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Topic ClosedThe Slavic element in Homer's epics

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Slavic element in Homer's epics
    Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:13

"Hateful to me as the gates of Hades is that man who hides one thing in his heart and speaks another."

 

Homer, The Iliad

Greek epic poet (800 BC - 700 BC)

 

"Homer (ancient Greek: μηρος, Homēros) is an ancient Greek epic poet, traditionally said to be the author of the epic poems the Iliad and the Odyssey. The ancient Greeks generally believed that Homer was a historical individual, but some modern scholars are skeptical: no reliable biographical information has been handed down from classical antiquity.

 

According to Martin West, "Homer" is "not the name of a historical poet, but a fictitious or constructed name."[1] The poems are now widely regarded as the culmination of a long tradition of orally composed poetry, but the way in which they reached their final written form, and the role of an individual poet, or poets, in this process is disputed."

 

"The Homeric Question is the doubts and consequent debates over the identity of Homer, the authorship of the Iliad and the Odyssey and their historicity. These debates have roots in classical antiquity and the scholarship of the Hellenistic period, but reached a floruit among Homeric scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries. The main subtopics of the Homeric Question are:

 

* "Who is Homer?"[1]

* "multiple or single authorship?"[2]

* "By whom, when, where, and under what circumstances were the poems composed?"[3]

 

To these questions the possibility of archaeological answers have added a few more:

 

* "How reliable is the tradition embodied in the Homeric poems?"[4]

* "How old are the oldest elements in Homeric poetry which can be dated with certainty?"

 

Now if we take all of this into consideration and observe Homer from the point of view of the oral tradition, which was handed down from antiquity to classical times when it was first recorded, we may say that the final product was a work of many authors who have retold the epic poem over and over again, over the centuries, adding to it words from various languages!

 

Take a look at the following study:

 

"More evidence that gives credence to the existence of an ancient prehistoric Macedonian civilization comes to us from ancient literature. One such source that greatly influenced our impression of the ancients and inspired Alexander the Great to seek adventure was Homer’s epic poems. About five hundred years after the Trojan Wars, Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. Homer’s work captivated his audience with events that, according to Tashko Belchev, began and ended in Macedonia. Homer was born in the 8th century B.C. and created true literary masterpieces that are enjoyed as much today, as they were in the days of Alexander the Great. Originally, Homer’s stories were folktales told and retold for millenniums until they were immortalized in print in the 6th century B.C."





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:14

"Most Classicists would agree that, whether there was ever such a composer as "Homer" or not, the Homeric poems are the product of an oral tradition, a generations-old technique that was the collective inheritance of many singer-poets (aoidoi). An analysis of the structure and vocabulary of the Iliad and Odyssey shows that the poems consist of regular, repeating phrases; even entire verses repeat. Could the Iliad and Odyssey have been products of Oral-Formulaic Composition, composed on the spot by the poet using a collection of memorized traditional verses and phases? Milman Parry and Albert Lord pointed out that such elaborate oral tradition, foreign to today's literate cultures, is typical of epic poetry in an exclusively oral culture. The crucial words are "oral" and "traditional." Parry started with "traditional." The repetitive chunks of language, he said, were inherited by the singer-poet from his predecessors, and they were useful to the poet in composition. He called these chunks of repetitive language "formulas."[6]

Scholars generally agree that the Iliad and Odyssey underwent a process of standardization and refinement out of older material beginning in the 8th century BC. This process, often referred to as the "million little pieces" design, seems to acknowledge the spirit of the oral tradition. As Albert B. Lord notes in his magnum opus, The Singer of Tales, poets within an oral tradition, like Homer, create and modify their tales whilst they perform them. Thus, Homer may have “borrowed” from other bards, but he certainly made the piece his own when he performed.[7]"

So over the ages, as Homer's epics were retold by many a poets, the language of the original author of the epics of Iliad and Odyssey must have been influenced by all those who have participated in the process of poetry singing! At that time it was customary for those who retold myths and legends in a form of poetry to prove their expertise by adding up to the contents of the original poem they learned fro their predecessors! That is how we get folklore today! A conglomerate of authorships!

