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Fantasy Duel#6--Ming Chinese swordsman vs. Samurai

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fantasy Duel#6--Ming Chinese swordsman vs. Samurai
    Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 08:44
Dao vs. Katana--who takes it?
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 09:26

The samurai would win unless the ming is an extremely strong man with lots of muscles.I practice fencing and i know that the style of the samurai's sword will make him faster against the ming and will also allow him to hit with more strenth.

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 09:34
Originally posted by aknc

The samurai would win unless the ming is an extremely strong man with lots of muscles.I practice fencing and i know that the style of the samurai's sword will make him faster against the ming and will also allow him to hit with more strenth.

What kind of fencing do you do?

Also, how does the samurai get past the Ming soldier's shield?

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 09:41
there are three styles;(i only know the turkish names)epe,flreand swords.I use the sword?(in turkish it' kl)but that doesn't matter because i am especially interested in the history of hand to hand combat and the samurai will be faster and deadlier than the shield bearing ming.
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 09:47

Originally posted by aknc

there are three styles;(i only know the turkish names)epe,flreand swords.I use the sword?(in turkish it' kl)

Ah, OK.

I think you mean "saber".

but that doesn't matter because i am especially interested in the history of hand to hand combat and the samurai will be faster and deadlier than the shield bearing ming.

You still haven't told me how the samurai will cope with the opponent's shield. 

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 09:54

The Ming Soldier will win with firearms, which were not widely used in Japan but in China.

Beside, Ming solders got better martial abilities.

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 10:05
Originally posted by coolstorm

The Ming Soldier will win with firearms, which were not widely used in Japan but in China.

On the contrary, Coolstorm, it was the Japanese who made a great use of firearms during the Imjin War--they used copies of the Portuguese arquebus, which was superior to the handguns used on the Asian Continent at that time.

Beside, Ming solders got better martial abilities.

Feel free to elaborate on that...

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I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 12:24
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Originally posted by aknc

there are three styles;(i only know the turkish names)epe,flreand swords.I use the sword?(in turkish it' kl)

Ah, OK.

I think you mean "saber".

but that doesn't matter because i am especially interested in the history of hand to hand combat and the samurai will be faster and deadlier than the shield bearing ming.

You still haven't told me how the samurai will cope with the opponent's shield. 

the samurai will strike so much speed that the ming will not have time to prevent them with it's shield.(correct me if i'm wrong because i don't know if the ming carries a special shield)

"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 14:12

On the contrary, Coolstorm, it was the Japanese who made a great use of firearms during the Imjin War--they used copies of the Portuguese arquebus, which was superior to the handguns used on the Asian Continent at that time.

the continent of asia doesn't mean China tho. Ming China even during its last years manufactured the highest quality firearms in the world during the 16th century. the manchu, however, didn't have as high variety of firearms as the ming and didn't use as many firearms as the ming either except for the cannons.

during the first sino-japanese war fought in korea in 1580's, japan sufferred higher causaulty than the ming. ming china devoted 3400 cannons into the battles with half of troops equiped with a variety of firearms. japan, on the other hand, had a limited number of small scale firearms with very few cannons.

even the defeated ming general, chueng chun kon, who fled to taiwan after the manchu took over could easily take down the dutch on the island, who had previously defeated the portugese.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 16:38
"The Ming troops used strategy to capture PyongYang, by wearing Korean troop battle uniform since the Chosun soldier are known to have less fighting capabilities, while Ming placed different forces on the different direction of the city, the Japanese were underestimating the Ming troops of the western gate because they thought they were Chosun troops, yet it was precisely this army that stormed the city and when they got to the top took of their Chosun uniform and revealed the red Ming uniforms and shocked the Japanese, while the Japanese were ordering troops from other quarters to aid, the other sides also stormed the city. The remainder Japanese garrison eascpaed to different direction, one of which was ambushed and annihilated by the general who set the trap at one of the gates.
The Ming army was around 100,000 strong, the Japanese invasion force was as folows:

The Japanese campaign of Korea is organized into ten contingents as follows:

First Contingent (Kyushu)
Konishi(leading general): 7,000
So: 5,000
Matsura: 3,000
Arima: 2000
Omura: 1000
Goto: 700
Total force: 18,700

Second Contingent (Kyushu)
Kato Kiyomasa(leading general): 8000
Nabeshima: 12,000
Sagara: 800
Total force: 20,800

Third Contingent
Kuroda Nagamasa: 6000
Otomo Yoshimune: 6000
Total force: 12,000

Forth Contingent (Kyushu)
Shimadzu Yoshihiro: 10,000
Mori Yoshinari: 2000
Takahashi: 2000
Akizuki: 1000
Ito: 1000
Shimazu Tadatoyo: 1,000
Total force: 17,000

Fifth contingent (Shikoku
Fukushima: 10,000
Toda: 4000
Hachisuka: 7,200
Chosokabe: 3,000
Ikoma: 5,500
Total force 24,700


Sixth contingent (Kyushu)

Kobayakawa: 10,000
Mori Hidekane: 1,500
Tachibana: 2,500
Takahashi Motosugu: 800
Tsukushi: 900
Total force: 15,700

Seventh Contingent:
Mori Terumoto, Kikkawa, Mori Motoyasu: total force: 30,000

Combined force: 138,900

The above seven contigents were to start first and open roads to China.


