's concern over spammers, however, I would rather have this thread active and open for additional comment.

Spammers will show up regardless, that's what they made the delete buttons for..
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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