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Is Israel about to strike at Iran?

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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Israel about to strike at Iran?
    Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 02:00
I'm starting to piece toghther evidence that Israel is preparing to strike at Iran's nuclear program. Reasons being as most people have heard about the IAF manevuars in the Mederaterian and the rumors that Israel will hit Iran if Senator Obama is elected President of my nation in November and try to seek a green light from out going President Bush's Adminstration to do it. In my opinion this all makes perfect sense as if a President Obama is in power in Washington, he is going to be preparing in terms of foreign policy to begin diplomatic talks with the Iranians over their nuclear program. This would therefore block any possible Israeli attempt to strike at Iran without having a massive falling out with Obama's Adminstartion in Washington. In addtion any after effects of a strike on Iran that would effect Israel would tie a President elect Obama to Israeli's and one his Preesidenc couldn't fail to deviler on without having a bad effect on US-Israeli Relations and no to mention the future outlook for his Adminstartion in Washington or with the Jewish Community which has at least some doubts with him to begin with. However if Israel does nonthing in the transition months they will be powerless to do nothing in the future in regards to Iran.

What does everyone think?                  
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 02:54
Geopolitical considerations are more permanent and more important than governmental elections.  It is not in the interests of either the US or of Israel to strike Iran.  Iran can and will be contained regardless of nuclear weapons.
 
It has been noted before that Israeli strategic capability is primarily defensive, and that demonstrations, such as over the Med, are for public consumption.  Israeli capability cannot be dismissed, but sustaining complex operations so far from their own territory would be too difficult.
 
What Obama will or won't do is yet to be determined.  First, he has to win the election, and then get support among congressional leadership for policies that could impact US interests.  Election rhetoric cannot be considered policy in any way.  Numerous policy statements in summer, 2008 can (and probably will) change by winter, 2009.  In any event, Olmert has his own domestic issues, and is a wounded lame duck in Israel.
 
Anyway, it is unwise to over emphasize Presidential/Congressional elections when making assessments of geopolitical interests.  Those do not change much...ever.  Politicians come and go.  Allies materialize and disappear.  Assessments of vital interests; of where those are, and of options to attain or to protect them are made every day by all powers.  Israel understands that unilateral action in the absence of an attack will, these days, cost far more than can be gained.  No net advantage there.
 
Iranians are smart people.  They are not likely to damage their interests by attacking Israel with nuclear weapons even 1) if they had them, and 2) if they had dependable delivery systems which they don't.  Iran's strengths are defensive technology and asymmetrical experience.  That is fine, but neither are strategic in nature, but are essentially political bargaining points.
 
Over time, Iran is going to have bigger problems than an Israeli state that doesn't even border their territory, and should not even be considered a threat to Iran.  Regardless of posturing and of publicity, Iran's geostrategic position is very weak, and her conduct of geopolitical policies is quite shortsighted.
 
 
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 03:08
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Geopolitical considerations are more permanent and more important than governmental elections.  It is not in the interests of either the US or of Israel to strike Iran.  Iran can and will be contained regardless of nuclear weapons.
 

It has been noted before that Israeli strategic capability is primarily defensive, and that demonstrations, such as over the Med, are for public consumption.  Israeli capability cannot be dismissed, but sustaining complex operations so far from their own territory would be too difficult.

 

What Obama will or won't do is yet to be determined.  First, he has to win the election, and then get support among congressional leadership for policies that could impact US interests.  Election rhetoric cannot be considered policy in any way.  Numerous policy statements in summer, 2008 can (and probably will) change by winter, 2009.  In any event, Olmert has his own domestic issues, and is a wounded lame duck in Israel.

 

Anyway, it is unwise to over emphasize Presidential/Congressional elections when making assessments of geopolitical interests.  Those do not change much...ever.  Politicians come and go.  Allies materialize and disappear.  Assessments of vital interests; of where those are, and of options to attain or to protect them are made every day by all powers.  Israel understands that unilateral action in the absence of an attack will, these days, cost far more than can be gained.  No net advantage there.

