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Greek presence in Iran since 2nd millenium B.C.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greek presence in Iran since 2nd millenium B.C.
    Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 13:04
Originally posted by Flipper

Thank you very much again Cyrus.
Very interresting! I was unaware of the report of Herodotus. However, the blonde elements are probably not from Greece. Ancient Greeks had in majority dark brown hair.

 
Flipper you yourself made a very good observation when you said that the village looks Epirotan,it looks indeed Epirotan,since i am myself from south of Albania and we have extremely similar villages.The homes are exactly the same,i will bring some pictures latter.
 
About the Blonde element you might be wrong.The cities in south Albania have majority dark brown hair,but is not the same for the villages and the rural areas,there people have mainly blond hair and red hair is very common,specially i would say children are overwhelmingly blond haired.I think is the same for Villages in Greece on the borders with Albania.The Cham population for example (which of course come from Greece) are mainly blond aswell.
I will hopefully get some pictures soon.
 
By the way that was such an beautifull place.Thanks for this nice pictures.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 13:40
Lets have a look at the simmilarities,this are some pictuires from south Albania.
Click%20to%20view%20full%20size%20image
 
 
 
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And now some pictures from Albanian Villages in Italy,this Albanian people have come to Italy many centuries ago from Albania and from Morea,and many other places in Greece,mainly Epiros.
 
 
 
 
 
So i think we can see a great simmilarity between Epiros and this place in Iran.
 
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 14:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 

 

 
Take a look at the simmilarities
 
Click%20to%20view%20full%20size%20image
 
Click%20to%20view%20full%20size%20image
 
 
Are not this striking simmilarities????????
 
I think one should not exlude the Ottoman element there,but still the essence of it is Epiros.
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 19:13
All those villages exist in similar areas so it's obvious that people would find similar solutions in architecture.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 21:04
Perhaps,all i am saing is that the architectural style is very simmilar.
 
And is strange that this specific Epirotan style,which for example can not be found in other simmilar places near Epiros (by Epiros i always refer to South of Albania and the north of Greece),for example can not be found in Eastern Greece or Macedonia,or Northern Albania,can not be found in any other country,but can be found in a village in Iran then this is strange.I would say that is possible that people from Epiros have once settled for one reason or another in this Iranian village.Why not?
 
By the way,this style of Village is found in Italy aswell,as i have brought pictures to prove it.
Not only in Albanian areas of Italy,but Greek  areas as well,is very similar style of Villages.
Also Sicilian and southern Italian Villages in general are very simillar to the ones i have posted above.
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 23:33
Architecture certainly relates to climate, outer environment and other things, it is obvious that if Greeks migrated to the deserts of Iran, they wouldn't build these gable-roof houses there, but as Heroi said why we can't find similar villages in other countries? I think the most important thing is "culture", there should be a reason that the houses of Gilan are being built entirely of wood, as Herodotus said about 2,500 years ago, nothing has been changed, but this Kandalos village is completely different, and we see Darius the Great about his palace says "The stone-cutters who wrought the stone, those were all Greeks".
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 08:22

About Epirus: http://www.greecetaxi.gr/index/epirus_zagoria.html
>>"The builders and stonemasons of Epirus were famous in the old days. Originating from the villages north of Aoos river, they traveled all over the area, undertaking constructions in distant places."<<

The area may be depopulated today, but the beautiful large private homes and public buildings are a testament to the flourishing past. Their grey, heavy stone roofs rise over the thick vegetation. Stone-paved streets cross the villages. The houses are built with stones and wood, and their walls are thick to withstand the harsh weather conditions and the winter snow. Stone-built walls surround the yards, which are guarded by beautiful, heavy, wooden gates. Fortunately, many of these buildings now have been restored and modernized properly, and several have been turned into hotels and pensions, retaining the traditional style. What is more important is that the area has kept its serenity and is rarely crowded with people .. 

http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2006/October2006/07-10-3000.htm : LONDON, (CAIS) -- Archeologists in the ancient site of Gohar Tappeh (also Tepe -an archaeological mound), northern Iran, discovered a street with stone pavements belonging to nearly 3000 years ago.

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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 09:52
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

About Epirus: http://www.greecetaxi.gr/index/epirus_zagoria.html
>>"The builders and stonemasons of Epirus were famous in the old days. Originating from the villages north of Aoos river, they traveled all over the area, undertaking constructions in distant places."<<

The area may be depopulated today, but the beautiful large private homes and public buildings are a testament to the flourishing past. Their grey, heavy stone roofs rise over the thick vegetation. Stone-paved streets cross the villages. The houses are built with stones and wood, and their walls are thick to withstand the harsh weather conditions and the winter snow. Stone-built walls surround the yards, which are guarded by beautiful, heavy, wooden gates. Fortunately, many of these buildings now have been restored and modernized properly, and several have been turned into hotels and pensions, retaining the traditional style. What is more important is that the area has kept its serenity and is rarely crowded with people .. 

http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2006/October2006/07-10-3000.htm : LONDON, (CAIS) -- Archeologists in the ancient site of Gohar Tappeh (also Tepe -an archaeological mound), northern Iran, discovered a street with stone pavements belonging to nearly 3000 years ago.



