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Greek presence in Iran since 2nd millenium B.C.

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek presence in Iran since 2nd millenium B.C.
    Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 21:11

It seems an Indian people also claim to be Greek!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gill_(clan)

The modern Jat tribe of Gills are lineage from the King or Raja, Prithipat of Garh Mathila who was a Waryah Rajput. Thus, the Jat tribe of Gills is believed to fit under the branch of a predecessor umbrella Gill tribe that ranged from Central Asia through modern-day Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and North Western India. This tribe according to sources below is believed to have been of either Indo-Iranian origins from Central Asia, (specifically Scythian or Saka from their home on the Oxus, or possibly White Huns or Yuezhi) or a mixed Indo-Scythian and Greek tribe. The Indo-Aryan/Greek mix theory is due in part to tradition passed down through the tribe for over the last millennia as well as the timeframe in which Scythians/Yuezhi/White Huns which were competing Central Asian tribes of Indo-European descent settled in Asia and established kingdoms, such as the Indo-Scythian kingdom, and the geographical and chronological range of this settlement coinciding with Alexander the Great's invasion with his Greek army.
 
Theory of Greek origin

Bhim Singh Dahiya, a prominent Jat historian, traces the origin of the Gills to the Greeks. He speculates that the people of this tribe which was possibly Indo-Scythian came in the company of Alexander the Great. They settled in Kabul, Kandhar and the Punjab region. One of the sons of the legendary Greek mythical hero, Hercules was named "Gilla." It is also possible that ancestors of Gills came to Greece from Middle Asia (Scythians/Sakas) and then to what is now Pakistan, and Afghanistan. This would conform with typical Jat ancestry,[citation needed] distinguishing the Gill clan in particular as migrating/invading peoples from the Parthian Greek or Greco-Bactrian Kingdoms, which sprang up after Alexander's incursion. These would be a mix of ethnically Greek or Indo-Scythian (Indo-Iranian) peoples, whereas most Jat clans are typically descended from Indo-Scythian/Saka migrations/invasions from the north (Central Asia and Western China).[citation needed] The Shahi Dynasty of Afghanistan and the Punjab, and many of the rulers of Greco-Bactrian kingdoms post-Alexander were also from the Gill clan.

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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 22:28
Interesting how all these people don't turn to FYROM but us!
Wink

Sorry for the thread hi-jacking.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 04:46
one person claims, lets not get excited. the connection would be PIE, most like indo-Iranic. I still fail to see the Greek connection in terms of language.
 
the part of that wiki article which i have come across before, which is quite relevant is this part.
 
Other uses of the name "Gill"

The name "Gill" is also used in other parts of the world, especially in Europe and the Middle East.

[edit] Europe

  • English: From a short form of the personal names such as "Giles", "Julian", "William", "Gilbert" or "Gillian". In theory, the name would have a soft initial when derived from the first two of these, and a hard one when from 'William'. However, there has been much confusion over the centuries.
  • Northern English: Topographic name for someone who lived by a ravine or deep glen, Middle English gil(l), Old Norse gil ‘ravine’ or 'stream'.
  • Scottish and Irish: Reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic "Mac Gille" (Scottish), "Mac Giolla" (Irish), patronymics from an occupational name for a servant or a short form of the various personal names formed by attaching this element to the name of a saint. See "McGill". The Old Norse personal name "Gilli" is probably of this origin, and may lie behind some examples of the name in northern England.
  • Norwegian: Habitational name from any of three farmsteads in western Norway named Gil, from Old Norse gil meaning ‘ravine’ or 'stream'.

[edit] The Middle East

  • Jewish (Ashkenaz): Ornamental name from the Hebrew gil meaning ‘joy’.
  • The "Gilani" surname/tribe, which hails from the province of Gilan in Iran is considered to be of similar ancestry to the original 'Gill' tribe.


