American Islamic Forum for Democracy

hmmmmm!! no comments anyone-?????

This is just a fringe organisation of a few crazys. No need to take any notice of them, they wouldn't represent a large number of people (I'm guessing about 5 or 6).

but 80% in America are built by the Wahabee sect from Saudi Arabia

I'd highly doubt that, and besides, the so-called Wahabbi countries are all pro American

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim This is just a fringe organisation of a few crazys. No need to take any notice of them, they wouldn't represent a large number of people (I'm guessing about 5 or 6). but 80% in America are built by the Wahabee sect from Saudi Arabia I'd highly doubt that, and besides, the so-called Wahabbi countries are all pro American

Omar why are thy crazy? Is it because they support my nations constitution and oppose sharia; which is what I would oppose on all levels in the USA. I suppose we look at it different though! I am a nationalistic American with deep roots in this country so I see that they support a common goal we share as a Americans. I support them but everyone has a right to an opinion. The groups I do oppose have goals I am against for my nation and the freedoms we enjoy as North Americans. My motto for this is, "When in Rome do as the Romans do." If you give an inch they could demand a mile so no Sharia law here!! Most Americans would agree with me on that topic. Whether the Wahabee are truly pro American is up for debate and also for another thread.

I would like to hear from a Muslim American who would think different than you about this group and even be supportive of them and why.
I respect both your opinions though!

Dude if you think this is only group that supports democracy within Islam then you are funny, you do not have to don a funny name and claim yourself the true heir of democracy within Islam to protect America's core democratic values. Here is a few tid bits about the previous 00 election. A majority of Muslims in many counties voted for George W. Bush. Now I do not believe they did after his second term, but in the first they did because they share a lot of the values that he proclaimed he did share himself. I mean to say this group deserves rewards is to say that American Muslims are to be suspiciously looked upon until they join this organization. You do not have to be part of any gorup to believe in democracy. We have a huge mosque here in Villa Park, IL that was built by community contribution and is attended by white americans, european muslims, arab muslims, indian - pakistani, etc , etc... it is not a novelty whatsoever. Furthermore, we have about 4 Bosnian and maybe 2 Albanian mosques around Chicagoland all built or bought by charitable contributions of members or other Muslims around the area.

Where do you get these numbers about Wahabi contributions? 80% sounds like whackey tobacey talk rather than real hard numbers.

Beside there is a good book on Bosnian Americans out in the Chicago history line of books that surveys the first immigrants to the modern day and is a good piece of literature of Muslim Americans over a century.

And you being a nationalistic American is not exactly a thing to be proud of patriotism is all well and sought after but nationalism leads to a lot of things that democratic ideals do not necessarily uphold.

My ancestors have been coming here for three centuries and they all assimilated into the existing culture. Even my Greek half became American and even though the arrival of the Roman Catholics was feared at first, agents of the Pope, they also assimilated and respected the established laws.

(Al Jassas) Of course what you say has not happened here because we still have rule of law based upon our constitution and not sharia law. Where will it end once it is established here??? I still say, "when in Rome do as the Romans do." If immigrants want sharia law then maybe it is best for them to stay home.


es_bih we are a Republic and not a democracy but since you are not a native I am not sure where your allegiance lies although I do not know you and I have known many Americans from foreign lands who were very patriotic; this does not mean blind faith in our government- especially today! Remember, it was a Country with a Christian history that allowed you to immigrate here and not a one with an Islamic history. I do agree about too much nationalism is not a good thing but where do you draw the line and it is not wrong to support one's nation and way of life.

But why do you find this group so wrong? Let's get back on topic please!!

Hello eaglecap

Originally posted by Al Jassas Hello eaglecap most of the demands of the muslim community are under personal freedoms guaranteed by the constitution. They demanded from corporations to provide islamized products and not forced them. The overwhelming majority of corporations didn't even take care but those who wanted to win a big market did and secured profits. This is pure business and nothing more but these guys want to stamp on the constitution that provides for these freedoms and want congress to stop corporations from making money by customising some of their products for the muslim community just as they do for the Jewish community. Another thing about Sharia is define humane for me because I believe it is much more inhumane to leave murderers and child rapists roam free in the streets, I believe it very inhumane for the government to steal my money that I got by working hard and giving it to corporations that couldn't compete in the marketplace. Al-Jassas

I would agree if it stayed within those limits but if they do this where will stop? As for murderers and raptist- I agree we have become way to soft on violent crimes such as these. I can say some things I have seen about Sharia law in your country but I do not want to go off topic but I respect your view.

