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Vietnam's history

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  Quote joy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vietnam's history
    Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 23:21
1. Nanyue was built by a Qin general called Zhao Tuo. His hometown was in today's northern china.
Does he become viet to u?
2.Today ethnics who liveson old Nanyue's land contain:
Yao/Meo:hmong-mien speakers
Yi:tibeto-burman speakers
Zhuang/Buyi and so on:tai-kam speakers.
Are they all viets?
 
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 10:28
Joy, any minority group member living in Vietnam today is a Vietnamese citizen(whether they like it or not).

Preah, forced assimilation of the Khmer Krom into Vietnamese society began with Minh Mang. He also invaded Cambodia and made it a protectorate. Likewise, he even got into some of the disputes between various Lao principalities, though he never annexed it. The French move into Cochinchina is what ended Vietnamese control of Cambodia. Likewise, under the French, Khmer Krom went back to using their own names and were even governed by the Cambodian royal government in certain aspects, such as military service.

A worthwhile book that covers the assimilation policies of Minh Mang is: Southern Vietnam under the Reign of Minh Mang (1820-1841) by Choi Byung Wook, It was published by Cornell Universities "SEAP" program, so you might talk your local library into borrowing a copy from someone else on the inter-library loan program. Choi contrasts the assimilation policies of Ming Mang, which sparked several rebellions, to the more liberal policies of the Nguyen Lords, and the later Gia Dinh autonomous governments. It effected the Chinese, Cham, and Mountain ethnic minorities as well as the Khmer Krom. (VIetnam was governing Cambodia as a protectorate, so apparently Khmer in Cambodia were not effected by the assimilation laws, though the Vinh Te canal certainly ripped off some of their traditional lands.
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  Quote joy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 18:37
^
So now, viet=chinese,considering hoa of vietnam hold vietnam citizenship and Jing of china hold china citizenship?Wacko
What's ur point?


Edited by joy - 02-Jun-2010 at 18:47
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 19:15
My point? To your question, are they all Viets? The answer is that South of the Vietnam-Chinese border, all the ethnic Chinese, as well as the minorities whose territories lie in Vietnam, are all Vietnamese citizens. that doesn't make them Kinh in the cultural sense. But it does make them 'Nguoi Viet" on their passports. Biet?
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  Quote joy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 20:01

Oh, I use the word "viet", which refer to a certain ethnic. And my question is for Zhao Tuo and the other non-viet ethnic ppl living in old Nanyue kingdom, are they all viets?^^

But I donot know what's ur point.
 


Edited by joy - 02-Jun-2010 at 20:02
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  Quote tnbn75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 13:03
Originally posted by joy

Oh, I use the word "viet", which refer to a certain ethnic. And my question is for Zhao Tuo and the other non-viet ethnic ppl living in old Nanyue kingdom, are they all viets?^^

But I donot know what's ur point.
 


what lirelou is trying to say is that the are all Vietnamese citizens in the same sense that i'm an american citizen.  However, those people may not be ethnically Vietnamese.  Just as i'm not ethnically american, i'm vietnamese. 
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  Quote joy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 06:34
Then sorry ,Nan Yue was found by a Qin general and he has defeated proto-vietnamese kingdom. So it is very funny to see some viets claim they are vietnamese either by citizen or by ethnic. Remember that kingdom was called Nan Yue but never vietnam.
LOL

Edited by joy - 05-Jun-2010 at 06:35
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 19:27
Joy, in re: "So it is very funny to see some viets claim they are vietnamese either by citizen or by ethnic. Remember that kingdom was called Nan Yue but never vietnam."

It is quite plain the the Nan Yue peoples south of the present Viet-China border consciously chose not the be Chinese, while retaining much of Chinese culture. It was the Nguyen dynasty who proposed to reassume the name Nam Viet, but changed it to Vietnam out of consideration for how that would have appeared in Chinese, then still the official written language of the Court. The name Vietnam evokes the earlier Nam Yue origins of the Kinh people, but at the same time underscores that the Vietnamese have now evolved into different nation. Note that the reappearance of the name Vietnam in the 20th Century also coincided with the adoption of Quoc Ngu as the national written language. About as radical a break from Chinese as one can get. The Vietnamese have as much right to claim a Nam Yue origin as the Italians do a Roman origin, and French do the Gauls. Note that both the Austrians and Germans are descended from the same people, but have developed into two different nations over the course of history.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 04:04
Originally posted by lirelou

