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Topic ClosedThe Slavic element in Homer's epics

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Petro Invictus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Slavic element in Homer's epics
    Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 01:02
Originally posted by Leonidas

Petro, your just provoking and not debating your case.


I am doing my best, sir. Big%20smile




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 03:08
If you don’t know ancient Greek do not even try to patronize this language, you just sound ridiculous.

HERE are the complete ancient Greek Homeric texts, with every word as a tag leading to detailed translations/explanations.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1



How would you have known ancient Greek Heliocles, if there wasn't for Katharevousa to bring it home to you? Wink

Thanks for the link. I have been using a link from the same project for reference regarding Homer.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133;query=card%3D%236;layout=;loc=1.130

However, I was referring to the Iliad. I'll check the Odyssey too!

Have you read at least the opening posts, or you were merely summoned to demonstrate your "expertise" in referring to "VALID ACADEMIC SOURCES"?






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 03:17
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Leonidas

Petro, your just provoking and not debating your case.


I am doing my best, sir. Big%20smile


 
Try harder.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 11:50
How would you have known ancient Greek Heliocles, if there wasn't for Katharevousa to bring it home to you? Wink

Kathareuousa is not ancient Greek Petro. It was a hybrid language, a medium between ancient Greek and demotic (modern) Greek.
 
Nothing was "brought to my home" by kathareuousa.

Ancient Greek was taught to me not through kathareuousa but throught the original texts. In school i have been taught ancient Greek though studying grammar and 1 year Odyssey, 1 year Iliad, 1 year Xenophon, 1 year Lysias, all of them from the surviving originals, no kathareuousa there... 

I have also read the testament, a text used mainstream from early christianic years up to now in Greek church. No kathareuousa there friend.

Your argument about me knowing Greek through kathareuousa with that nice smily face is invalid as you can understand.

Ancient Greek literature (and thus language) was present in Roman times, Byzantine times, and Ottoman times (in Greek monastery manuscripts and in Europe). The continuity of the language existence (even though spoken corrupted by the peasants who lived among foreign populations and received no education whatsoever during Ottoman years) is undisputed. The language was never lost to be found again, the manuscripts now resting in institutions all over the world prove it, and nothing more is needed to say.

 
 
 
Thanks for the link. I have been using a link from the same project for reference regarding Homer.

However, I was referring to the Iliad. I'll check the Odyssey too!

 
Ok then since you are familiar with Perseus library, go back to your posts and find me in the homeric text of Perseus the "homericoslavic" words you presented. You were asked by another member beforehand to do that but you ignore it, accidentally i would like to think.. Wink
 

Because if you do not do so this means that you just copy-paste from propagandistic sites and you did not dig into that by yourself. I warn you that words you used are spelled wrong and many other games your beloved theorisists have played... 

And what kind of a "linguist" are you trying to connect two languages (homeric-slavic) while not knowing one of them...?
 
 
 
 
Have you read at least the opening posts, or you were merely summoned to demonstrate your "expertise" in referring to "VALID ACADEMIC SOURCES"?
Yes i have read them and they gave me the giggles. I couldnt have missed that.

I do not demonstrate any expertise of mine. I present the expertise of non-Greek unbiased expert academics in the field, and not some more than clearly biased "maknews" type of referencing.

Is it by lack that 90% of maknews articles are fanatically obsessed anti-Greek?

 
This a history forum not a medium to use for political reasons, by freelance or goverment operators.
It is a disgrace for this history forum and the moderators should keep a certain level of quality when it comes to the approach of history and its methodology.

Or else i can also start spamming too material from crazy Greek nationalistic sites, presenting Greek civilization from 50,000 B.C....., ancient Greeks in Japan..., the similarities of precolombian languages with Greek..., and Greeks coming from Andromeda Galaxy...

And all these... with "evidence" in the quality of those Petros' "homericoslavism" in tons of course...
 
 
 
 
P.S.
 
Small fragment of the "linguist" Petros' deeds... Enjoy...
 
FIRST OF ALL I WANT THE EXACT HOMERIC VERSE WITH THE EXACT WORD (kotule) THAT YOU WROTE!
 
Homeric   -   modern Macedonian    (English)
kotule      -   kotle;                      (cauldron)
 
 
 
Avanti:
 
First of all in bibliography is written as kotylos and not so much as kotulos.
 
Now you can understand why is important to study the texts in Greek script, when transliterated such problems occur. Here is a clear example of a word transliterated with 2 ways
 
There are numerous Greek words for cups/vessels
 
 
Ancient Greek: Kotylos / κότυλος / ΚΟΤΥΛΟΣ
 
Check the whole 11.478 of the "Deipnosophistes"
Its a text about food and drink, where κότυλος and lots of its derivatives are present.
e.g. κοτυλ-ίσκος (small κοτύλος)
 
The word in ancient Greek describes generally a vessel and also a measure.
 
 
O.E. cetil (Mercian), from L. catillus "deep pan or dish for cooking," dim. of catinus "bowl, dish, pot." A general Gmc. borrowing (cf. O.S. ketel, O.Fris. zetel, M.Du. ketel, O.H.G. kezzil, Ger. Kessel). Spelling with a -k- (c.1300) probably is from infl. of O.N. cognate ketill. The smaller sense of "tea-kettle" is 20c. Kettledrum is from 1542.
 
Latin: catillus
Old Norse: ketill
Old English: cietel
Middle English: ketel
Mercian: cetil
Northumbrian: cetel
English: Kettle
Dutch: Ketel
German: Kessel
Croatian: kotlić
Swedish: kittel
 
 
Ts ts ts ts... the Slavic elements in all European languages... what a lingustic breakthrough for Petro... we are all Slavs... such as ancient Macedonians were....
What is this? New age panslavism? What the heck?
 