 

Iranians are smart people.  They are not likely to damage their interests by attacking Israel with nuclear weapons even 1) if they had them, and 2) if they had dependable delivery systems which they don't.  Iran's strengths are defensive technology and asymmetrical experience.  That is fine, but neither are strategic in nature, but are essentially political bargaining points.

 

Over time, Iran is going to have bigger problems than an Israeli state that doesn't even border their territory, and should not even be considered a threat to Iran.  Regardless of posturing and of publicity, Iran's geostrategic position is very weak, and her conduct of geopolitical policies is quite shortsighted.

 

 


I was just talking about if Israel does strike at Iran, looking at things I don't think Iran is actually going to hit Israel as they want these weapons for other possible issues as well. In addition keep in mind Israel also fears the possiblty of a nuclear armed Iran giving such weapons to other entities in the region that are outright hostile to Israel.     
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 03:09
Kevin:
 
Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink
 
 
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 03:12
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kevin:
 

Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink

 

 


I'm talking more about Hezbollah, or perhaps even Syria?
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 03:13
Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kevin:
 

Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink

 

 


I'm talking more about Hezbollah, or perhaps even Syria?


However that would be geopolitcal suicide for all parties involved in such a transaction.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 11:42

Bush would certainly love to leave another war for his successors to solve. 

But, wouldn't the truth be that Iran will have counterstruck before the Israeli missiles land? So, we'd have a nuclear war that would decimate the entire Near East... 

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 12:23
Iran can hit Israel with a number of N korean misile knock offs and more effectivly via hezbollah.

But they don't, as far as we know, have the capacity to weaponise uranium (or have enough of that grade) let alone miniturise it for ballistic delivary. Iran would not invite a Isreal Nuke attack with a loner attack. It simply has more to lose.

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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 12:37
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kevin:
 
Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink
 
 


Iran is Persian. Arabs don't really like them. Are there any other Siite states ecxept Iran and Iraq?


Edited by Vorian - 07-Jul-2008 at 12:38
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 13:13
Originally posted by Vorian

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kevin:
 
Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink
 
here's some more chatter on the topic
 


Iran is Persian. Arabs don't really like them. Are there any other Siite states ecxept Iran and Iraq?
Azerbaijan but they may not count as friends, Syria is run by an alawi regime but im not sure that really counts.


PENTAGON chiefs fear that Israeli plans for an attack on Iran's nuclear program will fail to destroy the facilities because neither the CIA nor Mossad knows where every base is located.

US commanders fear Israel will feel compelled to act within 12 months, with no guarantee that it can do more than slow Iran's development of a nuclear weapon.

Gaps in intelligence on the precise location and the vulnerabilities of Iran's facilities emerged during recent talks between Admiral Mike Mullen, the US chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Israeli generals.

The assessment emerged as Iran in effect thumbed its nose at proposals by the West for Tehran to freeze its uranium enrichment program in exchange for the easing of economic sanctions. In its reply sent to the European Union's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, Iran said it was prepared to negotiate, but only from a position of equality, and made no reference to the specific proposals.

"Iran will not go back on its rights on the nuclear issue," said a Government spokesman, Gholamhossein Elham. "The will of the Iranian people is firm and will continue to follow the principles defined by the supreme guide [Ayatollah Ali Khamenei]."

"Iran insists on negotiations [with world powers] while respecting its rights and avoiding any loss of international rights," he said, referring to Tehran's refusal to give up on nuclear enrichment.

At the same time General Mohammed al-Jafari, the head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, warned that any attack on Iran would be "regarded as the beginning of war".

A former head of Mossad, the Israeli agency whose main responsibility is overseas intelligence, said last week that Israel would have to act within a year to prevent Iran securing nuclear weapons.

Those familiar with the Israeli-American military talks believe that Israel is still determined to act before Iran has enough highly enriched uranium to build a bomb, and before Tehran has acquired the Russian SA-20 air defence system to protect its nuclear facilities.

"The Israelis have a real sense of urgency," an official familiar with the discussions said. "They are stepping up their preparations. But the Israelis and the Americans are worried about each other's lack of intelligence.

