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Imperatore Dario I
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Topic: How advanced were the Romans and Greeks? Posted: 13-Mar-2005 at 08:18 |
Just saw something on the history channel, it was
talking about how amazingly sophisticated the ancients were. My
question is, exactly how advanced were the Greek and Roman
civilizations? What kind of inventions did they create that we
were forced to reinvent over 2,000 years after their glorious
eras? Like the antikatherya (sp?) mechanism, for example?
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Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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white dragon
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Posted: 13-Mar-2005 at 17:25 |
correct me if im wrong, but
i believe we only recently(10-15 years?) found out how to build the tireme correctly
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Pray as if everything depended upon God and work as if everything depended upon man.
-Francis Cardinal Spellman
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Imperator Invictus
Caliph
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Posted: 13-Mar-2005 at 17:43 |
correct me if im wrong, but
i believe we only recently(10-15 years?) found out how to build the tireme correctly |
We cannot easily reconstruct everything because we dont' know their
method of construction, not because we can't construct it our way. For
example, we can't duplicate the greek fire of ages ago, but we can
construct our own version of it.
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Miller
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Posted: 13-Mar-2005 at 19:54 |
I would be skeptical of anything seen
on the History Channel. They are called history but sometimes what
they put on the air is more fictional and inaccurate
than most other channels. It seems that they partly are motivated by
rating and partly by prejudice and agenda of the managers. I don't
know if they can be sued for false advertising in using the name
History but sometimes I feel they should be.
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Spartakus
Tsar
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 04:50 |
The antikatherya mechanism:
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 04:52 |
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 04:53 |
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 04:55 |
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 09:25 |
A reconstruction of the Antikythera device.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Phallanx
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 10:29 |
We could actually add many inventions to this list, but I find these to have been at least facinating.
THE EFPALINION AQUEDUCT OF SAMOS
Efpalinion excavation (ditch) is a mechanical wonder in the history of
Mechanic Technology. this indicates the high level of scientific knowledge by the Hellene
mechanics of the sixth century b.C. The great ancient Hellene mechanic Efpalinos succeed
in opening a water supply channel (duct) through a mountain in order to supply with water
the capital city of Samos (Pythagorion) .
The water supply channel (duct) consisted of three unequal parts .The first was on the
land travelling 900 m. from the spring , it ended at the bottom of mountain Ambelos where
it connected with the entrance of the channel (tunnel) which was the main construction .
The channel (tunnel) was 1036 m. long and its excavation started simultaneously
from both sides of the mountain . The two working groups met in the
center of the channel and they had only 0,6 m. error !!
!!
Archimedes Burning Mirrors (A primitive form of Lazer?!?!?!)
George Louis LeClerc, Comte de Buffon, in 1747
assembled 168 mirrors 8in. by 10in. adjusted to produce the smallest
image 150 feet away. The array turned out to be a formidable weapon. At
66 feet 40 mirrors ignited a creosoted plank and at 150 feet, 128
mirrors ignited a pine plank instantly.
In another experiment 45
mirrors melted six pounds of tin at 20 feet.
Dr. IoannisSakkas, a Greek engineer, demonstrated in 1973 that the feat
is technically possible. With the help of 50 sailors holding 31
bronze-coated mirrors, he set fire to a wooden boat 160 feet offshore.
A.C. Claus of Loyola University in Chicago, O.N. Stavroudis of the
Optical Sciences Center, University of Arizona and E.A. Phillips after
seeing the experiment succeed they all agreed it is possible.
Here is a pic from the Sakas experiment:
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Imperatore Dario I
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 15:45 |
Originally posted by white dragon
correct me if im wrong, but
i believe we only recently(10-15 years?) found out how to build the tireme correctly |
What's the tireme?
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Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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Qnzkid711
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 15:49 |
Its a ship. I think it was originally invented by the Carthagenians.
Romans copied it after they found one that had crahsed ashore. Since it
was labeled they copied it and were able to use it.
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"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.
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Phallanx
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Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 20:17 |
I think it was originally invented by the Carthagenians.
Romans copied it after they found one that had crahsed ashore. |
Not sure where you got this info, but it's wrong.
As both Thucydides in his "Peloponnesian War 1.13.1" and Pliny the
Elder "Natural History 7.57". It was the Corinthians that first built
the trireme and to be exact it was first built by Aminocles of Magnesia
(approx 650BC).
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conon394
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Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 09:56 |
Thucydides does not really say
Corinth invented the Trireme (Trieres), just
that the Corinth was the first place in Greece to build
them. It is really much more likely that
they were built first at Sidon, at the behalf of
the Persians, who had lots of money to spend on very expensive ships, and an
enemy (Egypt)
that had a very powerful fleet.