I think using IE roots, or Greek/Latin loanwords found in European languages in order to prove that Homeric language was Slavic, is at least hilarious if not tragic or pathetic.
 
If you closely examine the "homeroslavic" words that Petro threw all over this schizophrenic thread, it all comes down the same way. No need to add that many of these words are not even found as presented here in Homer's texts.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Heliocles - 19-Jun-2008 at 13:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 12:17
The stupidity presented in this thread vastly surpasses anything I've ever seen on these fora. This has nothing to do with history, rather nationalistic bullshit. I couldn't believe anyone would fall for the nonsense.

---

But let's assume the guy is very very young, and give him some benefit of doubt.

For a start, try to find answers on this question:

1) How come Caesar's father was also named Caesar, and his father before him? *


*)hint; no Macedonian king was ever refered to as "czar" in the ancient times, no more than the Emperor of China used the English word "Emperor" 2000 years ago. If you disagree with that, just produce an ancient manuscript proving the opposite.


Since you obviously didn't know it, purple was the most expensive colour in ancient times. The Phoenicians (or even Minoans) were the ones who discovered it and made a fortune on the process. The colour was rare and expensive, and only the richest could afford it. The Macedonians were not the only to use it, and absolutely not the first.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 12:40
Heliocles, on a minor point I don't think French 'chaudron' and the Spanish/Portugese versions and English 'cauldron' come from that line of descent, but go back to Latin 'calderia' for a cooking pot, and eventually to 'calidus', one of the family of words with the same root that means either 'hot' or 'cold' depending on language.
 
The 'l' and the 't' are opposite ways round in the two roots.
 
I can refer you to the same source you quoted for 'kettle': http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=caldron&searchmode=none
 
Generally of course I agree with you.


Edited by gcle2003 - 19-Jun-2008 at 12:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 13:21

You are right gcle2003. My bad.

http://www.bartelby.com/61/16/C0171600.html

It has to do with temperature probably, as you have already mentioned.

I cant even remember the reason puting cauldron there! Must be going lunatic reading all these homeroslavonic theories!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 14:19
Originally posted by Heliocles

Kathareuousa is not ancient Greek Petro. It was a hybrid language, a medium between ancient Greek and demotic (modern) Greek.
 
Nothing was "brought to my home" by kathareuousa.

Ancient Greek was taught to me not through kathareuousa but throught the original texts. In school i have been taught ancient Greek though studying grammar and 1 year Odyssey, 1 year Iliad, 1 year Xenophon, 1 year Lysias, all of them from the surviving originals, no kathareuousa there... 

I have also read the testament, a text used mainstream from early christianic years up to now in Greek church. No kathareuousa there friend.

Your argument about me knowing Greek through kathareuousa with that nice smily face is invalid as you can understand. 



I am not denying the fact that you have studied all the forms of Greek you have listed above, do not take me wrong. However, it was Katharevousa that approximated the Dimotiki to the ancient Greek, which was practically alien to the masses.

This is what Wikipedia says:

"In later years, Katharevousa was used for official and formal purposes (such as politics, letters, official documents, and newscasting), while Dimotiki (δημοτική), 'demotic' or popular Greek, was the daily language. This created a diglossic situation whereby most of the Greek population was excluded from the public sphere and advancement in education unless they conformed to Katharevousa. In 1976, Dimotiki was made the official language and by the end of the 20th century full Katharevousa in its earlier form had become obsolete. However, many grammatical and syntactical rules that Katharevousa had adopted, and much vocabulary from the Katharevousa strand, have come into contact with Dimotiki during the two centuries of its existence, so that the project's emphasis has made an observable contribution to the language as it is used today.[2] One may suggest that the Modern Greek of today is no longer the Dimotiki of old, but rather set midway between it and the traditional Katharevousa as stressed in the 19th century, with the concurrent and age-old influence of Koine Greek. "

Moreover:

"By 1900, the discussion had become a matter of public interest. Proponents of Katharevousa denounced proponents of Dimotiki as "μαλλιαροί" (hairy, furry), "αγελαίοι" (gregarious, social, vulgar) and "χυδαϊσταί" (speakers of slang, plebeians, vulgarians), while the proponents of Dimotiki called their enemies "γλωσσαμύντορες" (defenders of language, purists), "σκοταδιστές" (more or less: the ones living in spiritual darkness), "αρχαιόπληκτοι" (archaics), "μακαρονισταί" (imitators of archaic languages) or "συντηρητικοί" (conservatives).[5] The educational system was in an alarming state and completely ineffective: The children were completely unable to express themselves in the unfamiliar formal language, which severely harmed their speech acquisition instead of educating them."

These children would have been some of your great-grandparents, am I right?

Ancient Greek literature (and thus language) was present in Roman times, Byzantine times, and Ottoman times (in Greek monastery manuscripts and in Europe). The continuity of the language existence (even though spoken corrupted by the peasants who lived among foreign populations and received no education whatsoever during Ottoman years) is undisputed. The language was never lost to be found again, the manuscripts now resting in institutions all over the world prove it, and nothing more is needed to say.


Now, today you may argue that you can understand all of the forms of Greek spoken since Classical times, up to Byzantium, however in Ottoman times, the majority of the population had lost it, and only Greek monasteries cherished the old speech, as well as scholarly Europe.

This is quite understandable, since the Greek population during Ottoman times, which was merely the leftovers from the Byzantine cosmopolitan society, had lost its linguistic identity to a great extent, due to the lack of coherence in the ethnic identity.

There are accounts in European literature to confirm this state in Greece, prior to the Independence. Take Byron for instance!

"Byron had first visited Greece while still a Cambridge undergraduate and had witnessed the “sad relic” of a great civilization now under the “long, accustomed bondage” of the Ottoman Empire. He had no particular gripe against the Turks. In fact, he rather liked what he had seen on his travels in Asia Minor, which had included his heroic swim across the Dardanelles.