Edited by Leonidas - 24-Jul-2008 at 04:47
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 04:50
futher
 

Gill Name Meaning and History

  1. English: from a short form of the personal names Giles, Julian, or William. In theory the name would have a soft initial when derived from the first two of these, and a hard one when from William or from the other possibilities discussed in 2–4 below. However, there has been much confusion over the centuries.
  2. Northern English: topographic name for someone who lived by a ravine or deep glen, Middle English gil(l), Old Norse gil ‘ravine’.
  3. Scottish and Irish: reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Gille (Scottish), Mac Giolla (Irish), patronymics from an occupational name for a servant or a short form of the various personal names formed by attaching this element to the name of a saint. See McGill. The Old Norse personal name Gilli is probably of this origin, and may lie behind some examples of the name in northern England.
  4. Scottish and Irish: reduced Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac An Ghoill (see Gall 1).
  5. Norwegian: habitational name from any of three farmsteads in western Norway named Gil, from Old Norse gil ‘ravine’.
  6. Dutch: cognate of Giles.
  7. Jewish (Israeli): ornamental name from Hebrew gil ‘joy’.
  8. German: from a vernacular short form of the medieval personal name Aegidius (see Gilger).
  9. Indian (Panjab): Sikh name, probably from Panjabi gil ‘moisture’, also meaning ‘prosperity’. There is a Jat tribe that bears this name; the Ramgarhia Sikhs also have a clan called Gill.
www.ancestry.com/facts/Gill-family-history.ashx


Edited by Leonidas - 24-Jul-2008 at 04:51
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 10:24
Leonidas, We are not just talking about the name similarities, for example I think "Olive" could be also a good clue.
 
However the Olive tree is already native to Gilan alongside the eastern Mediterranean regions -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive but it said it was introduced to this region by the Mediterranean peoples about 3,000 years.
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  Quote Greek Hoplite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 18:42
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Do exist people, like the girl in the picture in Iran?! She could be my sister lolBig%20smile


EDIT by Spartakus: Inappropriate and totally irrelevant posting. Be careful next time.








Edited by Spartakus - 06-Aug-2008 at 17:32
My blog
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 19:05
Yes, they exist in Iran, but they are in minority. Most of Iranians have dark hair.
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  Quote Greek Hoplite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 19:08
Originally posted by Suren

Most of Iranians have dark hair.


Yes i know that, the opposite would be strangeSmile.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 20:26

Marlik (intertwined snakes)

http://dooroodiran.blogspot.com/2004/04/marlik-culture.html : Some researchers believe that Marlik has attained its name from the innumerable snakes that have inhabited it. (As 'Mar' means snake in the Persian language).

I think this is the most famous Marlik gold object:

Read this thread: Cadusian Governmental Citadel Discovered in Gilan

And read this article: THE DOUBLE HELIX OF THE CADUCEUS (Cadusia is where Hermes originated.)

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 14:07

Gilakis and Mazanis in the west Urmia (Ninth Century B.C.) [Rabat/Musasir (West Azarbaijan province)]

 
Gilzan
 
In the ancient times, the west bank of Urmia lake was called Gilzan, and in the ninth century B.C. an independent government ruled there which later joined the Urartu or Mana empire; in the eight century B.C., the area was a vassal of the Asuzh government until it joined the Mad empire after its formation.
 
 
Naked goddesses discovered in Rabat Tepe
 
A brick bearing bas-reliefs of two naked winged goddesses was unearthed at the 3000-year-old site of Rabat near the town of Sardasht in Iran's West Azarbaijan Province, the Persian service of the Cultural Heritage News (CHN) agency reported on Saturday.
“This is first time such motifs (naked goddesses) were discovered in an archaeological site of the country. The importance of the discoveries created a worldwide media frenzy,” said Reza Heydari, an archaeologist of the West Azarbaijan Cultural Heritage and Tourism Department.
“The discovery of naked winged goddesses in the region has astounded everyone. The goddesses are lean. Thus the archaeologists believe that they are not goddesses of reproduction and fertility,” he added. >> “Naked goddesses have frequently been seen in ancient Greek art." <<
The team of archaeologists working in the region believes that Rabat Tepe was the seat of government of Musasir about 3000 years ago.
Musasir was a semi-independent buffer state bordering Mannai between Assyria and Urartu. It was a vassal state of Assyria yet Urartu had some claims over it.