Pliny is just citing Thucydides.
Edited by conon394
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Phallanx
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Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 11:32 |
Well, he clearly said:
"It is said that the Corinthians were the first to approach the modern style of naval architecture, and that Corinth was the first place in Hellas where galleys were built; [3] and we have Ameinocles, a Corinthian
shipwright, making four ships for the Samians. Dating from the end of
this war, it is nearly three hundred years ago that Ameinocles went to Samos."
source: perseus.tufts
If we look at Pliny we find:
"according to Thucydides, 104 Aminocles, the Corinthian, first constructed them with three banks of oars;"
(same source)
The way I see it, he does mean invented. Otherwise he would have noted
that he was the first to construct them in Hellas. As he clearly gives
the locations were ships with 4,5,6-10 oars were first built (invented).
He also mentions that :
"the Cop invented the oar, and the Platans gave it its broad blade. 108 Icarus was the person who invented sails, 109 and Ddalus the mast and yards"
If he thought differently I do believe he would have recorded it as he does with the Phoenicians:
"We are indebted to the Phnicians for the first observation of the stars in navigation;"
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conon394
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 16:04 |
There is a counter to Pliny in Clement of Alexandria. He suggests that the trieres was invented at Sidon
(Stromateis 1.16.36). The online translations
I have found all use Carthaginian and I have never found a version, either text
or on line the original Greek , but the two books I have by modern historians both
state he in fact is saying Sidon (and suggest he is following Philostephanos of
Cyrene writing in the 3rd century B.C.). Ill admit the Clements
work is polemical (he is going out of his way to argue everything was not
invented by the Greeks), but Piney is not particularly convincing either (on
this point).
First Pliny is basically just citing Thucydides, not say Ephorus
or Theopompus (in other words he is not adding any new information). Second many
of Plinys inventor citations are Greek mythological figures. The complete list
(at 7.57) is not in fact accurate. It is really a list of where the Greeks
tended to think the origin of things occurred. Thus for example, Pliny is
correct in noting Athens as the
first democracy, but Egypt
is not the first Monarchy. Summer was dead and gone from living memory; for the
Greeks (and Pliny), Egypt
was obviously the oldest civilization, and thus the oldest monarchy.
Third it worth pointing out he is clearly contradicting
Diodorus on the invention of the five (really a 2 or 3 banked galley, with multiple
rowers per oar).
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Phallanx
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Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 08:53 |
Though the origin of the "invention" is still obscure (for some), I
find it interesting that everyone strives to be named the invertors of
something that was considered a "joke" and an impossible feat, not so
many years ago.
The oldest evidence we have, is a fragment of Atiik pottery that
depicts a trireme dated approx. 750BC, we also find Herodotus to
mention an Egyptian Pharaoh Necho (6th cent) to be building triremes on
the Nile. This Pharaoh is known to have hade very close ties to
Corinth, so this is most probably where he got the designs for it.
In anyway, whoever may have first built the trireme, if it was a
Hellinic original or just a copy. It is an undisputible fact that it
met its glory under the hands of the Hellinic crew and through the
Hellinic "myths".
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Yiannis
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Posted: 21-Mar-2005 at 10:46 |
Triremes were first designed by the Phoenicians. The Corinthians however perfected the design by solving the space problem of the 3rd oarsman. That was done by extending the oarsmen space outwards by 50cms. That way they helped stabilize the ship and allowed it to become longer and faster.
These were (mostly) the triremes that defeated the Persian (largelly Phoenician) fleet at Salamis.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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druidebaron.nl
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Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 15:44 |
The steam machine was invented by Heron of Alexandria and they did almost nothing with it. From inventing a steam engine it is still a long way to 19th century industry, trains etc, but it is also an example of how one the side Greek and Roman society were very sophisticated, but on the other side they were also very conservative; very slow in adopting new inventions. You also see this conservatism in, for example, architecture.
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conon394
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Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 20:41 |
druidebaron.nl
I don't really think you can draw that general conclusion.
Conservative compared to whom? The classical world simply never had the
watershed event that was the Black Death. A combination of a massive
reduction in manpower (and thus technological solutions were relatively
cheap) and at the same time, an inability to import manpower from
elsewhere via conquest or slave trade.
You also see this conservatism in, for example, architecture |
How do you mean. Style-wise modern Western civilization still
chooses Greco-Roman forms for public buildings The Greco-Roman
world adopted vaulting, cement, and glass windows almost as soon as
each technology was invented or encountered.
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