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How to defeat pikemen

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Count Belisarius View Drop Down
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How to defeat pikemen
    Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 16:47
Originally posted by Husaria

Great pictures Roberts Thumbs%20Up. By feints yes thats what i meant Count, Also yes Parthia was cataphract heavy but the ratio of horse archers to cataphracts made the horse archer the more numerous and common component of the Parthian army.
 
Yes cataphracts feinted in fact it was one of their primary tactics you ever hear of the parthian shot?Smile which in the battles I've read about  was carried out by cataphracts


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 16:51
Originally posted by Roberts

Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Do you have any websites on the heavy cavalry from the italian wars that you owuld reccomend?Smile and what sort of armor did they have?Smile was it the typical chanfron,  crinet, peytral, crupper, and frouchard arrangment?Smile with mabye some chain mail? 

I don't know any websites about them in English, though I am sure you can find a lot about them in French language internet, since they had most of this heavy cavalry.

Here are some pictures from my hard drive to give you better idea of their armament.


You can read about them in wikipedia too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarme_
 
 
Can you tell what that side plate is called?Smile and thanks for the link and the picsSmile
 
However the klibanophoros and his horse had the same amount of protection only his horses barding hung down to the horses kneesSmile     


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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 17:16
Originally posted by Count Belisarius


Can you tell what that side plate is called?Smile and thanks for the link and the picsSmile

 

However the klibanophoros and his horse had the same amount of protection only his horses barding hung down to the horses kneesSmile     

Side plate? on horse? Sorry but i don't know the names for horse armour parts, well only that "champhron" is head protection.
Klibanophoros couldn't have the same protection, because they didn't have plate armour technology back then.

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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 17:37
Yeah but recent tests showed thta lamellar provided the same amount of protection as plate armor keep in mind that the klibanophoros owuld alos be wearing chain mail and they had plate since the days of the romans there are sevaral reliefs which show officers with cuirasses and chest plates


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  Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 20:43
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Originally posted by Husaria

Great pictures Roberts Thumbs%20Up. By feints yes thats what i meant Count, Also yes Parthia was cataphract heavy but the ratio of horse archers to cataphracts made the horse archer the more numerous and common component of the Parthian army.
 
Yes cataphracts feinted in fact it was one of their primary tactics you ever hear of the parthian shot?Smile which in the battles I've read about  was carried out by cataphracts


Could they have done it yes but my point is why use heavy cavalry best used as heavy cavalry when you have more than enough horse archers to do the same task if not better.
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 16:36
Well what do you mean by heavy cavalry? do you mean that they were somehow slower? remember what doomed heavy cavalry in the first place? they didn't have missle weapons how would a horse archer be better? thats what a cataphract is, and klibanophoroi rode destriers which were bred for speed, maneuverablity, and agility,despite their massive size and a horse archer won't do you any good if his arrows can't get through his opponents armor and the byzantines used horse archers, also the byzanitnes used feint tactics with great sucess


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 22:25
Here are some links that may be of helpSmile be careful of the last one ti doesn't have nay inline citations so its sources are unclearSmile
 
 


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 22:31
Basically the Roman Cataphracts of this period were just as good at using a bow as the steppe nomads or good enough. Cataphracts could shoot arrows over at nomads at their leizure while their arrows did little or nothing to them because of their better armor. If the nomads wanted to attack head on, the Cataphract would again out due the steppe nomad because of the armament. So there is a point to having a bow on a Cataphract. You wouldn't use it like a harrasser, probably wouldn't need as many arrows but the bow could be used against other horse archers that did want to harrass.
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 23:10
I agreeSmile Procopius also says that roman cataphracts could shoot with either hand were extremely accurate if somewhat slow (unlike the aprthians who could fire lots of arrows but they were hideouly innacurate and they didn't have much power) however the romans later added speed shooting to their abilities and they were very good at harassment (by all accounts)


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 16:23
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

Originally posted by Count Belisarius

I never said anything about the roman cavalryLOL there was a battle that a member mentioned where heavy cavlary charged pikes, what about a klibanophoros? and if you train a horse properly they will go where you want them to go
 
Animals never loose animal behaviors and instincts, no matter how well you train them.
 