But he was saddened by what he viewed as the Greeks’ passive acceptance of their bondage. With prophetic foresight, Childe Harold stirs the docile Greeks to action. Thirteen years later, in 1821, the Greek Revolt against the Turks began, the very first shots ringing in Byron’s ears as a call to arms. Now in his mid-thirties, he was seduced by the idea of liberating the ancient nation that was the very cradle of the civilization that had nurtured him. He would lead the “scattered children forth;” he would “resume the gallant spirit” of the Spartan warriors of Thermopylae; he would call Greece “from the tomb.” In July 1823, he sailed to Greece to perform the short fifth act of his drama.


It soon became clear to Byron why the Greek Revolt had gotten off to such a pitiful start. The unflattering reports he’d heard about military incompetence and the lack of a coherent nationalist ideology were, alas, well founded. Driven like a proverbial Spartan, Byron worked tirelessly to instill military discipline and to inspire patriotic fervor, both with some degree of success. His status as a National Hero of modern Greece is well earned, and no Greek will brook a bad word said against him."

http://www.richardnathan.com/walk/byron.html

Even Byron was shocked at the realization that Greece was deprived of "true Greeks"at that time and the new modern Greeks had almost nothing to do with the ancient Greeks. That was a disappointment he recorded in his work Child Harold:

"Fair Greece! sad relic of departed worth!
Immortal, though no more, though fallen, great!
Who now shall lead thy scatter' d children forth,
And long-accustom' d bondage uncreate?
Not such thy sons who whilome did await,
In bleak Thermopylae' sepulchral strait -
Oh! who that gallant spirit shall resume,
Leap from Eurotas' banks, and call thee from the tomb?"

Now, some would say, and I heard a lot about this, that Byron was saddened because he had a failed relationship with  Bouboulina, a Greek revolutionary and heroine of the Greek War for Independence.  That is why he supposedly wrote all that he wrote about Greece.

This is a little immature so in order to prevent any misconceptions I am going to explain their relationship in detail, since I have studied Byron to a great extent.

How can we assume that he described a whole nation as "departed worth" due to his failed relationship with a Greek courtesan? As a character he was such a strong romantic that he didn't even dare to think of himself as a depressed loser! He was exiled from England and didn't get depressed. on that at all.

In my research on the matter, besides the fact that I couldn't find anything about Bouboulina and Byron's "Shakespearean" romance, I have to admit that my speculations that she was rather a "non-orthodox" woman, this assumed knowing Byron's devilish character, turned out quite correct:

"She was the unchallenged leader among her eight half-brothers and sisters, having a strong, untamed, almost stubborn character, a dark in coloring and with a regal stature young woman, who showed her courage and decisiveness from an early age."

Moreover her mother had given her a good example of how to deal with men:

"Her mother Skevo, daughter of the Hydriot dignitary, Kokkinis, travailed in the prison being exhausted and sentimentally charged, and gave birth to a girl, which was later baptized Laskarina in Constantinople by the sovereign of Mani, Mourtzinos." (Wikipedia)

Her mother obviously did not weep for her husband too long since she managed to give our heroine a bunch of half-brothers and sisters, and set an example for her daughter!

Byron on the other hand "was the most notorious Romantic poet and satirist. Byron was famous in his lifetime for his love affairs with women and Mediterranean boys."


http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/byron.htm

So, he can't have been in depression after his failed relationship with Bouboulina, instead, he was SADDENED by what he viewed as the Greeks’ PASSIVE acceptance of their bondage. With prophetic foresight, Childe Harold stirs the DOCILE Greeks to action.

This hurt him a lot since he was a Philhellene and brought up with the dreams of ancient Greece, as well as all that it represented to the modern mind such as Byron's.

I have posted the rather long story on Byron, since I believe it puts an extra stress to my point that there was discontinuity, not just linguistic but also ethnic, regarding the coherence of the Greek nation at least in the early 19th century.

So although Greek of say Homer's epics is well understood by scholars of ancient Greek, and to a great extent to a humble Greek student of Homer, it was not the case 150 years ago.

This allows me to assume that the project Katharevousa played a major role in creating this coherent identity of the modern Greek nation, based on a linguistic continuity that was rather artificially imposed.

In this regard, the Slavic words in Homer's works is a plausible hypothesis, taking into account the Dorian Invasions that brought forth the Greek Dark Ages, which caused WRITING to cease for almost 400 years, before the Classical Greece rediscovered the alphabet, mostly from the Phoenicians, and created the culture that we know as Classical Greece, today.

Moreover, there is evidence in the Mycenaean Linear B, of the use of say FOINOS for wine, where in Homer we come across the term, OINOS, that is in use in modern Greek as well, but in a secondary use to the term Krasi!

It is my assumption that the term Oinos was reintroduced to modern Greek via Katharevousa, although it can be traced in Biblical texts too.

Another interesting notion is that Homer's epics were orally transmitted prior to their final editing and recording during the Classical period. Those who recorded it, much after its original composition occurred, must have edited it to suit the requirement of the audiences of Classical, post-Dorian Invasions, Greece. This is where most of the Greek words come from - when in the original, and that can be noticed from the words that remained from Mycenaean times that have curiously survived in modern Macedonian, as well as other Slavic languages, these epics were most probably narrated in a non-greek language, probably a proto-Slavic, as the closest of the Indo-European family of languages that share similar root morphemes.

Another asset to this theory is the style in which Homer's epics were orally transmitted, which has been preserved in the South Slavic oral tradition, know as "guslari" in Montenegro, and Bosnia, and "zheljaci" in Macedonia.

This form of narrative has been observed by many scholars as a unique form of narrative that can be closely related, to everyone's surprise, to Homer's oral narration.

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:W7kLoxrDjFYJ:132.248.101.214/html-docs/acta-poetica/26-1-2/p51.pdf+Homer+guslari+Slavic&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a

One of the strongest arguments in favor of this supposition is the following:

"Oral traditions work like language, only more so!"