I apologize on not really knowing where this group stands on sharia law but with their other values such as the flag, country, respecting other beliefs and a respect for our Bill or Rights and constitution. At least this is my hope with this group. I need time to study them more and watch them.

The issue of Sharia in private banks and other institutions is called soft Jihad. The greater and lesser jihad so assume it is part of the greater jihad or an inner struggle. There are some values that I actually agree with Islam on but I was brought up on "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord."

If it ended with the banks then I would have no problem with it but the problem is this could be a back door approach. I know some groups, not just Muslim, oppose our idea of free speech and the first Amendment ,such as, the American Hindu Foundation which wants Christian web sites declared as hate speech against Hinduism by the US government. This is why I support the AIFD because they seem to support free speech whether it offends or not. I hated the Crucifix put into a jar of urine for so-called arts sake but it is free speech or some say. It never made me want to hurt other people. If some Christian or Jewish sect attempted to bring the Mosaic Law into private institutions then I would oppose that. I mean as practiced by the Hebrews!!


Soft jihad:

Banks are helping sharia make a back-door entrance
Tarek Fatah, about whom I have written here, writes in the Globe and Mail about the encroachment of Sharia in Canada:

It seems only yesterday that Premier Dalton McGuinty declared: "There will be no sharia law in Ontario." Many of us, who witnessed the medieval nature of manmade sharia laws in our countries of birth, heaved a sigh of relief back in September of 2005. We thought this was the end of the attempt by Islamists to sneak sharia into a Western jurisdiction. We were wrong.
The campaign to introduce sharia is back. Last time, the campaign took a populist approach, invoking multiculturalism. This time, the pro-sharia lobby is dangling the carrot of new niche markets and has the backing of Canada's major banks. Such icons of the corporate world as Citibank NA, HSBC Holdings PLC, and Barclays PLC have endorsed sharia banking and have started offering Islamic financing products to a vulnerable Muslim population.

In May, 2007, The Globe reported that "Several Canadian financial institutions are preparing sharia-compliant mortgages, insurance, taxi licensing and investment funds to help serve the country's fastest-growing part of the population." Recently, the Toronto Star's business section reported that an unnamed bank may offer sharia loans as early as this summer; Le Journal de Montreal disclosed that Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation(CMHC) was also getting in on the act. Stephanie Rubec, spokesperson for the CMHC, said the Crown corporation had launched a tender worth $100,000 to study Islamic mortgages for Muslim Canadians. Could she be oblivious to the fact that almost all Muslim Canadians currently have home mortgages through banks and don't feel they are living in sin? In fact, CMHC has gone a step further: It has quietly entered into a partnership with a Saudi company, AaYaan Holdings, to develop sharia-compliant mortgage-lending systems.

The origin of Islamic banking has its roots in the 1920s, but did not start until the late 1970s and owes much of its foundation to the Islamist doctrine of two people — Abul Ala Maudoodi of the Jamaat-e-Islami in Pakistan and Hassan al-Banna of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The theory was put into practice by Pakistani dictator General Zia-ul-Haq who established sharia banking law in Pakistan.

Proponents of sharia banking rest their case on many verses of the Holy Koran that outlaw usury, not interest.

Verses that address the question of loans and debts include:

Al Baqarah (2:275): God hath permitted trade and forbidden usury;

Al Baqarah (2:276): Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.