"The Americans had spies in Iran until they were rounded up in 2003 and now they do not have much by way of [human intelligence] on the ground. The Israelis have better information. But the Americans went away from the meetings unconvinced that the Israelis have enough intelligence on where to strike, and with little confidence that they will be able to destroy the nuclear program."

The shortage of good intelligence could explain reports that the US President, George Bush, has sanctioned a dramatic increase in covert operations by US special forces troops inside Iran. These intelligence gaps lay behind Admiral Mullen's decision to speak out on Wednesday against military action, saying it would be "extremely stressful" to "open a third front" in the "war on terror". The admiral is at odds with hawks in the Administration, led by the Vice-President, Dick Cheney.

A former CIA officer with 30 years of Iranian experience said: "The US would get the blame from Iran whether or not we play a major role in any attack, so we might as well do the job properly."

Telegraph, London; Agence France-Presse

SMH



Edited by Leonidas - 07-Jul-2008 at 13:19
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 15:37

The fact that Israeli Military is well trained, doesn't mean that they will win or even, succeed. If they launch their missiles, then Iran will do the same, and I have a feeling that Iran has more of them... (Both have intercontinental ballistic missile weaponry, right?)

Anyways, the only Israeli to do so, would most likely be a very old, bearded General that's insane. 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 16:43
Originally posted by Vorian

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kevin:
 
Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink
 
 


Iran is Persian. Arabs don't really like them. Are there any other Siite states ecxept Iran and Iraq?
 
Iran is about half Persian, but it is a good point that Iran is mostly non-Arab.  Historically, relations between Persians and Arabs have not been good.  Arabs are concerned with the possibility of Iran's hegemony in the Gulf and in the region.  This is a geopolitical weakness in Iran's position as they remain isolated and viewed with suspicion by nearly all of their neighbors, and on almost all flanks.
 
As far as nukes are concerned, it matters not if Mullah Iran or non-Mullah Iran has nuclear capability, either is bad for the West as well as for regional powers.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 07-Jul-2008 at 17:03
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 16:49
Originally posted by rider

The fact that Israeli Military is well trained, doesn't mean that they will win or even, succeed. If they launch their missiles, then Iran will do the same, and I have a feeling that Iran has more of them... (Both have intercontinental ballistic missile weaponry, right?)

Anyways, the only Israeli to do so, would most likely be a very old, bearded General that's insane. 

 
AFAIK, neither has intercontinental capability.  However, that technology is not so mysterious any longer, so it could be likely that they will aquire it before too long.  Their missile technology is intermediate in range; who knows about the sophistication of the guidance systems, and who knows about their multi-target capability?  They are not talking.
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 17:02
Beyond this Iran-Israel fetish, what are the geopolitical ramifications of Iranian hegemony in the region?  (I don't think they have the resources to pull it off, but it is a geopolitical question.)
 
Iran has understood that since the oil age, from about 1900, she holds a very central geographic position in the locus of oil (and now all hydrocarbon resources). Britain, the USSR and the US have interfered, intervened and operated clandestinely for their own interests at least since the first World War.  Iran/Persia, as a more minor power, has had to put up with it.
 
What are the issues of Iranian influence and/or control over the vast energy resources of the region?  How could other state interests allow that, and in whose interests would such a situation be?
 
Play nice, please.
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 17:21
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Vorian

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kevin:
 

Don't look for Iran to give any nukes to Sunni Moslem states.  Wink

 

 
Iran is Persian. Arabs don't really like them. Are there any other Siite states ecxept Iran and Iraq?

 

Iran is about half Persian, but it is a good point that Iran is mostly non-Arab.  Historically, relations between Persians and Arabs have not been good.  Arabs are concerned with the possibility of Iran's hegemony in the Gulf and in the region.  This is a geopolitical weakness in Iran's position as they remain isolated and viewed with suspicion by nearly all of their neighbors, and on almost all flanks.

 

As far as nukes are concerned, it matters not if Mullah Iran or non-Mullah Iran has nuclear capability, either is bad for the West as well as for regional powers.

 

 


When I said other entites I was meaning some group like Hezbollah.

I know the Iranians are nor going to give a bomb to an Arab state except maybe Syria.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 21:26
Hello to you all
 
Well it depends on so many things that no body can be quite certain. Israel cannot and will not go on it alone and even if there is an agreement between Iran and the EU Israel will still contemplate a strike no matter what.
 
