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Vietnam's history

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vietnam's history
    Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 22:41
Hello, I'm Vietnamese, as so far I haven't seen any topic (In this forum) discussed on Vietnam's history, so I create this new one. Anyone who want to talk about Vietnam or ask question, or everything they could think of about Vietnam may post some stuff here.Welcome! Cheers
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  Quote jiankeyps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2008 at 05:09
The Vietnamese's cooking art is named
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2008 at 05:33
There are many threads on Vietnamese history on this forum. You didn't search well enough. Smile
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2008 at 08:49
Here's a tip though; when starting a thread, instead of just going "let's talk about this" and mentioning some general topic (Vietnam, WW2, Roman Empire, whatever) it's better to start with a specific problem. F.ex. how Vietnam has been influenced by Chinese culture, reasons why the Mongol invasion failed or what political leader meant the most for the creation of modern Vietnam. This way you can spark a debate, while "open" threads tend to die out unless someone raises an issue.
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  Quote evilbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2008 at 21:45
Well, yeah, I have a questionEmbarrassed...

it is my perception that the south of vietnam used to be predominantly khmer, and that vietnamese settled there in the last thousand years and eventually gained an overwhelming majority, while they themselves come from the guangxi and guangdong province, which is now taken over by ethnic han chinese (so in essence : both groups moved south)

How much of this is correct?Confused
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2008 at 05:53
 
Vietnam is a SE Asian country,why is this thread in East Asia history section ????
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 15:30
The thread is moved to SE Asian history subforum.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Nov-2008 at 15:31
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 15:48
Originally posted by evilbu

Well, yeah, I have a questionEmbarrassed...

it is my perception that the south of vietnam used to be predominantly khmer, and that vietnamese settled there in the last thousand years and eventually gained an overwhelming majority, while they themselves come from the guangxi and guangdong province, which is now taken over by ethnic han chinese (so in essence : both groups moved south)

How much of this is correct?Confused
 
It's partly correct.
 
Not only South Vietnam but also central Vietnam and a large chunk of Northern Vietnam was inhabitted by Chams - Austonesian people close to Malays who later created a powerful maritime kingdom of Champa.
 
The craddle of the modern Vietnamese people was indeed the areas of Guanxi and Guangdong provinces. Slowly they moved to the South until they proclaimed independence from China in what is not Northern Vietnam around Hanoi in the 10th century AD.
 
For the last 1000 years they have been again moving to the South slowly. They defeated and assimilated Chams, the remnants of whom converted in Islam still can be found in Southern Vietnam.
 
Chams culture as a representative of Indianized cultures of SE Asia was close to Khmer.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2009 at 23:12
The "advance South" started in the 1600s, and culminated in the late 1700s and early 1800s. China recognized (Nguyen) South Vietnam as independent of the (Trinh) North in 1744. Saigon (Prei nokor) wasn't even Vietnamese until 1698, Can Tho was founded in the 1730s when the Southern Mekong Delta's ruler, Mac Cu'u, switched his allegience to the Nguyen. So the actual Vietnamese move south is as recent as much American history.

By the way, Vietnam is culturally East Asian, just as China, Korea, and Japan are. Geographically, SEA makes sense, but Historically and Culturally, it is East Asian. 
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  Quote evilbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2009 at 08:35
Thanks for the interesting replies.
Are there many remnants (demographically, culturally, linguistically, architecturally..) to be found in Guangdong and Guangxi of the Vietnamese presence in the past?
 
I once read that although Khmer/Cambodians and Vietnamese are linguistically related, the former are way more "indianized" culturally, and the latter more "sinicized" (although ironically China was on "Cambodia's side" in the third indochina war)
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2009 at 16:38
Originally posted by evilbu

Thanks for the interesting replies.
Are there many remnants (demographically, culturally, linguistically, architecturally..) to be found in Guangdong and Guangxi of the Vietnamese presence in the past?
 
 
Historically speaking one can say that current inhabitants of Guandong and Guanxi are Sincized descendants of "Prto-Vietnamese." There are of course several ethnic minorities there now that speak languages related to Mon-Khmer group, but not many. The biggest ethnic minority group there is Zhuang and they speak a Tai-Kadai language.
There are of course some local customs which resemble Vietnamese customs. However, the overwhelming bulk of culture and not only the Southern Chinese provinces but in Vietnam itself are genetically Chinese.
 