Moreover, Homeric tradition of poetry reciting has survived in the Slavic cultures of today such as the Montenegrin "Guslari" or Macedonian "Mourners", who at funerals retell an old poem presenting the life of the deceased using the same old outline, but indenting the name and events from the deceased life! We call it "Zheljanje" - "Жељање"!

Take a look at this:

http://132.248.101.214/html-docs/acta-poetica/26-1-2/p51.pdf

South Slavic oral epic has long played a significant and controversial role in Homeric studies. Milman Parry’s epochal studies of the traditional nature of Homeric verse in the 1920’s led him to consider the analogy of living oral epic from the former Yugoslavia to explain what he contended was also, and necessarily, an oral tradition in ancient Greece. To ground the analogy in firsthand observation, Parry and Lord then traveled
to what is present-day Bosnia to collect and record performances by twentieth-century Balkan bards, seeking to discover evidence of what they had theorized by conducting a series of experiments in the living laboratory of the South Slavic “guslari”.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:15

Homeric - modern Macedonian (English)

 

paimiti(s) - pamti; (to remember)

 

veido, veiden - vide;(to see)

 

ischare - izgore, skara;(to burn, scorch)

 

idri - itar;(cunning, clever)

 

kotule - kotle;(cauldron)

 

okkos - oko; (eye)

 

steno - stenka;(yell)

 

pliscios - seli, preseli; (move out)

 

oditis - odi od odenje.(go, walk)

 

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov16.html

 

There are a great many examples like this in the 1800 dictionary compiled by the German linguist Ludwig Franz Passoff on the basis of the most ancient extant manuscripts of Homer’s Iliad. The English edition was prepared by Henry George (New York, 1850).

 

Not knowing the Macedonian language, Passoff concentrated on the most contrasting preserved words, unknown in Greek and Latin with the Czech and Slovak languages of that time. So these words were identified, in fact, as Slavic words. Hence, in my opinion the golden rule for analyzing a language is the aforementioned Functional Etymology. Since the functional relations of words are the fundamental building blocks of word forms, I name this rule the ‘GOLDEN RULE OF FUNCTIONAL ETYMOLOGY.’

 

The very meaning of Odissy is "to go" in Macedonian, or "a journey" as it meant to Homer.

 

There are other words like:

 

daver, dever (brother in law);

 

When a young woman marries, the brother of her husband (usually the youngest) becomes a ‘dever’. This is an ancient tradition done to ensure that the young male is entrusted with the care of the family in case the husband dies or is killed.

 

In such circumstances the youngest brother becomes the new husband and takes over the family. This was necessary to protect the children and keep accrued wealth and property within the same family. The meaning of the word in Macedonian, according to functional etymology could be extracted as follows: vera-verba-doverba-doveri-dever ‘to be entrusted’. This word belongs to a large cluster of Macedonian words containing the root (-verba-).

 

In ancient Macedonian (1000 BC), according to Homer (p.305 L.L.) there is da-DAVER; dao(s), where the digama stands for/v/ and the word means ‘brother in law’. In the word daver-daer we note the missing consonant /v/ in inter vocalic position. This indicates that the rule of the speech economy has been in force for a long time in the language. Dropping consonants has been a rule quite often occurring in Macedonian as in the examples: to private >to praoite; covekot ojde > coekon ojde, etc. Yet in Greek ‘brother in law’ ginaika delfos ‘ginaika delfoos’, could obviously not be related to the Homeric daver-davero(s).”

 

( Odisej K. Belchevski, Pages 29, 30, 31 and 32, Number 503, III 1995, Makedonija magazine).