One thing for sure is that Israel wants the whole world to stand by it for support and guarantee that it will not be left alone, that is if the strike fails, and most likely will have a limited success, the world will go to war against Iran if it retaliates. That is a very hard thing to guarantee since it is a declaration of war period. Iran will retaliate and the Israelis are also genuinly afraid of it severity and effects of its already not so good economy.The international courting of Syria is not so strange after all, the call for the scrap of the Harriri government, the gloomy silence about the hizbs coup in Lebanon and inviting the enemy Bashar to France's highest honour, the Bastilles day, are all indications of a coming strike.
 
The window for a strike is closing fast, by October, the possibily will deminish greatly for climatic reasons, the start of the rainy season and high winds. By November fog, rain and snow storms. Another chance will not come till next April. So the next few weeks should be very decisive and hope to God that nothing serious happens because there is nothing good that comes from war.
 
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  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 22:02
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 

Well it depends on so many things that no body can be quite certain. Israel cannot and will not go on it alone and even if there is an agreement between Iran and the EU Israel will still contemplate a strike no matter what.

 

One thing for sure is that Israel wants the whole world to stand by it for support and guarantee that it will not be left alone, that is if the strike fails, and most likely will have a limited success, the world will go to war against Iran if it retaliates. That is a very hard thing to guarantee since it is a declaration of war period. Iran will retaliate and the Israelis are also genuinly afraid of it severity and effects of its already not so good economy.The international courting of Syria is not so strange after all, the call for the scrap of the Harriri government, the gloomy silence about the hizbs coup in Lebanon and inviting the enemy Bashar to France's highest honour, the Bastilles day, are all indications of a coming strike.

 

The window for a strike is closing fast, by October, the possibily will deminish greatly for climatic reasons, the start of the rainy season and high winds. By November fog, rain and snow storms. Another chance will not come till next April. So the next few weeks should be very decisive and hope to God that nothing serious happens because there is nothing good that comes from war.

 

Al-Jassas


Al-Jassas since you live in the region, Do you personally feel a strike is coming?   
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 23:25
Well my relatives who serve in the military and/or intelligence haven't given an indication  to the thought that there is a heightened military. They, especially the guys in the special forces, their vacations or are planning to go on vacation and no one bothered them. However there is certain pessimism about the events, any closure of the gulf will mean war and I was told that there is a lot of tension right now in the intelligence community between those who advocate more agressive action and those who still believe that nothing emminent is going to happen. There were some military excercises recently that were called "routine" but I don't think so, the RSAF conducted two excercises this year maybe even three, more than usual and with countries bordering or at enmity with Iran (Pakistan, US and UAE). some days ago there was a confrontation, which is still ongoing, with the Iranian navy and I have'nt asked lately on what happened since.
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2008 at 00:15
Originally posted by Leo

Syria is run by an alawi regime but im not sure that really counts.

Syria is vocally secular if that means anything.
Originally posted by Kevin


When I said other entites I was meaning some group like Hezbollah.

I know the Iranians are nor going to give a bomb to an Arab state except maybe Syria.

Iran isn't going to be given nukes to anyone if they even get them. At most offically condemned engineers may give a few hints away.
Don't forget that no-one, including Iran and Hezbullah, has any motivation ever to nuke Israel even if they had the capability.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2008 at 12:16
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by rider

The fact that Israeli Military is well trained, doesn't mean that they will win or even, succeed. If they launch their missiles, then Iran will do the same, and I have a feeling that Iran has more of them... (Both have intercontinental ballistic missile weaponry, right?)

Anyways, the only Israeli to do so, would most likely be a very old, bearded General that's insane. 

 
AFAIK, neither has intercontinental capability.  However, that technology is not so mysterious any longer, so it could be likely that they will aquire it before too long.  Their missile technology is intermediate in range; who knows about the sophistication of the guidance systems, and who knows about their multi-target capability?  They are not talking.
 
 

There aren't any US spies in Iran's Military Intelligence? I'd be surprised if it was so. 

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