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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 14:20
Originally posted by Heliocles

I present the expertise of non-Greek unbiased expert academics in the field, and not some more than clearly biased "maknews" type of referencing.


Which model would that be from: Aryan or Ancient?

This a history forum not a medium to use for political reasons, by freelance or goverment operators.
It is a disgrace for this history forum and the moderators should keep a certain level of quality when it comes to the approach of history and its methodology.


Exactly! And I am presenting here the expertise of non-Greek unbiased expert academics, such as Martin Bernal and the like, who are promoting quite a new approach to history in general. Do we debate or dogmate? What is your standpoint!

It is a disgrace for any forum to prevent pluralism of opinions and consent only to a uniformity of viewpoints, which can only entrap one in the totalitarian concepts of the past, such as racism, antisemitism, fascism...

Do keep that in mind!



 


Edited by Petro Invictus - 19-Jun-2008 at 14:27


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 15:57
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

I have posted the rather long story on Byron

Yes, you have. I hope there is something relevant to the discussion coming up in this post, because there isn't so far.

, since I believe it puts an extra stress to my point that there was discontinuity, not just linguistic but also ethnic, regarding the coherence of the Greek nation at least in the early 19th century.
So although Greek of say Homer's epics is well understood by scholars of ancient Greek, and to a great extent to a humble Greek student of Homer, it was not the case 150 years ago.

This allows me to assume that the project Katharevousa played a major role in creating this coherent identity of the modern Greek nation, based on a linguistic continuity that was rather artificially imposed.
So what?


In this regard, the Slavic words in Homer's works is a plausible hypothesis,
But what you're now posting is irrelevant to that hypothesis.
 
 taking into account the Dorian Invasions that brought forth the Greek Dark Ages, which caused WRITING to cease for almost 400 years, before the Classical Greece rediscovered the alphabet, mostly from the Phoenicians, and created the culture that we know as Classical Greece, today.

Moreover, there is evidence in the Mycenaean Linear B, of the use of say FOINOS for wine, where in Homer we come across the term, OINOS, that is in use in modern Greek as well, but in a secondary use to the term Krasi!

It is my assumption that the term Oinos was reintroduced to modern Greek via Katharevousa, although it can be traced in Biblical texts too.

Another interesting notion is that Homer's epics were orally transmitted prior to their final editing and recording during the Classical period. Those who recorded it, much after its original composition occurred, must have edited it to suit the requirement of the audiences of Classical, post-Dorian Invasions, Greece. This is where most of the Greek words come from - when in the original, and that can be noticed from the words that remained from Mycenaean times that have curiously survived in modern Macedonian, as well as other Slavic languages, these epics were most probably narrated in a non-greek language, probably a proto-Slavic, as the closest of the Indo-European family of languages that share similar root morphemes.
Nothing from ancient Macedonian has 'survived' into modern Macedonian. The two have nothing to do with one another. So far you haven't produced a thing that would contradict the version(s) covered in the article in wikipedia 
none of which have the slightest suggestion that ancient Macedonian was a Slavonic language.
 Another asset to this theory is the style in which Homer's epics were orally transmitted, which has been preserved in the South Slavic oral tradition, know as "guslari" in Montenegro, and Bosnia, and "zheljaci" in Macedonia.

This form of narrative has been observed by many scholars as a unique form of narrative that can be closely related, to everyone's surprise, to Homer's oral narration.

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:W7kLoxrDjFYJ:132.248.101.214/html-docs/acta-poetica/26-1-2/p51.pdf+Homer+guslari+Slavic&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a
Everybody has a 'strong oral tradition' for passing on old stories. Everyone. What do you think 'Homer' wrote on - a laptop?

One of the strongest arguments in favor of this supposition is the following:

"Oral traditions work like language, only more so!"
 
Did you never hear of Beowulf? Of King Arthur? Of Hengist and Horsa? Of Robin Hood? Of  Roland and Oliver? Of the Bible, even?
 
Don't you ever stop and think about what you are saying?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:02

<<Moreover, there is evidence in the Mycenaean Linear B, of the use of say FOINOS for wine, where in Homer we come across the term, OINOS, that is in use in modern Greek as well, but in a secondary use to the term Krasi!>>

Vre Petro, are you going to teach me my language? Seriously now.

How did you came up to the conclussion that we use οίνος as a secondary term for κρασί?

You have heard it? Or you KNOW it?

Thats why i keep stressing the ridicule of you not knowing Greek, while persisting prose us with a dramatic tone about Greek words.

 

In fact take a Slavic (Russian) source... with modern Greek words involving wine - οίνος....

http://www.trilinguis.ru/demotika/dictionary.aspx?xarf=%ce%bf%ce%b9

οιναγορά

οιναποθήκη

οινεμπόριο

οινέμπορος

οινικός

οινοβάρελο

οινοβαρής

οινοβαφής

οινόγαλα

οινοδοχείο

οινοειδής

οινολογία

οινολογικός

οινολόγος

οινομαγειρείο

οινομαγειρείον

οινομάγειρος

οινομανής

οινομανία

οινομετρία

οινομετρικός

οινόμετρο

οινοπαραγωγή

οινοπαραγωγός

οινόπνευμα

οινόπνευμα

οινοποιείο

οινοποίηση

οινοποίησις

οινοποιία

οινοποιός

οινοποσία

οινοπότης

οινοπωλείο

οινοπωλείον

οινοπώλης

οινοπώλις

οινοπώλισσα

οινόφλυξ

οινοφόρος

οινοχόη

οινοχόος

 
 
LOL     LOL     LOL     LOL     LOL

 

Listen mate, let us lose no more of our time going over elementary suff.

Go find yourself a proper modern Greek dictionary (the Oxford one is good) and check the words before you spread idiocy around.