http://www.chnpress.com/news/?Section=2&id=5871

Musasir Temple discovered in Rabat Tepe
 
Remains discovered in Rabat Tepe tell of a temple belonging to the Musasir civilization.
Archaeologists believe remains they have discovered in Rabat Tepe, North West of Iran, belong to a Musasir civilization temple, probably leading to the discovering of nation-states Sargon occupied some 3000 years ago.

http://www.geocities.com/paris/leftbank/6507/chronicle400.html#musasir

Musasir Temple, the Prototype of the Classical Greek Temples
 


And now, in the year 1986 or 2,700 years later, the author of this article has the audacity to claim that Musasir deserves the attention of the architectural world for no other reason than the preservation of the drawing of the temple by Flandin which accompanies the dissertation. Please look at the drawing and follow my line of reasoning. Here we see the oldest of the temples Ararat which, according to reliable sources, was built around 825 BC in the city of Musasir, which can be located with some certainty in the area between lakes Van and Urmia, in Historic Armenia.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 27-Jul-2008 at 14:27
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2008 at 17:32

Amlash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amlash_County

Amlash County (Persian: شهرستان املش) is a county in Gilan Province in Iran. The capital of the county is Amlash.

Amlash is also the name of an important culture which is well represented in all major museums as well as important private collections and galleries of ancient art.

These persian websites mention that some archaeologists, historians and scholars, such as Professor Andre Godard, believe that Amlash culture almost certainly relates to Greek and Etruscan cultures:

http://guilan.irib.ir/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1256&Itemid=241

پروفسور آندره گدار كه اولين رئيس مؤسسه ي باستان شناسي ايران بود ، جنس اشياي به دست آمده از گورستان هاي نواحي املش ، پيركوه ، ديلم و ديگر روستاها را بيشتر از سفال سرخ رنگ دانسته است. طبق نظر او در گورستان هاي ديلم ، اشياي سفالي منقوش اگر هم وجود داشته باشد كشف نشده است ، اما مقدار زياد اشياي طلا و نقره كشف شده در اين ناحيه نشان مي دهد تزئينات آنها گاهي با هنر يوناني ها يا هنر آتروسك وابسته بوده است.

http://iran-travel.blogfa.com/post-72.aspx

تز ئینات انسانی آنها به خصوص از نظر فیگور و حرکت بدن نحوه قرار گرفتن پرسوناژ وحالت رزمی یا جنگی که بخود گرفته سبب شد کارشناسان آنها را با هنر یونانی و هنر اتروسک ( ناحیه ای در ایتالیای مرکزی ) خویشاوند بدانند . این آثارمربوط به اواخر هزاره دوم و اوایل هزاره اول قبل از میلاد می باشند.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2008 at 18:09

Strabo (64 BC – 24 AD), the famous Greek historian and geographer, about Gilakis (Gelae), Cadusians (Cadusii), Amardians (Amardi) and other peoples who lived in the north of Iran, says:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198&query=section%3D%23477
 
Those nomads, however, who live along the coast on the left as one sails into the Caspian Sea are by the writers of today called Däae, I mean, those who are surnamed Aparni; then, in front of them, intervenes a desert country; and next comes Hyrcania, where the Caspian resembles an open sea to the point where it borders on the Median and Armenian mountains. The shape of these mountains is crescent-like along the foothills, which end at the sea and form the recess of the gulf. This side of the mountains, beginning at the sea, is inhabited as far as their heights for a short stretch by a part of the Albanians and the Armenians, but for the most part by Gelae, Cadusii, Amardi, Vitii, and Anariacae. They say that some of the Parrhasii took up their abode with the Anariacae, who, they say, are now called Parsii; and that the Aenianes built a walled city in the Vitian territory, which, they say, is called Aeniana; and that Greek armour, brazen vessels, and burial places are to be seen there; and that there is also a city Anariace there, in which, they say, is to be seen an oracle for sleepers,1 and some other tribes that are more inclined to brigandage and war than to farming; but this is due to the ruggedness of the region. However, the greater part of the seaboard round the mountainous country is occupied by Cadusii, for a stretch of almost five thousand stadia, according to Patrocles,2 who considers this sea almost equal to the Pontic Sea. Now these regions have poor soil.
 
