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Nick1986
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Topic: Fantasy Duel#6--Ming Chinese swordsman vs. Samurai Posted: 20-Sep-2012 at 20:16 |
The Samurai's lightweight armor gives him an advantage, but the katana was prone to shattering unless it was exceptionally high quality
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 15:47 |
Yes The China's millitary was advanced only in terms of centrallized organization paid by the emperor, any able men can rise through the ranks to the General, and any noble man can't afford his own army.
In terms of armor, the Japanese used leather same as the Chinese.
swords - while samurai swords are well made, I don't think Japan are capable of providing a fine samurai swords for each of their soldier. So on average, every nations' swords are on the same level.
Raw martial art - I don't think it really matters, what counts is the physical fitness, Chinese average troops has no advantage on martial art over armies of any other culture, that's why the barbarians wins, they lose because they have no discipline.
Moral - China during that time was pretty corrupt so....
Navy - I don't think China has a navy during that war, as most of the naval victories were by the Koreans
In general, Ming army was of little impact on Imijin War. I recall some sources say the Ming army was more troublesome than the Japanese army, which I don't doubt.
Edited by Yue_Fei
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poirot
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 14:23 |
I agree with Yue Fei. It is an asymetrical analysis. More like compariing a Templar Knight to a Saracen infantryman. I think 10 swordsmen vs. 1 samurai would be the usual ratio. The Japanese military at the era was more feudal, while the Chinese military during the Ming more resembled a modern military in organization.
I assume that we are comparing the Chinese and Japanese at the time of the Imjin War (1590s) We compare Hideyoshi's army with the late Ming army, which is not elite.
In terms of:
Armor - Japanese
Size - Chinese
Firepower - Chinese
Swords - Japanese
Raw Martial Arts - Chinese, might be a little biased but what the heck
Morale - Japanese
Navy - Chinese (although Korean tops both in the Imjin war)
Cavalry - Chinese
Tactics - Tied
Leadership - Tied
Edited by poirot
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Posted: 13-Sep-2005 at 22:42 |
Of course the Samurais will win. But Samurais Vs. Ming swords man is really an invalid comparison. It's like comparing knights to Roman infantries.
Both Knight and samurai are of noble class during their time period. They live by a code, and receive fief from their lord, supply their own weapons and armor. Of course they were better trained than the general infantryman. >>
Samurai has high military rankings, where as Ming swords men are just regular infantryman. You can't compare unit commanders unit it self, or comparing high military officers to privates. Samurais are noble man, while Ming swords men are peasant conscript. >>
I am not well versed in history, but I am sure that entire Japanese army wasn't made of samurais only. You're really making a false comparison here, can't compare apple to apple seeds. >>
You should compare Samurai with its equivalent Chinese noble class warriors, usually, well.... there isnt any. Chinese high offices are open to both noble and peasants. >>
But if you really want to compare, then you should compare Samurais with Chinese army generals. Like comparing Knights to Centurions.>>
Edited by Yue_Fei
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Conan the destroyer
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Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 20:10 |
Uhh...no. While the late Ming military had declined. The army in Yongle the time was far superior to the Japanese armies. Anyone who says otherwise is spouting anti-sino propaganda.
And kiddo, you should give reasons why the Japanese military had superior orginasation, considering the Japanese military was based on old Chinese models
Edited by Conan the destroyer
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maersk
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Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 18:25 |
ming military organization was inferior to the japanese. anyone who says different is spouting pro sino propaganda
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Conan the destroyer
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Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 07:31 |
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
Acutally, the samurai inflicted huge casualties on the Chinese, and the Imjin War weakened the Ming Dynasty to such an extent that it paved the way for the Manchus to come in, early in the 17th century. |
This is a myth. Told by a certain author who relies entirely on Japanese and secondary english sources.
Fact is, the Ming army had been fighting the Manchurians, Mongols and massive rebel armies when the Japanese invaded. These wars were far more costly.
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 07:38 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
not yet. that would be true for the 18th and 19th centuries, but during the 16, and 17 centuries, china was still the lead. |
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you are completely wrong.
The Chinese were totally impressed with the superiority of European artillery back in the 16th century.
beside, sarmuria and ming soldiers did fight and the samurias got slaughtered. |
Acutally, the samurai inflicted huge casualties on the Chinese, and the Imjin War weakened the Ming Dynasty to such an extent that it paved the way for the Manchus to come in, early in the 17th century.
why fight about it if it did happen. don't overestimate the samuria because of "the last samuria". |
LOL, I began studying martial arts and the history of the samurai long before that Tom Cruise movie, so don't go making assumptions.