 

Κρασί is used as stand alone word along with οίνος today. Almost alll the synthetic words involving wine use οίνος.

Κρασί is also from ancient Greek κρασις = mix  because ancient Greeks used to drink wine only mixed with water. The considered drinking pure wine as barbaric custom.

The word οίνος started not being used thar much in the christian years. This for a very specific reason.

In orthodox christian mysteries as you know wine (οίνος) represents the blood of Christ and bread (άρτος) the body of Christ.

In the religion-obsessed Byzantine society these two words οίνος and άρτος became a taboo. The people could not use these two words describing the holiest of holy mysteries in their common talks. Τhe words were still in use but for religious purpose mostly. Even the most uneducated granma of Byzantine or Ottoman years would call the wine that she drunk at the church's mysteries οίνος... and the dread άρτος... The word never seized to be used.

That why even today we have two other words (which derive by ancient Greek) for both of them:

wine - οίνος - κρασί

bread - άρτος - ψωμί

Both of them can be used with οίνος and άρτος being a bit more formal. But when it comes to synthetic words only οίνος or άρτος is used and not κρασί or ψωμί.
 

So to put it straight, you simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

 

Foίνος was used by Myceneans, oίνος was used by ancient Greeks, οίνος was used by Byzantines, οίνος by the Greek church, the archons of Ottoman years and the diaspora, οίνος is used today by, modern Greeks.

ΟΙΝΟΣ the same word, the same letters, no some mambo-jambo letter Petro-game.

 

 

<<It is my assumption that the term Oinos was reintroduced to modern Greek via Katharevousa, although it can be traced in Biblical texts too.>>

 Κρασί is the popular term even now as it was since middle ages, before kathareuousa even existed.

Οίνος has not been reintroduced thus, it never siezed to be used by those who knew how to write and read (the minority in Ottoman empire: the priests/monks, the local Greek archons/administrators, Sultan's Greek officials, Greek traders).

You dont know anything about kathareuousa mate, and still you try to patronize it...

Kathareusa chiefly introduced prefixes and subfixes to demotic words so as to sound archaic. In fact it was a failure since even the demotic was more of a proper language, that why it finally prevailed.

E.g.

Ancient Greek                             Kathareuousa Greek                  Modern/Demotic Greek

ιχθείς                                             o-ψάρι-ον                                            Ψάρι

οφθαλμός                                       ο-μάτι-ον                                             Μάτι

 

 

 
P.S.

<<Exactly! And I am presenting here the expertise of non-Greek unbiased expert academics, such as Martin Bernal and the like, who are promoting quite a new approach to history in general. Do we debate or dogmate? What is your standpoint!

It is a disgrace for any forum to prevent pluralism of opinions and consent only to a uniformity of viewpoints, which can only entrap one in the totalitarian concepts of the past, such as racism, antisemitism, fascism...

Do keep that in mind!>>

 


LOL LOL LOL  LOL LOL LOL  Like these? Huh?

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov16.html

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/spevak/trojan_era.htm

 
 
Which self-respected academic had ever published about the Slavic-Homeric language commonalities.?Unhappy
 
 
I cant recall when exactly Martin Bernal and Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer, stated that slavic is more connected with the Homeric than Greek...
Ok, these two had some issues with the Greeks... but who else?    2-3  academics in the last 200 years deviating.
The rest tens of thousands of them, and the most prestigious ones with the most impact on historic knowledge have different opinion though Wink.     Dont you think?
 
 
 
 
 
AGAIN
-which self-respected academic had ever published about the Slavic-Homeric language commonalities.? 
-What exactly was this publication?
-In which journal was published?
-In which comference has been presented?
-What was the critique it has received by the academic community?
 
Reference all that and then we continue talking, until then play with the "maknews" stuff around.


Edited by Heliocles - 19-Jun-2008 at 16:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:08
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The stupidity presented in this thread vastly surpasses anything I've ever seen on these fora. This has nothing to do with history, rather nationalistic bullshit. I couldn't believe anyone would fall for the nonsense.


No need to reply to such and idiocy! However, I must point at the fact that it is your language that has nothing to do with history, it rather reveals the chauvinistic views I strongly believe are the driving force of any comments you make, in regards to official historical accounts that I am presenting here summarized in the Black Athena theory.


But let's assume the guy is very very young, and give him some benefit of doubt.


Who is "us" I beg your pardon? The rhetorics you use are either expressions of schizophrenic feats of yours, standing alone in front of the mirror, or a conspiracy based approach that you must be familiar with, being who you are... 


For a start, try to find answers on this question:

1) How come Caesar's father was also named Caesar, and his father before him? *



I did in one of my previous posts. Go back and read well, before you ridicule yourself to a much worse extent.


*)hint; no Macedonian king was ever refered to as "czar" in the ancient times, no more than the Emperor of China used the English word "Emperor" 2000 years ago. If you disagree with that, just produce an ancient manuscript proving the opposite.


Not quite true, since the oral tradition of Macedonian folklore reveals a certain cultural material where say, the title is mentioned with Czar Karanus, however, I have also posted on this before...

Since you obviously didn't know it, purple was the most expensive colour in ancient times. The Phoenicians (or even Minoans) were the ones who discovered it and made a fortune on the process. The colour was rare and expensive, and only the richest could afford it. The Macedonians were not the only to use it, and absolutely not the first.


Here is a short paragraph to learn more on what you seem to be an expert on:

1. The seafaring Phoenicians of the twelfth century B.C. had a passion for purple. Who would have thought that this purple passion would lead to the world's first true alphabet? The Phoenicians, who lived in what is now Syria, were unpolished seamen with no art, literature, or culture of their own. However, they bravely sailed farther than any other ancient people to trade in ivory, precious metals, and spices. They also marketed their own special purple dye. In fact, they had a worldwide monopoly on purple!

