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[article] Luther's Sola fide - was it all?
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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: [article] Luther's Sola fide - was it all?
    Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 18:46
Nothing that Saints Paul or Ignatius say details papal supremacy. They simply speak of the duties of clergy. I don't disagree with Apostolic Succession, just that somehow Peter was above everyone else, and even if he was, why Rome has a higher standing then Antioch when it was at Antioch that Peter was a Bishop.
 
Yes it is the word Vicar which is also a problem.
 
vic·ar   < =text/ minmax_bound="true"> // ", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FV01%2FV0110400.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]> < id=speaker code=code= height=18 width=17 align=top id=:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000 minmax_bound="true" http: fpdownload.macromedia.com pub shockwave cabs flash swflash.cab#version='6,0,0,0"'>< NAME="_cx" VALUE="450">< NAME="_cy" VALUE="476">< NAME="FlashVars" VALUE="">< NAME="Movie" VALUE="http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf">< NAME="" VALUE="http://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf">< NAME="WMode" VALUE="">< NAME="Play" VALUE="0">< NAME="Loop" VALUE="0">< NAME="Quality" VALUE="High">< NAME="SAlign" VALUE="T">< NAME="Menu" VALUE="0">< NAME="" VALUE="">< NAME="AllowAccess" VALUE="">< NAME="Scale" VALUE="ShowAll">< NAME="DeviceFont" VALUE="0">< NAME="Movie" VALUE="0">< NAME="" VALUE="">< NAME="SWRemote" VALUE="">< NAME="Movie" VALUE="">< NAME="SeamlessTabbing" VALUE="1">< NAME="Pro" VALUE="0">< NAME="ProAddress" VALUE="">< NAME="Pro" VALUE="0">< NAME="AllowNetworking" VALUE="all">< NAME="AllowFullScreen" VALUE="false"> Audio Help   /ˈvɪkər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vik-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Church of England.
a. a person acting as priest of a parish in place of the rector, or as representative of a religious community to which tithes belong.
b. the priest of a parish the tithes of which are impropriated and who receives only the smaller tithes or a salary.
2. Protestant Episcopal Church.
a. a member of the clergy whose sole or chief charge is a chapel dependent on the church of a parish.
b. a bishop's assistant in charge of a church or mission.
3. Roman Catholic Church. an ecclesiastic representing the pope or a bishop.
4. a person who acts in place of another; substitute.
5. a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God's vicar on earth.
 
Number 4 is what I am speaking about specifically. The pope believes himself a substitute for the head of the Church. The head of the Church is God, so the pope believes himself to be a substitute for God. Where was the theology of this in the Ecumenical Councils for example?
 
Could I have a link to the said thread?
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arch.buff View Drop Down
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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 19:59
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Nothing that Saints Paul or Ignatius say details papal supremacy. They simply speak of the duties of clergy. I don't disagree with Apostolic Succession, just that somehow Peter was above everyone else, and even if he was, why Rome has a higher standing then Antioch when it was at Antioch that Peter was a Bishop.
 
Yes it is the word Vicar which is also a problem.
 
3. Roman Catholic Church. an ecclesiastic representing the pope or a bishop.
4. a person who acts in place of another; substitute.
5. a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God's vicar on earth.
 
Number 4 is what I am speaking about specifically. The pope believes himself a substitute for the head of the Church. The head of the Church is God, so the pope believes himself to be a substitute for God. Where was the theology of this in the Ecumenical Councils for example?
 
Could I have a link to the said thread?
 
Ok, here is about the time it would seem I have been talking in circles; or my points are failing to come accross in any effective way. This should be more taken as my inadequacy to expound in any way that would be seen as fruitful, no doubt, and for that you have my apologies. So, I shall attempt to expound in the simplest sense. All of the ordained are to be considered Vicars of Christ, especially when administering the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist. Does that make sense?
Also, I did not quote SS. Paul and Ignatius for benefit of argumentation as goes Papal Primacy; but rather, for explanation regarding the ordained as those who stand in persona Christi(Vicar).
 
Here allow me to briefly explain the different definitions-
 
3. Here it would be refering to such historical examples as the bishop of Thessalonica being the Vicar of the Apostolic see.
 
4. Now, here is a good straight-to-the-point definition.
 
5. And here and even more specific straight-to-the-point definition. The ordained sit in place of Christ and shepard the flock. Think of a living conduit for Christ, hence- in persona Christi.
 
It would do you better rather to not even think of the Pope when trying to fix yourself around the theology of the ordained representing Christ here on Earth. I would gather you have tangled the two and this may be the reason for your confusion. The Pope is only one of those Vicars of Christ. The Bishop of Rome is no more of a bishop than any other bishop within the Church. However, and this I believe is where Orthodoxy and Catholicism differ, the Pope is the Head of all churches. Why does Rome have a higher standing than Antioch? A simple look-over to some of the Church Father's writings will provide some clarity. However, as I assume you will be posting in the 'Primacy' thread I will leave my sources there. Now that we have smoothly transitioned into the topic of Papal PrimacyLOL, I will refer you to the relevant thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21045
 
God bless,
 
arch.buff
Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 20:35

Avoiding the primacy discussion here I don't disagree the position of the clergy, simply at which level the pope took it. And with that i'll go to the other thread.
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