 
Originally posted by evilbu

I once read that although Khmer/Cambodians and Vietnamese are linguistically related, the former are way more "indianized" culturally, and the latter more "sinicized" (although ironically China was on "Cambodia's side" in the third indochina war)
 
Khmer and Vietnamese cultures like you noted are different and while Vietnamese belong to Sinitic world, Khmer culture relates to the "Indianized cultures of SE Asia."  This is very visible in linguistics as well. Khmer has a huge Sanscrit and Pali influence, while Vietnamese is very Sincicized to the extent that some "advanced" linguists even put it into Sino-Tibetian group. Most of Vietnamese vocabularly is of Chinese origin  it also has tones like Chinese which is absent in Khmer. And also Khmer and Vietnamese are complitely mutually non intelligible. A Vietnamese would be able to understand some of Chinese speech (especially if it is in one of the Southern dialects) but not Khmer speech.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2009 at 17:18
I've always understood the Vietnamese to be a Malayo-Polynesian group that became sinicized through intermarriage, and adopting Chinese culture. The only tribal people left who are related to modern Vietnamese are the Muong, whose territory was in the Black River Highlands, capital Hoa Binh. But I noticed years ago that, generally speaking, that the general physical appearence of Vietnamese (Kinh) undergoes subtle changes as you travel from North to South. I have no doubt that many old families in the Mekong Delta have some Khmer blood, but I tend to doubt that the Vietnamese base genetic stock of two thousand years ago was Mon-Khmer. To me, generally, the Khmer body style and hair differs from both the Vietnamese, and Malayo-Polynesians (Cham, Rhade, Jarai, and Raglai). I know one family from the Delta where the son has some Khmer characteristics (a great-grandmother was Khmer) and the daughter Chinese features, except for large, almond eyes (a great-grandfather was Chinese).


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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2009 at 18:36
Racial group often do not correspond at all with linguistic groups. It's natural that Vietnamese have a lot of from Malayo-polinesian phenotype ( just thing about mixing with Chams) but Vietnamese language is not Malayo-Polinesian by any means.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 02:43
Sarmat, my point exactly. There are many examples in history where a people adopted the language of a dominant culture, but remained a people apart, though often an amalgym of two cultures. Vikings moved into Normandy and became Norman French. The Norman French took over a Saxon kingdom, and became English. The English took over India, were thrown out, and left in their wake the English language as a unifying factor, an English vision of laws, and many other insitutitions which make modern India indian.The Nguyen Lords made Vietnam what it is today, but Minh Mang, apparently feeling some sense of inferiority, adopted the Le Dynasty's view of Vietnam and the Vietnamese.
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 07:58
Originally posted by Sarmat

 
 
 
Historically speaking one can say that current inhabitants of Guandong and Guanxi are Sincized descendants of "Proto-Vietnamese."
 
 
 
 
 
 
There was no " Proto-Vietnamese ' in southern China !
 
The indigenous Bai Yue bloodline is an undisputed genetic component of modern day Han-Chinese in Guandong & Guangxi,however,there have been recorded massive migrations from northern China so today's population is a mixture of northern Han ( of Sinitic origin ) and various indigenous Bai Yue groups ( Austronesian & Austro-Asiatic origins ).
 
 
Quote: " genetic evidence does not support an independent origin of Homo Sapiens in China ".The phylogeny also suggested that it is more likely that ancestors of the populations currently residing in East Asia entered from Southeast Asia." from the abstract, and "Now that we have established that populations in East Asia were subjected to genetic contributions from multiple sources: Southeast Asia, Altaic from northeast Asia, and mid-Asia or Europe. It would be interesting to estimate relative contributions from each source.Unfortunately,the current study involved only mostly minority populations.A study involving populations across the country is necessary to reveal such a picture"
At the conclusion,what I see is that the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " ( not the Han Chinese, mind you).
 
Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not.

I read the other article on PNAS, and quote

"Usually, most Chinese immigrants to the U.S. ( and to other countries, like Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan, etc. ) come from southern China, and this is certainly true of the cell lines from California residents from China born in the mainland, collected by Louise Chen and Alice Lin at Stanford and used in our surveys (2, 7, 8). Han-Chinese living in the south of China mostly came originally from the North, but they did so at very different times, and thus had different times for gene flow from the earlier settlers,that is the minorities"

The statement sort of confirm Han Chinese from south China " mostly came originally from the north ", which substantiate Li Hui theory of one of his 3 streams where in one stream the peoples passed through tibetan plateau to arrive in North China were ancestors of the Han-Chinese and Tibetans, carrying the genetic marker M117.PNAS site states that "Han-Chinese living in the south of China mostly came originally from the north, but they did so at very different times".