2   Because of the Phoenicians' unique purple potion, one possible meaning for the word Phoenician is "dealer in purple!" Others think it means "blood-red" because their purple dye had a reddish undertone. So how did they make this dye, and what was the big deal about purple? The Phoenicians discovered that crushed shellfish oozed a fabulous wine-colored goop. Cloth soaked in this substance turned shades ranging from deep pink to rich purple. Royalty soon chose purple as their favorite hue, so every king and queen needed purple dye!

So they may have been skilled in merchandising, and made a fortune selling purple colored cloths. Sure you do not suggest that they discovered the color itself?Dead

3     Another name for this superb color was "Tyrian purple" because Tyre was a famous Phoenician city located on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. Everyone called Tyre the "queen of the seas" because it was the center of the Phoenicians' trade empire. Soon they realized that they needed a simpler writing system for their bookkeeping because so many people wanted the dye and their business exploded. They didn't have the patience to write in artistic hieroglyphics, so they invented a simple alphabet in the twelfth century B.C. Tyre was at the height of its influence, and traders carried the Phoenician alphabet to Greece.

As with the color, so with the alphabet, the Phoenicians were skilled merchants, and by no means one could assume that those "unpolished seamen"were able to invent a simple alphabet. I would rather assume that they traded it from someone. But from whom?

Here you can see the triking similarity between the Latin and Phoenician script. It is obvious that the Romans took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Phoenician.

However, there are other striking similarities between the Phoenician script and a much older one. Take a look:

The script in the third column is the Vinca script that is at least 5000 years old. Much older than the Phoenician. The Vinca culture can also be associated to the Mycenaean and Minoan scripts. They bear a striking similarity:

Linear A

Linera B



Now the following is a series of letters or symbols found all across Macedonia, in fact all across the Vinca and Danube cultural regions, from the Aegean coast to the Danube.

They can be easily compared to modern Cyrillic and the similarity is amazing:



This, along with the fact that the Phoenicians were not really keen on cultural development, could mean that they actually imported the alphabet from either the Minoans, or Mycenaeans, or for that matter the ancient Macedonians, even though I doubt the last option since the Macedonians were not seafarers, therefore couldn't have met the Phoenicians, unless via continental routes. All of these belonged to the Vinca culture, though.

After the Dorian or Danaan invasions, the culture of the Mycenae collapsed, giving way to the Greek Dark Ages, when writing ceased in Greece for almost 400 years. In the mean time, the Phoenicians had already adopted their "new" alphabet, and then sold it back to the Dorian Greeks , 400 years after Homer sang his epic about the legendary Mycenaean city of Troy.

When it comes to the color purple on fabrics, let me remind you that the first accounts on Macedonians coming across Phoenicians was with Alexander's conquest:

The downfall of the Phoenicians occurred when Alexander the Great defeated Persia in 333 BC.  Almost all of the Phoenician cities including Sidon, Byblos, and Arwad conceded to Macedonia. Tyre, the only city which didn't forfeit to the Macedonians, held strong until Alexander waged a 7 month siege in 332 BC. After the siege of Tyre, the Phoenician Empire dwindled, and in 64 BC the name of Phoenicia disappeared entirely, becoming a part of the Roman providence of Syria.

Now a question to you Styrbiorn: If Alexander defeated all the makers of purple fabric, who made the color for his purple gown, that he was even burred with?




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:27
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The stupidity presented in this thread vastly surpasses anything I've ever seen on these fora. This has nothing to do with history, rather nationalistic bullshit. I couldn't believe anyone would fall for the nonsense.


No need to reply to such and idiocy! However, I must point at the fact that it is your language that has nothing to do with history, it rather reveals the chauvinistic views I strongly believe are the driving force of any comments you make, in regards to official historical accounts that I am presenting here summarized in the Black Athena theory.


But let's assume the guy is very very young, and give him some benefit of doubt.


Who is "us" I beg your pardon?
The people reading this and trying vainly to get you to say something relevant, sensible, and testable.
 
The rhetorics you use are either expressions of schizophrenic feats of yours, standing alone in front of the mirror, or a conspiracy based approach that you must be familiar with, being who you are... 


For a start, try to find answers on this question:

1) How come Caesar's father was also named Caesar, and his father before him? *



I did in one of my previous posts. Go back and read well, before you ridicule yourself to a much worse extent.
Quote where you did. I certainly saw nothing but it could have been buried in one of your so-lengthy posts.
 
And watch your language.



*)hint; no Macedonian king was ever refered to as "czar" in the ancient times, no more than the Emperor of China used the English word "Emperor" 2000 years ago. If you disagree with that, just produce an ancient manuscript proving the opposite.


Not quite true, since the oral tradition of Macedonian folklore reveals a certain cultural material where say, the title is mentioned with Czar Karanus, however, I have also posted on this before...
You were asked for evidence not some oral tradition. There's a strong oral tradition that Arthur of Britain conquered Rome, but, believe me, he didn't, and there's no reason to suppose your oral traditions are any more valid than the British ones.
 
And, once again - you have NOT dealt with that point before. You were asked for written evidence. You might as well just admit you don't have any.

Since you obviously didn't know it, purple was the most expensive colour in ancient times. The Phoenicians (or even Minoans) were the ones who discovered it and made a fortune on the process. The colour was rare and expensive, and only the richest could afford it. The Macedonians were not the only to use it, and absolutely not the first.


Here is a short paragraph to learn more on what you seem to be an expert on:

1. The seafaring Phoenicians of the twelfth century B.C. had a passion for purple. Who would have thought that this purple passion would lead to the world's first true alphabet? The Phoenicians, who lived in what is now Syria, were unpolished seamen with no art, literature, or culture of their own.
Source please, if this is anything but your own imagination.
 