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:17

Let me give you another set of words:

 

Homer's - modern Macedonian - Greek - English

______________________________________

esthio - jade/jestivo - mintros - to eat

bia,bie - bie,ubie - sfodros,ormitikos - to beat by force

dolicho - dolgo - makros - long

foinos - vino - krasi - wine

mortos - mrtov - nekros - dead

pricis - pretci - kovo - ancestors

______________________________________

 

The most intriguing of all the proto Slavic words found in Homer's works are the words related to family names! These have survived in its purest form in the modern Macedonian, probably because family ties stay most intact from civilizational influences from outside! In other words, even though Macedonia was conquered and influenced by many cultures, which might have caused changes in the language used by the indigenous population, it couldn't reach the innermost circles of family ties, where the most sacred rituals were preserved, and the most sacred titles remained:

 

Homer: DAVER - Macedonian: DEVER - English: brother-in-law

Homer: SVEKURO - Macedonian: SVEKOR - English: father-in-law

Homer: SVEKURA - Macedonian: SVEKRVA - English: mother-in-law

Homer: GOIOVA - Macedonian: ZOLVA - English: sister-in-law

Homer: EITERI,EITERVI - Macedonian: JETRVA - English: husband's sister

Homer: INIS,SINU- Macedonian: SIN - English: son

Homer: SNUKO,SNUSO - Macedonian: SNAJKA - English: daughter-in-law

Homer: TETA,TETE - Macedonian: TETA,TETKA - English: aunt

Homer: TATE - Macedonian: TATE,TATKO - English: father

Homer: MALA - Macedonian: MAJKA - English: mother

Homer: VESTIA,EVESTI - Macedonian: NEVESTA - English: bride

Homer: DORA,DARA - Macedonian: DAR, DARUVA - English: dowry

 

Just to compare with modern day Greek, the word DEVER meaning brother-in-law, can be found in the form: κουνίαδος, γαμπρός (kouniados, gampros) which has nothing to do with DOVER as given in Homer's language!

 

While daughter-in-law = νύφη nyfi in modern Greek, nothing to do with SNUKO or SNAJKA again!!!

 

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

 

Read this and see for yourself:

 

http://www.unix.gr/Macedonia/protoslav.html

 

Now, if we can find some words or even phrases like the "family relations" I posted above in Homer's final product, that have survived in modern Slavic languages, then we may say that one of the earliest languages used in the Illiad was a form of proto-Slavic language!

 

Later on as it was transmitted orally by other people who used other languages, Homer's epic might have suffered a drastic change, to reach its final Greek form! Since the Slavic words have survived in the final product than it is a BIG question how they got there?!?!

 

Here is another point of view:

 

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/spevak/trojan_era.htm

 

"We cannot draw conclusions from studying the Achaeans and Trojan cultures alone, we need archeological evidence to corroborate our theories. Based on cultural evidence alone, we can equally assume the Trojans were a Slavic people. According to historian Alexander Donski, if one reads the description of the customs practiced by Trojans as per Homer’s Iliad, without knowing who the Trojans were, one would get the impression that they were the modern Balkan Slavic peoples.

 

On a side note, many contemporary scholars today believe that the ancient Pelasgi, the inhabitants of the Greek Peninsula, before the classical Greeks, were proto-Slavic. Other ancient Balkan peoples such as the Thracians, Paeonians, Dardanians, Veneti, Bryges, Illyrians, Minoans and people from Asia Minor such as the Lydians, Phrygians, Mysians and even Scythians and Sarmatians (Amazons) are also believed to be proto-Slavic speaking people. Several factors have led scholars this conclusion, art, customs, ancient relics with inscriptions of written languages, etc. Scholars Vasil Ilyov, Sergei V. Rjabchikov, Prof. V. A. Chudinov, Matej Bor, Anthony Ambrozic and others have deciphered many ancient scripts from Phrygian, Venetic, Etruscan, Linear A, ancient Macedonian, Vincha, ancient Russian and other sources with the use of contemporary Slavic languages. In fact a number of so-called undecipherable scripts have now been deciphered and translated by using the Slavic languages, something never seriously done before.