Note that both the Austrians and Germans are descended from the same people, but have developed into two different nations over the course of history.
Two different states, yes. But they'still speaking the same one language, and living the same one culture. By my defnition, they're still the same one nation, if one uses the original meaning of the term 'nation'.
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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  Quote joy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 17:27
Let's have some brief history lesson.
1. Nan Yue was found by a northern immigration but not local people.
2. Nan Yue was multi-ethnic, oh, please prove that all those ethnic living in old Nan Yue kingdom were all related to vietnamese.
3. Vietnam or northern vietnam is just a tiny part of Nan Yue kingdom and history book said clearly Zhao Tuo conquered the modern time Northern vietnam. Sorry I cannot catch your point. Italy can claim Roman empire's history because it was core part of Roman empire. Your analogy failed, sorry.
Why not take France as analogy?Could france claim Roman empire as their own?

So would u like to claim chinese history as yours because in history northern vietnam was also part of china?LOL
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 22:09
Joy, I'll give you another analogy. It's as if the Confederate States of America had survived as an independent state. They could still call themselves Americans, though not citizens of the U.S. The Dao also live in Vietnam., as do the Tho, Thai, Nung, and H'mong. They, and the Kinh, were all peoples of Nan Yue. Those now on the Chinese side of the border are Chinese minorities, those on the Vietnam side Vietnamese minorities.

And yes, the modern French have more genes going back to Rome than they do the Celtic Gauls. Spain is also a modern nation whose roots go back to Rome, and their language, along with Italian, is the closest to the original Latin.

What's the big deal. No Vietnamese are claiming to be 'Chinese' except those Vietnamese citizens of Chinese heritage who still maintain such cultural association. And only teenage idiots on the internet would claim that any part of modern China is somehow 'VIetnamese' because of a connection to ancient Nan Yue.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 22:16
Shield, Good point, but in re: "if one uses the original meaning of the term 'nation'."  In my day, that included a common history, and that is where the German nations (i.e., German speaking Switzerland, Austria. Luxumbourg, Flemish Belgium, and the Netherlands differ from modern Germany.) Also regarding the last, note that before the 80 year war, they referred to themselves as 'Nederduits' (Low Germans). (ANd, there are Frisians, also another German group slite up among two nation-states.) But, back to Vietnamese history.
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  Quote joy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 23:37

I think you have failed in understanding several things.

First that kingdom was called Nan Yue but not vietnam. So they were not the citizenship of vietnam but citizenship of Nan Yue.
Second, two countries shared the same name but not means they were the same or they have relationship. Example:Could German claim the history of Roman empire?
Third, I really can not understand why vietnam can claim the Nan Yue kingdom? Just because Zhao Tuo had beaten the kings of modern time Northern vietnam? So why not claim some china's dynasty as you own?
Forth, again I  ask you to prove Nan Yue speak a vietic or at least a mon-khmer language. See the name "Nan Yue" , which indicate something. Remember one difference of mon-khmer language and sinitic language is the former one put adjective after noun. So you failed in your analogy again.
 
By the way, the southern vietnam was also part of Khmer empire, So congratulations, according to your opinion,vietnamese can claim history from china to modern time cambodia.LOL
 
 
 


Edited by joy - 06-Jun-2010 at 23:50
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2010 at 16:15
Joy, obviously there is a real barrier of communication existing between us that prevents us from ever reaching any common ground other than emoticons. So, good luck in your Vietnamese history studies.
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  Quote papen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2010 at 16:41
this tread is interesting and thank you for all the information.
Nan Yue and Vietnam are 2 different countries. Nan Yue is including Northern Vietnam, and Guang Dong/ Guang Xi area. While Vietnam is mordern Vietnam (including Northern Vietnam, Champa and southern area).
I agree that it's hard to talk if there's no understanding or one party doesn't try to understand but just keep his stand.
Nan Yue kingdom's history share the history of both Vietnam and Southern China. In ancient time, Vietnam people was a small kingdom, we started from the North which was Nothern Vietnam and expanded to the South, same as China. Yue is the name that China gave to southern people and Vietnamese people (in ancient time) was a part of Bai Yue. Vietnam people expanded to the South and carrying the name with them. Same as Han people in Southern China even though they're Cantonese (mix between Han and Yue people).