However, they bravely sailed farther than any other ancient people to trade in ivory, precious metals, and spices. They also marketed their own special purple dye. In fact, they had a worldwide monopoly on purple!
2   Because of the Phoenicians' unique purple potion, one possible meaning for the word Phoenician is "dealer in purple!" Others think it means "blood-red" because their purple dye had a reddish undertone. So how did they make this dye, and what was the big deal about purple? The Phoenicians discovered that crushed shellfish oozed a fabulous wine-colored goop. Cloth soaked in this substance turned shades ranging from deep pink to rich purple. Royalty soon chose purple as their favorite hue, so every king and queen needed purple dye!

So they may have been skilled in merchandising, and made a fortune selling purple colored cloths. Sure you do not suggest that they discovered the color itself?Dead

Well you've just quoted - at unnecessary and pointless length as usual, a source saying they did, so if you can suggest they invented it why can't Styrbiorn?

3     Another name for this superb color was "Tyrian purple" because Tyre was a famous Phoenician city located on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. Everyone called Tyre the "queen of the seas" because it was the center of the Phoenicians' trade empire. Soon they realized that they needed a simpler writing system for their bookkeeping because so many people wanted the dye and their business exploded. They didn't have the patience to write in artistic hieroglyphics, so they invented a simple alphabet in the twelfth century B.C. Tyre was at the height of its influence, and traders carried the Phoenician alphabet to Greece.

Have you been reading a child't guide to the alphabet or something?
As with the color, so with the alphabet, the Phoenicians were skilled merchants, and by no means one could assume that those "unpolished seamen"were able to invent a simple alphabet. I would rather assume that they traded it from someone. But from whom?

Here you can see the triking similarity between the Latin and Phoenician script. It is obvious that the Romans took it from the Greeks, who took it from the Phoenician.

However, there are other striking similarities between the Phoenician script and a much older one. Take a look:

The script in the third column is the Vinca script that is at least 5000 years old. Much older than the Phoenician. The Vinca culture can also be associated to the Mycenaean and Minoan scripts. They bear a striking similarity:

Linear A

Linera B



Now the following is a series of letters or symbols found all across Macedonia, in fact all across the Vinca and Danube cultural regions, from the Aegean coast to the Danube.

They can be easily compared to modern Cyrillic and the similarity is amazing:



This, along with the fact that the Phoenicians were not really keen on cultural development, could mean that they actually imported the alphabet from either the Minoans, or Mycenaeans, or for that matter the ancient Macedonians, even though I doubt the last option since the Macedonians were not seafarers, therefore couldn't have met the Phoenicians, unless via continental routes. All of these belonged to the Vinca culture, though.

After the Dorian or Danaan invasions, the culture of the Mycenae collapsed, giving way to the Greek Dark Ages, when writing ceased in Greece for almost 400 years. In the mean time, the Phoenicians had already adopted their "new" alphabet, and then sold it back to the Dorian Greeks , 400 years after Homer sang his epic about the legendary Mycenaean city of Troy.
What has all that got to do with anything? It backs up Styrbiorn's charitable 'let's assume he's young' when you reproduce all this simple stuff at such length with an air of displaying something new. The history of the alphabet is pretty well established.


When it comes to the color purple on fabrics, let me remind you that the first accounts on Macedonians coming across Phoenicians was with Alexander's conquest:

The downfall of the Phoenicians occurred when Alexander the Great defeated Persia in 333 BC.  Almost all of the Phoenician cities including Sidon, Byblos, and Arwad conceded to Macedonia. Tyre, the only city which didn't forfeit to the Macedonians, held strong until Alexander waged a 7 month siege in 332 BC. After the siege of Tyre, the Phoenician Empire dwindled, and in 64 BC the name of Phoenicia disappeared entirely, becoming a part of the Roman providence of Syria.

Now a question to you Styrbiorn: If Alexander defeated all the makers of purple fabric, who made the color for his purple gown, that he was even burred with?
 
Of all the daft questions in all the world how did you come up with that one? For starters, defeating a people doesn't mean exterminating them, especially under Alexander, though he did kill a couple of thousand apparently. He left the kings in place though.
 
Anyway the purple makers went on working as they would do long after the Phoencicians had disappeared as an ethinic group.


Edited by gcle2003 - 19-Jun-2008 at 16:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:30

<<They can be easily compared to modern Cyrillic and the similarity is amazing:>>

But Cyrillic script is a byzantine gift to the slavs, a corrupted Greek alphabet that is. This is known to everyone, it is not my conspiracy theory. Its name says it, Cyrillic script.

For godshake... what is the oldest script found classified as Slavic...? And what is the oldest Greek one? Unhappy

What if in that matsedonska table last line, i remove the Cyrillic script characters and put the Greek ones along with extinct ancient Greek characters such as F, C etc. ?

You see the irony?    LOL     LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:53
Originally posted by Heliocles

<<Moreover, there is evidence in the Mycenaean Linear B, of the use of say FOINOS for wine, where in Homer we come across the term, OINOS, that is in use in modern Greek as well, but in a secondary use to the term Krasi!>>

Vre Petro, are you going to teach me my language? Seriously now.

How did you came up to the conclussion that we use οίνος as a secondary term for κρασί?

You have heard it? Or you KNOW it?



Both actually!

οίνος to you may mean wine, that is for sure. The question is what it meant to the post-Turkish population of Greece, prior to the intervention of Katharevousa?

By secondary use I mean the same that I mean with the use of οδός in relation to δρόμος.

IN modern Greek the term οδός means "street", while "δρόμος" means "a road".

Where in most Indo-European languages including the one that was used in the originals of Homer, prior to its written record in Classical times, the root morpheme οδό, stems from the same root morpheme as in Slavic ODI, or in proto-Germanic EODE, meaning "TO GO".