Basically, stone architecture is used in many places around Greece, like for example Eubia, Peloponesus, Chalkidiki, Pelion and some islands. However, the Pindus architecture is unique that's why i mentioned it. The Pindus architecture is different that for example the one in Ioanina or other places in Epirus.

As for my grandfathers family, they were stonecutters from western macedonia, just 15km from the Pindus chain. The family was offered a job in Istanbul as stone artisans and then moved to Bursa to settle for some time.


Edited by Flipper - 22-Jul-2008 at 10:05


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 09:55
Originally posted by HEROI

About the Blonde element you might be wrong.The cities in south Albania have majority dark brown hair,but is not the same for the villages and the rural areas,there people have mainly blond hair and red hair is very common,specially i would say children are overwhelmingly blond haired.


Heroi, the blonde element went for the Gilakis who were half Greek, half Scythian. The connection Cyrus made was to Arcadia not Pindus in Epirus which was mentioned because it keeps traditional architecture. Albanians can be light haired but that is irrelevant. Ancient Greeks were usually brown/dark brown.


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 10:00
Originally posted by HEROI

And is strange that this specific Epirotan style,which for example can not be found in other simmilar places near Epiros (by Epiros i always refer to South of Albania and the north of Greece),for example can not be found in Eastern Greece or Macedonia,or Northern Albania,can not be found in any other country,but can be found in a village in Iran then this is strange.I would say that is possible that people from Epiros have once settled for one reason or another in this Iranian village.Why not?


Heroi, the Pindus (not specifically Epirus) architecture is found in south western (or upper) macedonia  (Boia) as well. Also, Pelion in Thessaly is known for its stone architecture combined with wood. Stone villages otherwise can be found everywhere in Greece depending on the environment. The same goes for every place in the balkans.

Also, the settlers are supposed to be Arcadians.


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 10:04
Generally Cyrus, very good post! Clap I have learned something new.

I was amazed by the golden depictions of those Gilaki creatures. The idea of a local cult based on a mix of Babylonian and Greek mythology is intriguing.


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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 21:22

You are welcome! Smile

As I said, Kandelos vilage is near the Zanos valley (west Mazandaran), what could be the meaning of Zanos?

This Persian website:http://rezafaraji.blogfa.com/post-223.aspx says "تلفظ مي كنند  (Zanes) زانوس را زانس" Zanus is pronounced "Zanes" in the local language.

http://gogreece.about.com/od/mythology/a/olympicmyths.htm -> Statues called "Zanes", based on the ancient Cretan name of Zeus, Zan.

http://www.zoniana.gr/name_en.htm -> Even today one of the valleys of Mount Ida in Crete is named “Zeus’ Valley – Zoulakkos” and a common invocation of the inhabitants is: “May Zeus lend a favourable ear to me” (“Ikoute me Zone Thee”).

Therefore "Zan/Zanes/Zone" could mean "Zeus" in Greek.
 
Lets create a false etymology for Mazandaran: Mega-Zan-Doron "Gift of the great Zeus"?

At least I think it is better than "mahs Indra" (Great/Big Indra, a vedic god) which has been mentioned in several websites, such as:

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Mazandaran.htm
http://www.wikipedia.biz/wikipedia/ma/Mazandaran.html
http://encyclopedia.kids.net.au/page/ma/Mazandaran
http://www.ladyghost.com/mazandaran.html
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 09:12

I believe the Old Greek word for "Dragonfly" was "Chichilas" or "Chrichilas", wasn't it?

The Gilaki word is Chichilas: http://foto.ir/Gallery/ShowImage.aspx?ID=26595

It could be related to Chrysalis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupa#Chrysalis

A chrysalis (Latin chrysallis, from Greek χρυσαλλίς = chrysallís, pl: chrysalides) or nympha is the pupal stage of butterflies. The term is derived from the metallic gold-colouration found in the pupae of many butterflies referred to by the Greek term χρυσός (chrysós) for gold.
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 11:36
In case I'm adding something to this discussion: most -if not all- of the golden Scythian artifacts were crafted by Greek artists from the Black sea colonies, not by Scythes themselves.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 12:26
Not to be a wet blanket, but while we may find something Greek about this village. The people in that part of Iran, are distinctively Iranian in their background. The languages up in that Gilan-mazarandan (sp?)  area have been quite isolated from foreign language interference, unlike Parsi- oops FarsiWink.   Flipper, much like Tsakonian. The archaisms themselves, i suspect make names look similar.

 I would make an educated guess, their genetics are also isolated. but i will need to search around to see if that a fact. Mountain people preserve archaisms. I guess if there was a passing hellenic infleunce (endless possbilities) it may have clung on in this village.



Edited by Leonidas - 23-Jul-2008 at 12:31
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 16:18

I found some interesting info:

http://www.classicistranieri.com/english/1/9/1/5/19153/19153-h/19153-h.htm

SAN, SON, ZAN, ZAAN.
The most common name for the Sun was San, and Son; expressed also Zan, Zon, and Zaan. Zeus of Crete, who was supposed to have been buried in that Island, is said to have had the following inscription on his tomb:

[136]Ὡδε μεγας κειται Ζαν, ὁν Δια κικλησκουσι.