 

Why didn’t anyone think of using Slavic, the vast family of languages of one of the largest nations on Earth? I believe because of political reasons: communism and all the propaganda surrounding it, not to mention the isolation the Slavic states suffered.

 

What is also interesting is that contemporary scholar Odisej Belchevsky and others are now studying the language in which Homer wrote the Iliad & Odyssey and are finding that it was written in a proto-Slavic language, closely related to modern Macedonian dialects."

 

And yet another one:

 

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/spevak/trojan_era.htm

 

"South Slavic epic offers classicists an opportunity to do what we cannot do with archaic Greek epic: attend an actual performance by an oral epic singer. In a few minutes, thanks to the generosity of the Milman Parry Collection at Harvard University and its curator, Stephen Mitchell, we will be doing just that--listening to the beginning of an epic song performed by the South Slavic guslar Salih Ugljanin, and then both watching and listening to the 'greatest of singers' from that same tradition, Avdo Medjedovic. Perhaps only appropriately, then, I will leave the last word to the guslari."

 

Then if we take all of this into consideration and suggest that the oral tradition of "guslari", as well as the style of epic poetry has remained in the South Slavic languages until modern times, just as Homer did it in antiquity, and if we add the poem written by Grigor Prlichev, the Macedonian writer who was born in 1830 and died in 1893 in Ohrid; (In Athens in 1860, he won the highest prize for literature - The Laurel Wreath, for his epic poem "The Sirdar", and was praised as the Second Homer. The story is based on old Macedonian folk tales which honored Kuzman - the Sirdar, as the leader of patriotic combat group and brave guardian of Christian people against the Albanian gangs); then, we might conclude that the modern day Macedonians are direct descendants of Homer and the culture he represented, or better say the culture that existed before the Dorian tribes invaded the region and took it over!!!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:23
This is an extract from Homer's Iliad, Book 1 (1.206):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134;query=card%3D%237;layout=;loc=1.172

In English:

"But the son of Peleus again addressed with violent words the son of Atreus, and in no way ceased from his wrath: HEAVY WITH WINE, with the face of a dog but the heart of a deer, [225] never have you had courage to arm for battle along with your people, or go forth to an ambush with the chiefs of the Achaeans."

In Homeric (transcribed in Latin script):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133&layout=&loc=1.206

"Pêleïdês d' exautis* atartêrois* epeessin*
Atreïdên proseeipe, kai ou pô lêge choloio:

OINOBARES*, kunos* ommat' echôn*, kradiên* d' elaphoio*,
oute pot' es polemon** hama laôi thôrêchthênai*
oute lochon d' ienai sun aristêessin* Achaiôn
tetlêkas** thumôi: to de toi* kêr eidetai einai.
ê polu lôïon esti kata straton eurun Achaiôn."

_____________________________________________________

As one can clearly see, the term OINOBARES corresponds with HEAVY WITH WINE!

OINOS of FOINOS (as also attested with the Liner B script from the Mycenaean) was a term used in Homer's works for WINE. The term in use in Macedonian, as well as in all Slavic languages, is VINO.

This allows us to pose the following equation:

FOINOS=OINOS=VINO

In modern Greek, the term used for the sacred drink of the Macedonians is, KRASI (κρασί).

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

Now, one would probably argue, on the Greek side, that the term OINOS or FOINOS was an ancient Greek term that later changed into KRASI.

http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/history.htm

"Wine was always diluted with water before drinking in a vase called "kratiras," derived from the Greek word krasis, meaning the mixture of wine and water. The word Krasi is now currently used in the Greek language as the term for wine."