 
In Greek mythology, Guneus was the leader of the Aenienians and Perrhaebians during the Trojan War
 
Aenianes could be the same people of Amlash, as you read Strabo says "Aenianes" built a walled city in the Vitian territory, which, they say, is called Aeniana; and that Greek armour, brazen vessels, and burial places are to be seen there.
 

A GROUP OF TWELVE AMLASH BRONZE VOTIVE FIGURES CIRCA 1000 B.C. ( http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4889583 )

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0077-8958(1972)5%3C25%3AABVFIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2 : "A Bronze Vase from Iran and Its Greek Connections"
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 02-Aug-2008 at 18:10
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 08:13

Read these threads:

Statues of Zeus and her wife in Heraglan (NW Iran) (Hera-Gelan)

The huge Head of Zeus in the north west of Iran (Gela-deh)

Lets see again what great Greek stone-cutters have done in Geladeh:

This is really a Masonry Masterpiece!

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/sicily/gela/ :

Ancient Coinage of Sicily, Gela

Forepart of man-headed bull (the river-god Gelas):

So this is man-headed bull (the river-god Gelas):

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  Quote norsken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2008 at 00:03
Gilan and Mazandaran were closely related to Parthians and  possibly other saka tribes.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2008 at 05:47

You are right about Mazani people, as I said in another thread there were two types of Scythian tribes in the north of Iran: Saka Haumavargau (Amyrgioi Scythians) and Saka Haumazan (Amazon Scythians), "Zan" in Iranian languages means woman and in Zoroastrianism "Hauma" is a sacred drink and also a powerful deity, in the middle Persian language, Haumazan was simplified to "Mazani" and their land was called "Mazandaran".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons : Amazons had their right breast cut off or burnt out, so they would be able to use a bow more freely and throw spears without the physical limitation and obstruction; there is no indication of such a practice in works of art, in which the Amazons are always represented with both breasts, although the right is frequently covered.


Statue of an Amazon, 1st–2nd century A.D.
Roman copy of a Greek bronze statue, ca. 450–425 B.C.


Statue of an Amazon Goddess, found in Mazandaran, Sassanid period

In Mazandaran that is woman who still asks for the hand of a man in marriage, it may sounds strange but here men work at home and women do hard works in the farms and other places.

http://www.parstimes.com/women/employment_rural_women.html "Case studies show the situation of women and their labor force. In the villages of Gilan and Mazandaran provinces, women are considerably active and have a high share in productive activities. In the village of Ahandan in Gilan, women form 76 per cent of the labor force in rice-planting and 80 per cent in tea- planting. ... In most villages in Gilan and Mazandaran, a group of women under the supervision of a woman who is called "Mobasher" (Supervisor) go to the neighboring villages for weeding and planting seedlings."

In most of villages in Mazandaran these are women who rule and men should respect them, for example "Village of Alasht in Mazandaran":

http://www.chnpress.com/news/?section=1&id=1004 : "Walking in the streets of Alasht, men should remember that facing any woman they must lower their head and say hello, because there is the Village of women. ... As a matter of fact this building is a shrine called Dokhtar-e Pak (Immaculate Girl). Locals believe that this shrine belongs to a grand lady and according to an old superstition, men should not approach the shrine or they will be bitten by its guardian serpent. Every weekend women and girls pray in the shrine in the hope of meeting their wishes."

In the southern coast of the Caspian Sea (Mazandaran), Alexander was visited by Thalestris, Queen of the Amazons in the autumn of 330 BC.

http://www.pothos.org/content/index.php?page=lovers : "The dress of the Amazons does not entirely cover the body", says Curtius. "The left side is bare to the breast [...] One breast is kept whole for feeding children of female sex and the right is cauterized". Thalestris' eyes examined Alexander's body, and found that it in no way matched his reputation, as Curtius continues. Still, wearing her full armour, she begged Alexander to conceive a child with her. They spent "thirteen days" together as a couple (Just. 12.3; Diod. 17.77), while Alexander was "serving her passion" although "the woman's passion for sex was greater than Alexander's" (Curt. 6.5).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6661426/