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coolstorm
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Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 03:31 |
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
[QUOTE=coolstorm]
In the world? Hardly the case, my friend.
That honor would go to Europe--esp. the English, Flemish, Germans, & Venetians for heavy artillery, and the Spanish & Italian states for small arms.
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not yet. that would be true for the 18th and 19th centuries, but during the 16, and 17 centuries, china was still the lead.
an example would be the easy defeat of the russians by the manchus in 1650's that extended china's territories to current day's russian far east. the russians suffered heavy causualties after heavy bombardment.
beside, sarmuria and ming soldiers did fight and the samurias got slaughtered.
why fight about it if it did happen. don't overestimate the samuria because of "the last samuria".
Edited by coolstorm
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aknc
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 06:16 |
I think you are right.But if the samuri is strong and fast enough he can cut off the leg of the ming.
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 06:04 |
Originally posted by aknc
s the ming's shield extremely large that it will cover up his whole body? |
Like most shields worn on the arm, it's large enough that it's presence cannot be ignored.
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aknc
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 02:22 |
s the ming's shield extremely large that it will cover up his whole body?
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:38 |
Originally posted by aknc
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
Originally posted by aknc
there are three styles;(i only know the turkish names)epe,flreand swords.I use the sword?(in turkish it' kl) |
Ah, OK.
I think you mean "saber".
but that doesn't matter because i am especially interested in the history of hand to hand combat and the samurai will be faster and deadlier than the shield bearing ming. |
You still haven't told me how the samurai will cope with the opponent's shield.
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the samurai will strike so much speed that the ming will not have time to prevent them with it's shield.(correct me if i'm wrong because i don't know if the ming carries a special shield)
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Allow me to explain.
The samurai is trying to hit (cut or thrust) the Ming swordsman.
The Ming swordsman's shield is between the Ming swordsman and the samurai.
This is a problem for the samurai.
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:35 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
On the contrary, Coolstorm, it was the Japanese who made a great use of firearms during the Imjin War--they used copies of the Portuguese arquebus, which was superior to the handguns used on the Asian Continent at that time. |
the continent of asia doesn't mean China tho. Ming China even during its last years manufactured the highest quality firearms in the world during the 16th century. |
In the world? Hardly the case, my friend.
That honor would go to Europe--esp. the English, Flemish, Germans, & Venetians for heavy artillery, and the Spanish & Italian states for small arms.
Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,
I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:33 |
Originally posted by warhead
Japan had superior hand guns Ming had superior cannons. |
Thank you, Warhead.
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warhead
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 17:25 |
Japan had superior hand guns Ming had superior cannons.
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coolstorm
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 16:38 |
"The Ming troops used strategy to capture PyongYang, by wearing Korean troop battle uniform since the Chosun soldier are known to have less fighting capabilities, while Ming placed different forces on the different direction of the city, the Japanese were underestimating the Ming troops of the western gate because they thought they were Chosun troops, yet it was precisely this army that stormed the city and when they got to the top took of their Chosun uniform and revealed the red Ming uniforms and shocked the Japanese, while the Japanese were ordering troops from other quarters to aid, the other sides also stormed the city. The remainder Japanese garrison eascpaed to different direction, one of which was ambushed and annihilated by the general who set the trap at one of the gates. The Ming army was around 100,000 strong, the Japanese invasion force was as folows:
The Japanese campaign of Korea is organized into ten contingents as follows:
First Contingent (Kyushu) Konishi(leading general): 7,000 So: 5,000 Matsura: 3,000 Arima: 2000 Omura: 1000 Goto: 700 Total force: 18,700
Second Contingent (Kyushu) Kato Kiyomasa(leading general): 8000 Nabeshima: 12,000 Sagara: 800 Total force: 20,800
Third Contingent Kuroda Nagamasa: 6000 Otomo Yoshimune: 6000 Total force: 12,000
Forth Contingent (Kyushu) Shimadzu Yoshihiro: 10,000 Mori Yoshinari: 2000 Takahashi: 2000 Akizuki: 1000 Ito: 1000 Shimazu Tadatoyo: 1,000 Total force: 17,000
Fifth contingent (Shikoku Fukushima: 10,000 Toda: 4000 Hachisuka: 7,200 Chosokabe: 3,000 Ikoma: 5,500 Total force 24,700
Sixth contingent (Kyushu)
Kobayakawa: 10,000 Mori Hidekane: 1,500 Tachibana: 2,500 Takahashi Motosugu: 800 Tsukushi: 900 Total force: 15,700
Seventh Contingent: Mori Terumoto, Kikkawa, Mori Motoyasu: total force: 30,000
Combined force: 138,900
The above seven contigents were to start first and open roads to China.