Do not misinterpret it with the notion that the term OINOS does not exist in modern Greek. IT does indeed, but its etymology shows that it was somehow misplaced in the Dimotiki spoken by the masses in post-Turkish times, at the time of the Independence for Greece, and was probably reintroduced into modern Greek via Katharevousa.

My question though, is how did all Slavic languages then receive the term VINO, where from, and how come they managed to preserve the term, while only the Greeks, who apparently created it, departed from it. Why?





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:29

In addition:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=1;t=001941

"My hypotesis for the etymology of PHORKYS would most likely from a Mycenaean or preclassical word, *FORKYS (not yet documented), "a large kind of tunny or sea-monster, a big-crab, or any sea-monster". The letter Digamma, or F, disappeared into the Greek classic, for example, FOINOS (documented in Linear B and other ancient dialects) after, in the Greek Classic is Oinos, 'wine'. "

Posted by Georgeos Díaz-Montexano (a hispano-american investigator on the location of Atlantis).

This is yet another confirmation that FOINOS meant WINE in Homer's Iliad which coincides with the Liner B! And it translates into VINO in Macedonian.

Yet it is KRASI in modern Greek!


Liner B, although decoded by "Michael Ventris, an architect who actually liked linguistics and epigraphy more than architecture, and John Chadwick, who provided insight into the early history of the Greek language", it was a system of writing which "was apparently designed for a non-Greek language, as it did not fit the sounds of Greek very well. In fact, it is likely that Linear A was used to write the pre-Greek language of Crete, and the incoming Greeks adopted this writing system for their own use, but without changing how the system fundamentally works. In doing so, they developed "spelling conventions" to represent sound patterns found in Greek but not in the syllabary."

http://www.ancientscripts.com/linearb.html

So if Linear B was a writing syllabic system originally designed for a non-Greek language, where the term FOINOS is first recorded, before entering the Homeric epics, and thus reaching the Doric dialects, of post-Tojan era, and if the term is still in use by all the Slavic languages, then we might assume that FOINOS, VINO is of Slavic origin.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:32

As in the case with OINOS, which derives from FOINOS ,which can be easily connected to VINO (F-V being a phonemic pair which is has been lost in OINOS), similar to this there are words such as say, EIDON or IDEI which means TO SEE or TO BEHOLD, in Homer's work that resemble VIDI, or VIDEN in modern day Macedonian which means exactly the same, "to see, to behold"!

So EIDON, EIDEI, IDEI = VIDEN, VIDEJ, VIDE = TO SEE, TO BEHOLD

In modern Greek however the term for TO SEE or TO BEHOLD is:

behold = βλέπω, αντικρύζω, παρατηρώ (blepo, antikryzo, paratiro)

Here is an extract from Homer's Iliad transcribed in Latin script:

"kai** min phônêsas** epea pteroenta* prosêuda:
tipt'* aut' aigiochoio Dios tekos* eilêlouthas**;
ê hina hubrin IDEI** Agamemnonos Atreïdao;
all' ek* toi ereô*, to de kai teleesthai* oïô: 205
hêis* huperopliêisi* tach' an* pote thumon olessêi."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133;query=card%3D%236;layout=;loc=1.130


Translated in English:

"Then he addressed her with winged words, and said: Why now, daughter of aegis-bearing Zeus, have you come? Is it so that you might SEE the arrogance of Agamemnon, son of Atreus? One thing I will tell you, and I think this will be brought to pass: through his own excessive pride shall he presently lose his life."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134;query=card%3D%236;layout=;loc=1.130

Therefore, if we take into consideration the latest discoveries that point at the fact that there were Slavic languages in the Balkans prior to the supposed Slavic migrations, which is the subject matter of Venetology and many other scientific branches, and if we take into consideration the fact that oral tradition has survived, in very much similar form to the Homeric, in the culture of the South Slavic people, then we might assume that Homer, or better say the original singer of the epics, must have used a language that was of proto-Slavic origin!