Virtually all Han Chinese share the same paternal and maternal lineage except for few southern groups that had Austronesian maternal ancestors.The many migrations ( referenced Tang & Song history chronicles ) into southern China have diluted the bloodlines.
 
The fact is that the Han Chinese majority and ethnic Vietnamese didn't share a common root.Any culture similarity,language similarity and genetic similarity in the south are due to chinese expansion to the south,and cultural diffusion, and mixing with the local people but not by common root. its simple as that.It is a fact that Vietnamese culture shares similarities with Chinese culture is due to Chinese influence like how Chinese influenced Korean and Japanese,not by common root.Another fact that the northern Han-Chinese migrated southward in large numbers and some have mixed with the locals and that's the reason they are genetic related ( same scenario with both Chinese & Japanese or Chinese & Koreans because their ancestors originally from Asia continent which is today's China excluding Russian Far East Territory & outer Mongolia ).

Series of civil warfare, rebellions, famines and barbarian invasions in Northern China led to mass migrations of Chinese people from devastated Northern China to the fertile and peaceful Southern China. An estimated 20 million people migrated from Northern China to Southern China from 800AD – 1250AD, to flee from prosecution and escape from the destitute and war-ridden Northern China.Through these waves of migrations to the south,Middle Chinese language was brought into Southern China.Eventually evolved into several dialects,a major one of these dialects is Cantonese.

Vietnamese is an Austro-Asiatic language,not Austronesian.Thus the language is related to that of the Khmers and Mons.The negrito people of Malaya (Asli people) also speak this language.In this latter case,it is likely they were a mixed race adopting the language of the dominant group). We should also note that the original speakers of Austro-asiatic (and for that matter, Austronesian) are also Mongoloids.The differences in features only indicate the amount of negrito blood in them due to intermarriage. Paleolithic Negrito people (who look like the Australian Aborigines) lived in most of Southeast Asia and South China prior to the big migration of Mongoloids southwards, which displaced these peoples. Other contribution of course also include climate and diet.

 
It is a fact that Vietnamese language has at least 60% of Chinese loanwords due to Chinese cultural influence and dominance,50% of Chinese loanwords in Korean and Japanese languages,again not by common roots.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 02-May-2009 at 11:41
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 15:07
First you said this:
 
Originally posted by pebbles

 
 
There was no " Proto-Vietnamese ' in southern China !
 
 
And then you refuted yourself.
 
Originally posted by pebbles

The indigenous Bai Yue bloodline is an undisputed genetic component of modern day Han-Chinese in Guandong & Guangxi    
 
 
Nice
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:11
 
 
Nope ...  proto Vietnamese only existed in Vietnam not southern China,mind you !
 
 
 
 


Edited by pebbles - 02-May-2009 at 16:24
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  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:19
Originally posted by lirelou

 


By the way, Vietnam is culturally East Asian, just as China, Korea, and Japan are. Geographically, SEA makes sense, but Historically and Culturally, it is East Asian. 
 
 
 
 
Vietnam is also SE Asian culturally & linguistically,native cuisine is similiar to Thai and their language sounds like Thai.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:47
Originally posted by pebbles

 
 
Nope ...  proto Vietnamese only existed in Vietnam not southern China,mind you !
 
 
Proto Vietnamese (if one can use such a term) originate primarily from Souther China from the historical kingdom of Nan Yue
 
 
Historically speaking the largest Northern part of Nan Yue remained under Chinese dominance and was complitely assimilated into China.
 
While the Southern part was able to get independence and only later, very slowly expanded to the South and now it's known as Vietnam.
 
The fact that the ancestors of Vietnamese people lived in the Southern China you proved yourself by giving the links that prove "Bai-yue" genetic element in Southern China.


Edited by Sarmat - 02-May-2009 at 17:10
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:49
Originally posted by pebbles

 
Vietnam is also SE Asian culturally & linguistically,native cuisine is similiar to Thai and their language sounds like Thai.
 
 
 
Vietnamese cuisine is also very similar to Southern Chinese cuisines. And "sounds like" is not an argument at all. For many people Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Burmese etc. would all "sound the same."
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