8th contingent Ukida Hideiye: 10,000 Masuda(Bugyo): 3,000 Ishida(Bugyo): 2000 Otani: 1200 Mayeno: 2000 Kato Mitsuyasu: 1000 Total Force: 19,200
9th contingent Asano(Bugyo): 3000 Miyabe: 1000 Nanjo: 1500 Kinosh*ta: 850 Nakagawa: 3,000 Inaba: 1,400 Total Force: 10,750
10th contingent Hashiba Hidekatsu: 8000 Hashiba Tadaoki: 3500 Hasegawa: 5000 Kimura: 3500 Onogi: Kamei: 1000 Total force: 22,000
Combined force: 51,950
The above three contingents were to enter Korea after the preceding seven contingents.
Total land force: 190,850
Naval Forces Kuki: 1,500 Todo: 2000 Wakizaka: 1500 Kato Yoshiaki: 1000 Kurushima: 700 Suga: 250
Total naval force: 6,950
Other small forces also accompanies them.
The Seibatsu Ki says that all together, 208,650 men crossed over to Korea and only 97,460 remained at Nagoya. The Tensho Ki gives number of troops in Korea as 201,000 and those remained at Nagoya as 102,300 a total of 303,500. The Taiko Ki gives total troops who crossed Korea as 205,570 and those remained at Nagoya as 102,450 making a grand total of 307,985. In any case it would seem some 2/3 of the entire Japanese force were in Korea, showing the large effort that Hideoshi had to subdue to continent, also most of the troops that left behind were his own, it also shows his method of weakening the various Daimyos and sent their troops to war. Those troops that were left behind in Nagoya, some 28,00 belonging to Hideoshi and 74,000 troops belonging to Eastern and Northern Daimyos were to remain as a provision against any possible attack from China.
In fact there were more Japanese troops than Ming troops in the first invasion and the Ming still pushed them back although with considerable weight taken by the Korean guerillas. "
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coolstorm
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 14:12 |
On the contrary, Coolstorm, it was the Japanese who made a great use of firearms during the Imjin War--they used copies of the Portuguese arquebus, which was superior to the handguns used on the Asian Continent at that time. |
the continent of asia doesn't mean China tho. Ming China even during its last years manufactured the highest quality firearms in the world during the 16th century. the manchu, however, didn't have as high variety of firearms as the ming and didn't use as many firearms as the ming either except for the cannons.
during the first sino-japanese war fought in korea in 1580's, japan sufferred higher causaulty than the ming. ming china devoted 3400 cannons into the battles with half of troops equiped with a variety of firearms. japan, on the other hand, had a limited number of small scale firearms with very few cannons.
even the defeated ming general, chueng chun kon, who fled to taiwan after the manchu took over could easily take down the dutch on the island, who had previously defeated the portugese.
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aknc
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 12:24 |
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
Originally posted by aknc
there are three styles;(i only know the turkish names)epe,flreand swords.I use the sword?(in turkish it' kl) |
Ah, OK.
I think you mean "saber".
but that doesn't matter because i am especially interested in the history of hand to hand combat and the samurai will be faster and deadlier than the shield bearing ming. |
You still haven't told me how the samurai will cope with the opponent's shield.
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the samurai will strike so much speed that the ming will not have time to prevent them with it's shield.(correct me if i'm wrong because i don't know if the ming carries a special shield)
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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
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Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 10:05 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
The Ming Soldier will win with firearms, which were not widely used in Japan but in China. |
On the contrary, Coolstorm, it was the Japanese who made a great use of firearms during the Imjin War--they used copies of the Portuguese arquebus, which was superior to the handguns used on the Asian Continent at that time.
Beside, Ming solders got better martial abilities.
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Feel free to elaborate on that...
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"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,
I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."
--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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