If you're a Chinese, then you must know that China's history is huge.  There's not even a country of Vietnam people until the late 900BC for a reason. Vietnam was a China's province in ancient time and even until the 18th century, we're still under China's influence. Even for China, there're many small countries in ancient time and at the end it could united and form a kingdom name China. Ancient Vietnam was a part of that many small countries but it refused to be under China but formed its own country. The closest example could be Taiwan trying to form their own nation or HongKong people before 1997 believed they're Hongkonges as they believed they're neither British nor Chinese.  Or Tibet want to form their own nation but they're still under China and are called Chinese even though they're Tibetan.
To keep HongKong as a part of China, it's the only country in the world that has 1 country 2 systems.


Edited by papen - 30-Oct-2010 at 16:49
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2010 at 21:53
Some points in understanding the relations between China and Vietnam. First, understand the relationship between the King of Vietnam and the Emperor of China. This will help you understand the relationship between China and Vietnam. It was a feudal relationship between a Lord (the Chinese emperor) and a vassal (a subordinate lord who had sworn loyalty to the higher one). Several of China's 'invasions' of Vietnam were in fact Chinese armies responding to a call for assistance from an Emperor who was either in danger of losing his throne, or had already lost it, but that fact was not recognized by China. Second, Vietnam, or Dai Viet (the name of Vietnam was not used until Gia Long's time, and its choice was approved by the Chinese, who objected to nineteenth century Vietnam assuming the name "Nam Viet") only developed into modern Vietnam after the great move South. This was not a "Vietnamese" initiative in the sense that the King's Court had a vision of an expanded Vietnam. Rather, the Nguyen lords needed more territory to better support their armies against the Trinh. The 'settlers' included military garrisons, prisoners, persons who fallen afoul of the Court (such as Catholics), and those seeking to improve their clan and family fortunes in newly opened lands (settlers). It was a slower process than the American expansion West, but quite similar.  Third, Chinese immigrants played a large part in the development of the South under the Nguyen Lords, and in modern Vietnam's economy. Thus, not all "Chinese influence" was from the China per se, but the result of Chinese Ming refugees, and later Ching immigrants, settling in the South. (such as Mac Cu'u). Thus the official Dai Viet government, i.e., the Court, had nothing to do with the movement south. That was the initiative of the Nguyen Lords, who allowed the Cham to continue inhabiting their territories as subjects of vassal states. It was the arrival of Ming refugees in large numbers, and their interaction with their Vietnamese and Khmer neighbors, that began the process of developing Vietnam as a pre-modern nation. I would recommend anyone interested in that history read both Prof. Li Tana's "Nguyen Cochinchina" and Prof. Choi Byung Wook's "Southern Vietnam under the Reign of Minh Mang." both published by Cornell University's South-East Asia studies program (SEAP). I find interesting parallels between the movement South in the 16th through early 19th Centuries, and the events in Vietnam in 1954, when two Vietnamese governments emerged again, as in the late Nguyen-Trinh period. 


Edited by lirelou - 30-Oct-2010 at 22:03
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  Quote Ticonderoga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 11:29
thats wat i want to know?!?!
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2011 at 17:35
Tran Hung Dao appears to have lost interest, or is busy guarding the entrance to the Cho Binh Thanh. But if he reappears, he may appreciate this. Just finished a book on the early history of Vietnam which made some good points that have been alluded to here. In trading emails with the author, now a professor at Cornell, he made two interesting asides:
 