Every English-language translation of the Koran has translated the Arabic word riba as usury, not interest. Yet, Islamists have deliberately portrayed bank interest as usury and labelled the current banking system as un-Islamic. Instead, these Islamists have created exotic products with names that are foreign to much of the world's Muslim population. This is where they mask interest under the niqab of Mudraba, Musharaka, Murabaha, and Ijara. Two authors, both senior Muslim bankers, have written scathing critiques of sharia banking, one labelling the practice as nothing more than "deception," with the other suggesting the entire exercise was "a convenient pretext for advancing broad Islamic objectives and for lining the pockets of religious officials." Why Canadian banks would contribute to this masquerade is a question for ordinary Canadians to ask.

"Islamic banking" identified as attempt to introduce Sharia law in Canada
And elsewhere, notably in Britain. "Canadian Islamists trying to bring in Sharia," by Khalid Hasan for the Daily Times:

WASHINGTON: Canadian Islamists who have been trying to bring in Sharia into Canada, so far without success, have now chosen another route - Islamic banking.
According to Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, “In 2003, we saw Islamists trying to sneak Sharia into Canada through the backdoor of Family Law and under the cover of Multiculturalism. Now, they seem to be taking a different route. They claim they are introducing the seemingly innocuous ‘Islamic banking’ by claiming such banking to be ‘interest-free’ and ‘Sharia-compliant’. This is one more ploy to prey on the fears and insecurities of Muslim Canadians. Invoking Islam to make a fortune is only one part of the agenda. The other is to try one more time to make ‘Sharia’ part of the Canadian lexicon. Only this time, it has the backing of corporate lawyers and senior bankers who see big money at the end of the line. The whole concept is a fraud that will further marginalise an already marginalised community.”
This position will probably lead to more death threats for Fatah and his organization, which has called for other anti-Sharia concepts like the separation of religion and state.

Because they don’t charge interest, financial services, like mortgages, offered by Islamic institutions tend to be higher priced than those from secular. Fatah said ideally, Islamic financial institutions should operate in places with a Muslim majority. “If it hasn’t picked up, this is because the Muslim community is not foolish,” he said. Islamic financial services in Canada are being pushed by banking executives from the Muslim community who feel that by creating a niche they will be able to tap into an area non- Muslims can’t access. “It’s a complete fraud because what you are doing is you are adding interest upfront and building it into your investments and dishonestly calling it interest-free,” he added.
A Muslim Canadian business executive who manages a shipping business in Pakistan, said, “In essence, ‘Islamic’ banking is manipulative, deceitful and fraudulent at several levels. Any finance student will tell you that interest-based banking as we know it today is a component of inflation, risk and the opportunity cost of money. It is centrally regulated and transparent. Furthermore, by having a more efficient Aggregate Demand-Aggregate Supply dynamic, one can minimise the inflation component but the other two components are the basis of a regulated banking system that is a key aspect of economic and technological growth. The Islamists have their own arguments which probably culminate in: ‘why do something with honesty and transparency when religion can be misused to obfuscate the issue and concentrate power in the hands of a few’!” A report by Brian Adeba in the Ottawa publication The Embassy, says rules on interest, real estate and overcoming apprehension from both within and without the Muslim community make it tricky for Sharia- inspired banks to be set up in Canada.

"Islamic banking" identified as attempt to introduce Sharia law in Canada
And elsewhere, notably in Britain. "Canadian Islamists trying to bring in Sharia," by Khalid Hasan for the Daily Times:

WASHINGTON: Canadian Islamists who have been trying to bring in Sharia into Canada, so far without success, have now chosen another route - Islamic banking.
According to Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, “In 2003, we saw Islamists trying to sneak Sharia into Canada through the backdoor of Family Law and under the cover of Multiculturalism. Now, they seem to be taking a different route. They claim they are introducing the seemingly innocuous ‘Islamic banking’ by claiming such banking to be ‘interest-free’ and ‘Sharia-compliant’. This is one more ploy to prey on the fears and insecurities of Muslim Canadians. Invoking Islam to make a fortune is only one part of the agenda. The other is to try one more time to make ‘Sharia’ part of the Canadian lexicon. Only this time, it has the backing of corporate lawyers and senior bankers who see big money at the end of the line. The whole concept is a fraud that will further marginalise an already marginalised community.”
This position will probably lead to more death threats for Fatah and his organization, which has called for other anti-Sharia concepts like the separation of religion and state.