This language has been altered due to the influence of other languages mostly the Doric and Ionic dialects, who cam later after Homer's time, and new words entered the epic, however, some of the words from the first languages, that you so well assume might have been the one spoken in Mycenae might be of proto-Slavic substratum!

To this we add the discovery of Slavic language in the Demotic text of the Rosetta stone and that makes the story complete!

Homer was of Slavic speaking group however created a poem that was orally transmitted through generations, until it reached the Athenian Greeks who recorded it as they received it from those before them with vocabulary from various dialects or languages, however, preserved some of the words that were used in the original ages before!

The fact that VIDI (Macedonian) corresponds with IDEO (Homer) and not with modern Greek βλέπω (blepo), makes us all ask the question Who was Homer? What language did he speak? Was he maybe a Slavic bard or "guslar"! Since the "guslars" still exist and they still recite epic poetry, in a similar manner as done in Homer's time, and transmit it orally from generation to generation in the Slavic culture!






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:33

-Another interesting asset to the theory of the Slavic character of Homer’s epics is the following example:

In Modern Greek the past tense of VLEPO is είδα (eída)!!! While in Homer's it is not listed as past tense but INFINITIVE! TO SEE means EIDON in Homer's Iliad, TO SEE is VLEPO in Modern Greek!

Therefore, there must have been a transformation that occurred over the ages! I am not saying that the form EIDON was lost in modern Greek, I am merely suggesting its similarity to VIDEN, VIDE, VIDOV, Slavic words, that exist in all Slavic languages with the same root, and can be traced as far as Sanskrit in VEDI, which means LIGHT or KNOWLEDGE!!!

Maybe the first authors of the Iliad, since it was orally transmitted before it was written down in Classical times, used a form of the verb to SEE which was of proto-Slavic origin or even Sanskrit!!!

The modern Greek being a fusion of Dimotiki and Katharevousa from the 19th century might have taken the term as the form for past tense of the verb VLEPO, similarly to the past tense form of the verb to GO in English which changes into WENT.

Let me demonstrate it:

"The preterit, (or 'simple past tense') in no way etymologically relates to GO, for WENT comes from WENDAN in Old English, which is also the source of WEND."

)">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(verb)

"Theories concerning the origin of gone are discussed below."

Origin of ēode

Old English didn't have the preterite WENT in any form, instead using the word "ēode", a word which has not left any trace in modern English in any form"

The term for GO in Macedonian is surprisingly "ODI"!!!

"The root itself, ēo, came from the unattested Proto-Germanic *ijjôm. The Gothic form of this root is iddja, but this form hasn't produced any other attested root words in the other Germanic languages."

So IDDJA or IDAM is also another form of ODAM (to go), in most of the Slavic languages! ODI SI means GO AWAY!

Now I am surprised what ODYSSEY means at all!!!

Let us check: (Merriam Webster Dictionary)

Odyssey

Etymology: the Odyssey, epic poem attributed to Homer recounting the long wanderings of Odysseus

1 : a long wandering or voyage usually marked by many changes of fortune
2 : an intellectual or spiritual wandering or quest

So my question is the following: if "ODI SI" means GO AWAY even today in Macedonian, and the form of GONE comes from an older proto-German word "ēode" which is not in use in English as such today, however has transformed into GONE, then if we have "Odyssey" in Homer that means a "journey" or "GOING AWAY", isn't it logical to say that the word is of Slavic or proto-Slavic origin that has entered the Greek, German and other languages since the Slavic linguistic element is one of the primary in the Indo-European linguistic substratum, and has been best preserved into modern day Macedonian language! This curiously makes Macedonian language one of the oldest languages in Europe, a language that supposedly the first authors of the epic Odyssey were using! Maybe the one used with Linear B in the Mycenaean epoch!?!

In other words, Homer's Odyssey which means a JOURNEY means the same in modern day Macedonian!