One was that the Trung sisters may have been Khmu speakers. The Khmu have been noted in some posts here, and some are classified as Mon-Khmer.
Second, the modern Vietnamese language as we know it may not have developed until after 1,000 AD (my dating preference). This would agree with his observation that Chu Nom did not even begin to develop until the T'ang period, just prior to Vietnam's first age of independence, which is coincidentially when much of what is today's 'borrowed Chinese culture' was adopted by the Vietnamese. (particularly the legal status of women, which prior to the T'ang dynasty retained much of early Vietnam's matriarchal charateristics).
Third, his book draws a distinction between immigration of peoples, which leave a large genetic mark, and the immigration of cultural elites and their followers. Within European history, Spain's Rodrigo de Bivar (El Cid) provides just such an example. Expelled (desterrado) from Castille by the King, many of his armed vassals, both Christian and Moor, followed him. Early modern Vietnamese history likewise provides many examples with the fall of the Ming dynasty to the Qing barbarian hordes. Mac Cuu was just one example. Professor Taylor notes the numerous Chinese elites and their armed retainers who entered what became Nam Viet and then the Annam protectorate between the Lac lords and the fall of the Tang dynasty. In his view, during periods of dynastic unrest, the very best Chinese came south, resulting in intermarriage between these Chinese and local women, which over the years resulted in what he terms "Han-Viet" and "T'ang-Viet" families who, over several generations, came to identify their interests as local, even while they continued to participate in the Chinese world. During such times, Nam Viet prospered. Once conditions stabalized in 'the North', only the most mediocre, or in some cases, those being punished, were sent to the South. These were the periods of unrest and rebellion in Vietnam. Also of interest, Chinese border states existed down as far as Hue and Danang, an area that would later become Vijaya under the Cham.
So, the impression of the period 100 BC to 1,000 AD that I took away from his book is that proto-Viet and proto-Cham is probably a more correct way to view those peoples. Not sure as to the Khmer. I was surprised to learn that at the time of the Trung sisters, the Vietnamese practiced Levirate, i.e., a widow's right to choose a husband from among her deceased spouse's brothers. The Rhade and Jarai practiced such until at least the mid-20th Century. He also commented on the fact that Trung Trac is the sister most often mentioned, and in some sources, the only one mentioned, which would fit in with the Rhade tribes institution of the Po Lan, i.e., a clan matriarch who owns title to all her clan lands, and who must 'walk the earth' once a year to retain that title. It was our experience that the village chiefs were usually the husbands of powerful Po Lans, and that he made no decisions until she had been consulted. Push that concept back two thousand years, and it is not difficult to envision a Po Lan mounted on an elephant (shades of Ban Don village outside Ban Me Thuot), and going to war.
 
ps, as to the origin of the term 'Nguoi Tau', or boat people. Even during the Nam Viet period, travel between the south of China (like Vietnam, then very much in a developmental stage) was by boat, as overland travel carried a higher risk. So, all Chinese were generally 'boat people' to those who lived in the Hong river delta and it upper reaches.
 


Edited by lirelou - 20-Apr-2011 at 17:43
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2011 at 14:08

Prohibitions against the sale of Vietnamese rice.

In a book entitled: Vietnam; Borderless Histories, Professor Li Tana has a paper entitled: The Mekong Delta and its World of Water Frontier. In it, she makes some interesting observations which relate to the rice trade.
 
"...In these minor ports dotting the water frontier, even Sai Gon was too far away for Ca Mau. The tobacco from Cambodia was cheaper to transport that was that imported from Go Vap near Sai Gon. Likewise, rice transported from the Menam basin of Saiam to Cancao (Ha Thien) cost much less that rice carried from the Mekong Delta."
 
     "This was the context for the rice trade in the Mekong Delta. Although on paper, it was always forbidden to export rice from Cochin China, it ws the single staple product that the Mekong Delta produced and was the main source of cash with which the ordinary people paid for necessities. The answer to this seeming contradiction was simple and straightforward, as Crafurd observes, according to whom the prohibition on rice was "rather nominal than real". He states: "Except in times of apprehended scarcity, [it] is sent out of the country in abundance." "Smuggling" simply means that rice was sold to passing traders or brought to other ports of the region rather then being shipped to central and northern Viet Nam." 
 
So, regarding the development of south Vietnam, locals sold their cash crops to the best markets they could find in the region (in or out nof Vietnam), and they likewise imported whatever goods they needed or desired from those or other ports within the region, without paying too much attention to decrees issued by far away courts. (op. cit., pp. 155-58)  Li Tana goes on to cite the example of the still rebel prince Nguyen Anh, holed up with his armies on Kut Island, on the verge of starvation, when an ill-wind blew a Chinese ship loaded with Thai rice destined for the Ca Mau and Rach Gia markets ashore, thereby providing a source of rice for teh future Emperor Gia Long's troops. Of interest, the Chinese owner of the ship was married to a Vietnamese woman frrom Chanthaburi, where there was obviously a resident Vietnamese trading community.


Edited by lirelou - 27-May-2011 at 14:10
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  Quote benbmt94 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2011 at 00:40
i'm confused. so what group was the Lạc? o-o Tai-Kadaic, Austronesian, or Austro-Asiatic (Mon-Khmer) ??? I read Keith Taylor's Birth of Vietnam and he said it was a mix of Austronesian elite with Austro-Asiatic people. I'm talking about the pre-Nanyue period, mind you!
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