Now, there is a significant difference between TO GO and a STREET, don't you think? Both functional and semantic. Interestingly, the root morpheme ODI has been preserved with the same meaning in modern Macedonian, meaning TO GO, which when used in a verb pattern such as the following: ODI SI (to go away), it sounds very much similar to ODYSSEY, that signifies a journey, or to go on a journey.

Now, this is the etymological difference that derives from the contrastive analysis of several languages, not necessarily speaking them in modern or ancient form. Contrastive analysis is a branch in linguistics and it can be applied in multi-linguistic studies.

Κρασί is used as stand alone word along with οίνος today. Almost alll the synthetic words involving wine use οίνος.



Synthesizing was the process applied in Katharevousa, mate. While the language of the people mostly consisted of simple sentences, Katharevousa often applied ancient Greek Syntax to form sentences which would appear as educated speech, that is, long and complex.

The Greek language is characterized by special preciseness, expressiveness and flexibility but also by a special ability of synthesis and productiveness which allows it to adopt and develop creatively depending on the needs of the speaker or the writer.

Κρασί is also from ancient Greek κρασις = mix  because ancient Greeks used to drink wine only mixed with water. The considered drinking pure wine as barbaric custom.


That is true!Κρασί  therefore is the Greek term, while οίνος was a much older form used in Homer's epics for pure wine, as the Trojans drank it, which would be purely barbaric to you, wouldn't it?Cheers
"But in Book XXIV we find Achilles has at last lost his angered thoughts. Priam comes to Achilles' tent to ask for the body of his son returned and not given as planned to the dogs to eat. A quiet scene between Achilles and Prim ensues, with ritual breaking of bread and wine between the two as sign of peace, and return of the body in sadness."

http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/trojan.war.html

In Macedonia, we still have this custom of breaking bread and pouring wine on it, and we do not mix the wine with watter. Do you Heliocles?
  

The word οίνος started not being used thar much in the christian years. This for a very specific reason.



WRONG! The word οίνος was in use during the Christian years as well, although with a dual meaning:

"It is widely believed that both in secular and Biblical Greek the word oinos, from which derive both the Latin vinum and the English wine, meant exclusively fermented grape juice. For example, in his book The Christian and Alcoholic Beverages, Kenneth L. Gentry states: "Classical Greek—the historical forerunner of the New Testament (koine) Greek—employs the term as a fermented beverage. The Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon of classical Greek defines oinos as ‘the fermented juice of the grape.’ Interestingly, classical Greek apparently used oinos as a functional equivalent for ‘fermented juice,’ as Liddell and Scott note . . ."15 Gentry goes on quoting New Testament lexicographers to show that "no major New Testament lexicon disputes the fermented character of oinos."16 After examining some New Testament passages, Gentry concludes: "The case is clear: oinos is an alcoholic beverage. Yet nowhere is wine per se forbidden."17

In the light of such a categorical claim, it is important to ascertain if indeed it is true that in classical Greek oinos meant only fermented grape juice. If this claim can be shown to be untrue—by submitting literary examples where oinos refers also to unfermented grape juice—then it is certainly possible that the same dual meaning of oinos is present also in the New Testament and in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, known as the Septuagint."

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/2.html

Need I say any more? Approve

Oh yes!

Vre Petro, are you going to teach me my language?


Bre Heliocles, I sure need to teach you the etymology of your own language. Which is an interdisciplinary approach in linguistics, something you wouldn't know since you really only on speaking your modern Greek. Well, speaking a language and analyzing its etymology are two different concepts, don't you think? My grandma speaks Macedonian but if you ask her to name a verb, she would simply stare at you numb. LOL

Thats why i keep stressing the ridicule of you not knowing Greek, while persisting prose us with a dramatic tone about Greek words.


You better mind not ridiculing yourself here. There are people reading this thread are you aware of it! A friendly advice: Do check the information before you indulge into criticism that can only discredit you both personally and professionally, whatever you might be in both cases.

Go find yourself a proper modern Greek dictionary (the Oxford one is good) and check the words before you spread idiocy around.


I think this applies to you, with the difference that you need to find a proper etymological dictionary of your own language, to know where the words you are so fluently using come from.

Here, this could be of help:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Greek

The idiocy issue is quite obvious! Need I say more? Clap









Edited by Petro Invictus - 19-Jun-2008 at 16:54


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:56
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The stupidity presented in this thread vastly surpasses anything I've ever seen on these fora. This has nothing to do with history, rather nationalistic bullshit. I couldn't believe anyone would fall for the nonsense.


No need to reply to such and idiocy! However, I must point at the fact that it is your language that has nothing to do with history, it rather reveals the chauvinistic views I strongly believe are the driving force of any comments you make, in regards to official historical accounts that I am presenting here summarized in the Black Athena theory.


But let's assume the guy is very very young, and give him some benefit of doubt.


Who is "us" I beg your pardon?
The people reading this and trying vainly to get you to say something relevant, sensible, and testable.


WOW! I wasn't aware I was talking to a spokesman! Sorry for that. Which representative body are you from, the Greek?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 17:16
Oh Petro pleeeeze...your last post...wtf??
Anyone of us has the right to speak for his forum mates if they obviously are on the same side. Neither of us speaks on behalf of any formal group or organisation - I'm not really sure about you.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 19-Jun-2008 at 17:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 17:33
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

WOW! I wasn't aware I was talking to a spokesman! Sorry for that. Which representative body are you from, the Greek?
 
SHHHHHHHHHHHH!  Everyone, be quiet!  We have managed to keep the all-encompassing Great Greek Conspiracy from being revealed thus far.  I think poor Petro is starting to catch on to our designs of world domination...
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 17:42
He's a risk. He shall be vanished, Don Emperor.Cheers

Edited by Slayertplsko - 19-Jun-2008 at 17:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 17:57
Damn guys!  I told you not to expose me like that. When I gave you the cash, i told you not to say anything. 


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