8th contingent
Ukida Hideiye: 10,000
Masuda(Bugyo): 3,000
Ishida(Bugyo): 2000
Otani: 1200
Mayeno: 2000
Kato Mitsuyasu: 1000
Total Force: 19,200

9th contingent
Asano(Bugyo): 3000
Miyabe: 1000
Nanjo: 1500
Kinosh*ta: 850
Nakagawa: 3,000
Inaba: 1,400
Total Force: 10,750

10th contingent
Hashiba Hidekatsu: 8000
Hashiba Tadaoki: 3500
Hasegawa: 5000
Kimura: 3500
Onogi:
Kamei: 1000
Total force: 22,000

Combined force: 51,950

The above three contingents were to enter Korea after the preceding seven contingents.

Total land force: 190,850


Naval Forces
Kuki: 1,500
Todo: 2000
Wakizaka: 1500
Kato Yoshiaki: 1000
Kurushima: 700
Suga: 250

Total naval force: 6,950

Other small forces also accompanies them.

The Seibatsu Ki says that all together, 208,650 men crossed over to Korea and only 97,460 remained at Nagoya.
The Tensho Ki gives number of troops in Korea as 201,000 and those remained at Nagoya as 102,300 a total of 303,500.
The Taiko Ki gives total troops who crossed Korea as 205,570 and those remained at Nagoya as 102,450 making a grand total of 307,985.
In any case it would seem some 2/3 of the entire Japanese force were in Korea, showing the large effort that Hideoshi had to subdue to continent, also most of the troops that left behind were his own, it also shows his method of weakening the various Daimyos and sent their troops to war.
Those troops that were left behind in Nagoya, some 28,00 belonging to Hideoshi and 74,000 troops belonging to Eastern and Northern Daimyos were to remain as a provision against any possible attack from China.

In fact there were more Japanese troops than Ming troops in the first invasion and the Ming still pushed them back although with considerable weight taken by the Korean guerillas. "
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 17:25
Japan had superior hand guns Ming had superior cannons.
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:33

Originally posted by warhead

Japan had superior hand guns Ming had superior cannons.

Thank you, Warhead.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:35
Originally posted by coolstorm

On the contrary, Coolstorm, it was the Japanese who made a great use of firearms during the Imjin War--they used copies of the Portuguese arquebus, which was superior to the handguns used on the Asian Continent at that time.

the continent of asia doesn't mean China tho. Ming China even during its last years manufactured the highest quality firearms in the world during the 16th century.

In the world?  Hardly the case, my friend.

That honor would go to Europe--esp. the English, Flemish, Germans, & Venetians for heavy artillery, and the Spanish & Italian states for small arms. 

 



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:38
Originally posted by aknc

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Originally posted by aknc

there are three styles;(i only know the turkish names)epe,flreand swords.I use the sword?(in turkish it' kl)

Ah, OK.

I think you mean "saber".

but that doesn't matter because i am especially interested in the history of hand to hand combat and the samurai will be faster and deadlier than the shield bearing ming.

You still haven't told me how the samurai will cope with the opponent's shield. 

the samurai will strike so much speed that the ming will not have time to prevent them with it's shield.(correct me if i'm wrong because i don't know if the ming carries a special shield)

Allow me to explain.

The samurai is trying to hit (cut or thrust) the Ming swordsman.

The Ming swordsman's shield is between the Ming swordsman and the samurai.

This is a problem for the samurai.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 02:22
s the ming's shield extremely large that it will cover up his whole body?
"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
              
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 06:04

Originally posted by aknc

s the ming's shield extremely large that it will cover up his whole body?

Like most shields worn on the arm, it's large enough that it's presence cannot be ignored.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 06:16
I think you are right.But if the samuri is strong and fast enough he can cut off the leg of the ming.
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 03:31
Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

[QUOTE=coolstorm]

In the world?  Hardly the case, my friend.

That honor would go to Europe--esp. the English, Flemish, Germans, & Venetians for heavy artillery, and the Spanish & Italian states for small arms. 

 

not yet. that would be true for the 18th and 19th centuries, but during the 16, and 17 centuries, china was still the lead.

an example would be the easy defeat of the russians by the manchus in 1650's that extended china's territories to current day's russian far east. the russians suffered heavy causualties after heavy bombardment.

beside, sarmuria and ming soldiers did fight and the samurias got slaughtered.

why fight about it if it did happen. don't overestimate the samuria because of "the last samuria".



Edited by coolstorm
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 07:38
Originally posted by coolstorm

not yet. that would be true for the 18th and 19th centuries, but during the 16, and 17 centuries, china was still the lead.

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you are completely wrong.

The Chinese were totally impressed with the superiority of European artillery back in the 16th century.

beside, sarmuria and ming soldiers did fight and the samurias got slaughtered.

Acutally, the samurai inflicted huge casualties on the Chinese, and the Imjin War weakened the Ming Dynasty to such an extent that it paved the way for the Manchus to come in, early in the 17th century.

why fight about it if it did happen. don't overestimate the samuria because of "the last samuria".

LOL, I began studying martial arts and the history of the samurai long before that Tom Cruise movie, so don't go making assumptions. 

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote Conan the destroyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 07:31

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Acutally, the samurai inflicted huge casualties on the Chinese, and the Imjin War weakened the Ming Dynasty to such an extent that it paved the way for the Manchus to come in, early in the 17th century. 

This is a myth. Told by a certain author who relies entirely on Japanese and secondary english sources.

Fact is, the Ming army had been fighting the Manchurians, Mongols and massive rebel armies when the Japanese invaded. These wars were far more costly.

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