You ever hear of a warhorse?Smile
 
Allow me to refer you to this excellent linkSmile
 


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 16:29
Originally posted by Roberts

Originally posted by Count Belisarius


Can you tell what that side plate is called?Smile and thanks for the link and the picsSmile

 

   

Side plate? on horse? Sorry but i don't know the names for horse armour parts, well only that "champhron" is head protection.

 
Here's a quick run through of barding terminologySmile Chanfron, the plate for the head. Crinet, the plates for the neck. Peytral, the plate for the chest. Crupper, the plate for the horses back. Frouchards, the plates for the horses flanks which were connected to the crupper


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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 19:00
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Basically the Roman Cataphracts of this period were just as good at using a bow as the steppe nomads or good enough. Cataphracts could shoot arrows over at nomads at their leizure while their arrows did little or nothing to them because of their better armor. If the nomads wanted to attack head on, the Cataphract would again out due the steppe nomad because of the armament. So there is a point to having a bow on a Cataphract. You wouldn't use it like a harrasser, probably wouldn't need as many arrows but the bow could be used against other horse archers that did want to harrass.


Roberts already mentioned that Cataphracts shot at a halt and those Byzantine troops who fought like Steppe Nomads were Steppe Nomads as the byzantines employed numerous mercenaries of all kinds. and why again you assume that Steppe Nomads had no fully armoured horsemen themselves? would you please stop your anti-horse archer/steppe army bias?


and btw, the discussion at the moment is about Cataphracts in a thread about defeatign pikemen. this thread itself is already of low value, unless it doesn't come back to the topic i'll have to move it to historical amusement.


Edited by Temujin - 28-Sep-2008 at 19:02
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 00:29
I agree with Temujin, there was a topic started a long time ago for cataphracts if you want to talk about them I sugggest you hunt it down post in that one, by the way Temujin cataphracts also fired at a run and they harrassed and feinted 


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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:24
[/QUOTE]
 
You ever hear of a warhorse?Smile
 
Allow me to refer you to this excellent linkSmile
 
[/QUOTE]

I stand by what I said. It is impossible to get rid of their instincts and behaviors.
What is the officer problem?
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:32
Did you check out the site? you have to train them my dad grew up around horses so my granddad and since there aren't warhorses around today we may never know, trust me you can get a horse to charge a person you can get them to charge together in a charge only the front rank of horses will see the enemy formation and since there are a bunch of other horses behind them charging at a run they will move or get crushed and since horses are herd animals they will stay together and follow the leader, another thing to keep in mind is that even though they lived five hundred years ago these people weren't stupid


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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 02:29
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Did you check out the site? you have to train them my dad grew up around horses so my granddad and since there aren't warhorses around today we may never know, trust me you can get a horse to charge a person you can get them to charge together in a charge only the front rank of horses will see the enemy formation and since there are a bunch of other horses behind them charging at a run they will move or get crushed and since horses are herd animals they will stay together and follow the leader, another thing to keep in mind is that even though they lived five hundred years ago these people weren't stupid


You cannot train any type of animal to loose its instincts.  Horses would not want to charge a wall of axes and spears, as they would not want to charge straight into a thorny bush. And I am not going to respond to that last sentence...
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:04
Did you anything I said? did you check the link? what about warhorses? and a horse does not percieve a human to be a solid object per se, trust me I've been charged by a horse


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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:11
I did look at the link.  And you got charged by the horse not because someone told it to, but because it felt frightened. This is an example the instinct taking command of it.
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:14
No the horse was not frightened I assure you of thatSmile


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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:16
Well something sparked its mind into thinking that way.
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