While say JOURNEY in modern Greek is:

journey = ταξίδι (taxidi)

and TO GO is:

go = πηγαίνω (pigaino)

while to WALK is:

walk = περπατώ, περίπατος (perpato, peripatos)

No trace of ODISI or ODYSSEY or EODE or any Indo-European form of the word in the Modern Greek! While everyone knows that Odyssey meant JOURNEY in Homer's time!

http://www.answers.com/topic/odyssey-1">http://www.answers.com/topic/odyssey-1

However, Macedonian language has preserved the original form in its true meaning!

ODI SI - GO AWAY

ODYSSEY – JOURNEY



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 15:37
I will not say much...One thing is enough...

There's a thing called GOOGLE where you can verify things before posting them. Just google the word Οίνος and you'll see how many hits you will get...

Also, remember that in Greek you have 2 or more words for the same thing, like Pelagos and Thalassa, polis and asty, petra and lithos.

MAKEDONIKOS TOPIKOS OINOS TSANTALI Cheers



OINOS EPITRAPEZIOS XYROS LEFKOS



OURANIOS OINOS





That's my two cents, let the others read and decide. Thank you.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 15:50
Originally posted by Petro Invictus


So my question is the following: if "ODI SI" means GO AWAY even today in Macedonian, and the form of GONE comes from an older proto-German word "ēode" which is not in use in English as such today

 
What is a proto-German language??? I've never heard of it. And I've never heard of that 'ēode' form. Could you tell me what your source is?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:20
Exactly Flipper! And I didn't deny that the term OINOS exists in modern Greek! However, it is in secondary use to the term KRASI!!!

It indicates that the term OINOS reentered the modern Greek language after the intervention with the Katharevousa. Should I explain that better?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:26
Proto-Germanic, or Common Germanic, is the hypothetical common ancestor (proto-language) of all the Germanic languages such as modern English, Dutch, German, Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic and Swedish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(verb)

Here is another link Slayer!

http://74.125.39.104/search?q=cache:MWgS9jSOnAgJ:https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/1910/1/344_082.pdf+%C4%93ode+proto+Germanic&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a
In his discussion of OE eode 'went', Cowgill assumes a develop-
ment of 3rd sg. *eaje to *eae, then contracted to *eö, which yielded
West Germanic *eu, then *euda (1960:494, 499). This theory meets
with a number of difficulties.
In his discussion of OE eode 'went', Cowgill assumes a develop-
ment of 3rd sg. *eaje to *eae, then contracted to *eö, which yielded
West Germanic *eu, then *euda (1960:494, 499). This theory meets
with a number of difficulties.
In his discussion of OE eode 'went', Cowgill assumes a develop-
ment of 3rd sg. *eaje to *eae, then contracted to *eö, which yielded
West Germanic *eu, then *euda (1960:494, 499). This theory meets
with a number of difficulties


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:26
And yet another one:

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cgermet&first=541

Proto-Germanic: *i- vb. Meaning: go IE etymology: Gothic: prt. iddja `went' Old English: ēode `went'


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:34
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Exactly Flipper! And I didn't deny that the term OINOS exists in modern Greek! However, it is in secondary use to the term KRASI!!!

It indicates that the term OINOS reentered the modern Greek language after the intervention with the Katharevousa. Should I explain that better?


You say that based on what Stefov says? Cause I guess you don't speak Greek to make such a conclution. Please, whenever you cross the border, enter a liquer store and pick any bottle of wine you want. Tell me how many times you will see Οίνος and how many times you will see Κρασί.

To all the others...I guess you can find a Greek wine in your countries stores. Just for this case, have a look on the bottles and let me know what word you will see. Smile


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:40
Moreover Flipper! I thought you should teach me a bit of Greek but it turns out that I should teach you a bit of etymology here!