The Ionians expressed it Ζην, and Ζηνα. Hesychius tells us, that the Sun was called Σαως by the Babylonians. It is to be observed that the Grecians in foreign words continually omitted the Nu final, and substituted a Sigma. The true Babylonish name for the Sun was undoubtedly Σαων, oftentimes expressed Σωαν, Soan. It was the same as Zauan of the Sidonians; under which name they worshipped Adonis, or the Sun. Hesychius says, Ζαυανας, θεος τις εν Σιδωνι. Who the Deity was, I think may be plainly seen. It is mentioned by the same writer, that the Indian Hercules, by which is always meant the chief Deity, was styled Dorsanes: Δορσανης ὁ Ἡρακλης παρ' Ινδοις. The name Dorsanes is an abridgment of Ador-San, or Ador-Sanes, that is Ador-Sol, the lord of light. It was a title conferred upon Ham; and also upon others of his family; whom I have before mentioned to have been collectively called the Baalim.

 
Almannus and Celticus came from the fact that a similar hero was worshiped by the Germans and Celts, themselves noted for strength and daring deeds, and said to have been descended from Hercules. The unexplained Pataecus and Epipataecus are from Egypt; Maceris, from Libya; while Desanaus, Desanes, and Dosanes, or Dorsanes, are said to be of Hindu origin.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 16:42

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/1509.html

The Cretan Heracles, one of the Idaean Dactyls, was believed to have founded the temple of Zeus at Olympia (Paus. v. 13. § 5), but to have origin­ally come from Egypt. (Diod. iv. 18.) The tra­ditions about him resemble those of the Greek Heracles (Diod. v. 76 ; Paus. ix. 27. § 5) ; but it is said that he lived at a much earlier period than the Greek hero, and that the latter only imitated him. Eusebius states that his name was Diodas, and Hieronymus makes it Desanaus. He was worshipped with funeral sacrifices, and was re­garded as a magician, like other ancient daemones of Crete. (Cic. de Nat. Deor. iii. 16 ; Diod. v, 64.)
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 17:17
Assyrians have called people of Gilan and Mazandaran as "Spartans", their land "Sparta/Sparda" and one of their king "Dosanes".
 
For example, the queries of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, to the sun-god:
 
Years of Alulim
Will Kaštaritu Conquer Karibtu
Should Esarhaddon Send his Messenger to Kaštaritu
Will Dusanni of Saparda or Kaštaritu Appear before the City
Fragmentary Query Concerning Kaštaritu
Will Kaštaritu or Dusanni Conquer Kilman
Will Chief Eunuch Ša-Nabu-šu Capture Amul
 
You can find those place and people names, here: http://knp.prs.heacademy.ac.uk/peoplegodsplaces/
As you read it has also mentioned that Amul is modern Amol in Mazandaran province: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amol
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 17:51
Originally posted by Yiannis

In case I'm adding something to this discussion: most -if not all- of the golden Scythian artifacts were crafted by Greek artists from the Black sea colonies, not by Scythes themselves.
interesting, what about the origin of griffin?
 
 

The internet should never be the primary source for information, and should always be used with extreme caution. This page has come into existence because I stumbled upon an internet site dedicated to the griffin (alernately: "gryphon", "gryps"). On that site the author stated that the griffin was adopted by Greeks from the Scythians in the 6th century BC... and the reasoning proffered as a means of supporting this hypothesis was that the author of that page had never encountered the griffin's role in any Greek myth. This page contains griffins from the Greek world that are one thousand years older than the Scythian-adoption claim made on that site. The earliest depictions of griffins occur on the Greek island of Thera and date to the 17th century BC or earlier.
In the Wikipedia entry on the griffin, the Aegean griffins are entirely omitted, hence creating the impression that the origin of the griffin lies instead in the Near East. What is depicted is a griffin from Marlik, Iran (pictured below), which dates to between the 12th - 13th centuries BC (c. 1250-1150 BC). The griffins of the Aegean predate the Marlik griffin by 400 years.
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 20:31
Originally posted by Leonidas

Not to be a wet blanket, but while we may find something Greek about this village. The people in that part of Iran, are distinctively Iranian in their background. The languages up in that Gilan-mazarandan (sp?)  area have been quite isolated from foreign language interference, unlike Parsi- oops FarsiWink.   Flipper, much like Tsakonian. The archaisms themselves, i suspect make names look similar.

 I would make an educated guess, their genetics are also isolated. but i will need to search around to see if that a fact. Mountain people preserve archaisms. I guess if there was a passing hellenic infleunce (endless possbilities) it may have clung on in this village.
 
People of Gilan and Mazandaran are certainly Iranian peoples, there is no doubt, but what is your definition of Iranian? People who live in Iran or speak an Iranian language? However I myself belive Gilaki is also an Iranian langugae but I have to admit that there are some important grammatical and lexical differences between Gilaki and other Iranian languages, even Mazandarani language, some of those difference have been mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_language


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 23-Jul-2008 at 20:35
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