Because they don’t charge interest, financial services, like mortgages, offered by Islamic institutions tend to be higher priced than those from secular. Fatah said ideally, Islamic financial institutions should operate in places with a Muslim majority. “If it hasn’t picked up, this is because the Muslim community is not foolish,” he said. Islamic financial services in Canada are being pushed by banking executives from the Muslim community who feel that by creating a niche they will be able to tap into an area non- Muslims can’t access. “It’s a complete fraud because what you are doing is you are adding interest upfront and building it into your investments and dishonestly calling it interest-free,” he added.
A Muslim Canadian business executive who manages a shipping business in Pakistan, said, “In essence, ‘Islamic’ banking is manipulative, deceitful and fraudulent at several levels. Any finance student will tell you that interest-based banking as we know it today is a component of inflation, risk and the opportunity cost of money. It is centrally regulated and transparent. Furthermore, by having a more efficient Aggregate Demand-Aggregate Supply dynamic, one can minimise the inflation component but the other two components are the basis of a regulated banking system that is a key aspect of economic and technological growth. The Islamists have their own arguments which probably culminate in: ‘why do something with honesty and transparency when religion can be misused to obfuscate the issue and concentrate power in the hands of a few’!” A report by Brian Adeba in the Ottawa publication The Embassy, says rules on interest, real estate and overcoming apprehension from both within and without the Muslim community make it tricky for Sharia- inspired banks to be set up in Canada.
"Islamic banking" identified as attempt to introduce Sharia law in Canada
And elsewhere, notably in Britain. "Canadian Islamists trying to bring in Sharia," by Khalid Hasan for the Daily Times:

WASHINGTON: Canadian Islamists who have been trying to bring in Sharia into Canada, so far without success, have now chosen another route - Islamic banking.
According to Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, “In 2003, we saw Islamists trying to sneak Sharia into Canada through the backdoor of Family Law and under the cover of Multiculturalism. Now, they seem to be taking a different route. They claim they are introducing the seemingly innocuous ‘Islamic banking’ by claiming such banking to be ‘interest-free’ and ‘Sharia-compliant’. This is one more ploy to prey on the fears and insecurities of Muslim Canadians. Invoking Islam to make a fortune is only one part of the agenda. The other is to try one more time to make ‘Sharia’ part of the Canadian lexicon. Only this time, it has the backing of corporate lawyers and senior bankers who see big money at the end of the line. The whole concept is a fraud that will further marginalise an already marginalised community.”
This position will probably lead to more death threats for Fatah and his organization, which has called for other anti-Sharia concepts like the separation of religion and state.

Because they don’t charge interest, financial services, like mortgages, offered by Islamic institutions tend to be higher priced than those from secular. Fatah said ideally, Islamic financial institutions should operate in places with a Muslim majority. “If it hasn’t picked up, this is because the Muslim community is not foolish,” he said. Islamic financial services in Canada are being pushed by banking executives from the Muslim community who feel that by creating a niche they will be able to tap into an area non- Muslims can’t access. “It’s a complete fraud because what you are doing is you are adding interest upfront and building it into your investments and dishonestly calling it interest-free,” he added.
A Muslim Canadian business executive who manages a shipping business in Pakistan, said, “In essence, ‘Islamic’ banking is manipulative, deceitful and fraudulent at several levels. Any finance student will tell you that interest-based banking as we know it today is a component of inflation, risk and the opportunity cost of money. It is centrally regulated and transparent. Furthermore, by having a more efficient Aggregate Demand-Aggregate Supply dynamic, one can minimise the inflation component but the other two components are the basis of a regulated banking system that is a key aspect of economic and technological growth. The Islamists have their own arguments which probably culminate in: ‘why do something with honesty and transparency when religion can be misused to obfuscate the issue and concentrate power in the hands of a few’!” A report by Brian Adeba in the Ottawa publication The Embassy, says rules on interest, real estate and overcoming apprehension from both within and without the Muslim community make it tricky for Sharia- inspired banks to be set up in Canada.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\05\25\story_25-5-2007_pg7_10

Hello eaglecap