Woman warrior found in Iranian tomb
Gender determined by DNA testing, archaeologist says

These days, Iranian women are not even allowed to watch men compete on the soccer field, but 2,000 years ago they could have been carving the boys to pieces on the battlefield.
DNA tests on the 2,000-year-old bones of a sword-wielding Iranian warrior have revealed the broad-framed skeleton belonged to a woman, an archaeologist working in the northwestern city of Tabriz said Saturday.
“Despite earlier comments that the warrior was a man because of the metal sword, DNA tests showed the skeleton inside the tomb belonged to a female warrior,” Alireza Hojabri-Nobari told the Hambastegi newspaper.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 04-Aug-2008 at 05:50
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2008 at 23:11

After Samamos, the most famous mountain in Gilan province is Spinas or Sfinas near the city of Astara. (NW Iran) -> http://www.world-walker.com/persia/hotel/htlteh/espinas.htm

Astra could be related to "Astraea", daughter of Zeus, Greek goddess of justice -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astraea_%28mythology%29

Strabo talks about an Etruscan "Spina" -> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/5A*.html "Between the two cities is Butrium, a town belonging to Ravenna, and also Spina, which though now only a small village, long ago was a Greek city of repute. At any rate, a treasury of the Spinitae is to be seen at Delphi; and everything else that history tells about them shows that they were once masters of the sea. Moreover, it is said that Spina was once situated by the sea, although at the present time the place is in the interior, about ninety stadia distant from the sea."

There is a winged monster in Greek mythology, having a woman’s head and a lion’s body, who propounded a riddle and killed those who failed to solve it. I belive "Spinas" is the Gilaki name of it.


A Greek Sphinx


Polychrome glazed tiles from Qalaichi, NW Iran -> http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Art/porada/porada-hasanlu.htm

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 18:02
A very interesting hypothesis. Although i am too skeptical about this. Concerning architecture ,have you consulted architecture historians ? 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 20:14
As you said this is just a hypothesis but I don't think this is to be very strange, this region can be considered as the eastern part of Asia Minor, there could be some migrations from the west to the east.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2008 at 15:34
And I didn't get anything of what he said....Greeks are Semitic??
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  Quote Ardashir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2008 at 18:42
What an interesting thread ! I think Cyrus has done most of the work, but I would like to add my 2 censt.
 
1-I think, frankly speaking, this observation, on the possible Greek origin of some part of the Gilaki people, adds weight to the THOMAS V. GAMKRELIDZE AND V. V. IVANOV's theory about the Proto-Indo-European homeland being in the Southern Caucaus and Eastern Anatolia. If we take that theory about the PIE people as granted, there would be NO surprise about some vilages in Gilan, being remnants of the some Greek people who moved Eastward instead of westward in the second millenuim BC, ending up in Gilan.
 
Take notice of these words from Gamkrelidze's theory:
 
...These words seem to confirm the Greeks' belief that their ancestors had come from western Asia, as recounted in the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, who sought the Golden Fleece in Colchis, on the eastern shore of the Black Sea. The evidence that the Greeks came thence to their historical homeland puts the Greek "colonies" on the northern shore of the Black Sea in a new light. The colonies may now be considered as very early settlements that were established when the Greeks began migrating to their final home in the Aegean.
 
So we can assume that some Greek tribes moved eastward.
 
2- From the Shahnameh, we know clearly that people of Northern Iran, were non-Iranians. You often find the word "Div" to describe them and one of the regular scenes of Shahnameh is the battles of Iranians, led by Rostam, fighting with these Divs. Here I would like to ask Cyrus (or other Iranians here) to take a look at Khonji's theory regarding the ethnic roots of these non-Iranian people. He writes that since Iranians had become worshipers of Ahura, they would have called the other Aryan worshipers of Diva as their enemies. (Takin into account that Indian Aryans and Scythians were worshipers of Diva).
 
 
So my theory is this:
 
Gilakis and Mazandranis, are in large part, a mix of old Greco-Scythian people with the new Iranian invaders.
 
Regarding genetics, I remeber Dienekes Pontikos had done a research confirming the fact that the ultimate origins of Greeks are in Asia Minor.
 
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