Again:

http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/history.htm

"The Ancient Greeks loved to organize intellectual gatherings called "symposia" where they would eat and talk about predetermined philosophical subjects while drinking wine. While moderation was strictly adhered to, the Greeks would utilize the beneficial effects of wine to help achieve greater intellectual clarity and spiritual awareness. Wine was always diluted with water before drinking in a vase called "kratiras," derived from the Greek word krasis, meaning the mixture of wine and water. The word Krasi is now currently used in the Greek language as the term for wine."




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:44
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

And yet another one:

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cgermet&first=541

Proto-Germanic: *i- vb. Meaning: go IE etymology: Gothic: prt. iddja `went' Old English: ēode `went'


I know very well what Proto-Germanic is....but you wrote Proto-German!

And it wasn't proto-German(ic), it was Old English just as I presupposed...'eo' is a very common diphtong of Old English...e.g. 'ic eom'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:49
Originally posted by Petro Invictus


the form of GONE comes from an older proto-German word "ēode"


No it doesn't. It's related to 'gang' element. And of course, 'eode' is OE, not proto-Germanic, and in no way proto-German.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:53
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Moreover Flipper! I thought you should teach me a bit of Greek but it turns out that I should teach you a bit of etymology here!

Again:

http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/history.htm

"The Ancient Greeks loved to organize intellectual gatherings called "symposia" where they would eat and talk about predetermined philosophical subjects while drinking wine. While moderation was strictly adhered to, the Greeks would utilize the beneficial effects of wine to help achieve greater intellectual clarity and spiritual awareness. Wine was always diluted with water before drinking in a vase called "kratiras," derived from the Greek word krasis, meaning the mixture of wine and water. The word Krasi is now currently used in the Greek language as the term for wine."




Well, i guess that statement is partially correct. We use both (like many other words), not just krasi and I have already demonstrated that to you. No point going in circles unless you believe the pictures i posted are fake. I guess as a native speaker i know much more than any author of a foreign site.

Why not use http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ and try writting the word to see what you get?


Edited by Flipper - 14-Jun-2008 at 16:56


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:58
In the following article that I will provide with this link:

http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/history.htm

There are several denotations regarding the use of the term OINOS in ancient Greece.

1) The Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon of classical Greek defines oinos as ‘the fermented juice of the grape.’ Interestingly, classical Greek apparently used oinos as a functional equivalent for ‘fermented juice,’ as Liddell and Scott note . . ."

In the light of such a categorical claim, it is important to ascertain if indeed it is true that in classical Greek oinos meant only fermented grape juice. If this claim can be shown to be untrue—by submitting literary examples where oinos refers also to unfermented grape juice—then it is certainly possible that the same dual meaning of oinos is present also in the New Testament and in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, known as the Septuagint

2)
In the light of such a categorical claim, it is important to ascertain if indeed it is true that in classical Greek oinos meant only fermented grape juice. If this claim can be shown to be untrue—by submitting literary examples where oinos refers also to unfermented grape juice—then it is certainly possible that the same dual meaning of oinos is present also in the New Testament and in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, known as the Septuagint

3)
Athenaeus, the Grammarian (about A.D. 200), explains in his Banquet that "the Mityleneans have a sweet wine [glukon oinon], what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos."

4)
Oinos as Pressed Grape Juice. In several texts the freshly squeezed juice of the grape is denominated oinos "wine."

5)
The above sampling of texts, from both secular and religious authors, makes it abundantly clear that the Greek word oinos, like the Latin vinum and the English wine, was used as a generic term to refer either to fermented or unfermented grape juice.

Now, having all of this in mind, as well as the fact that the term FOINOS was first recognized in Linear B as confirmed in the following extract:


"My hypotesis for the etymology of PHORKYS would most likely from a Mycenaean or preclassical word, *FORKYS (not yet documented), "a large kind of tunny or sea-monster, a big-crab, or any sea-monster". The letter Digamma, or F, disappeared into the Greek classic, for example, FOINOS (documented in Linear B and other ancient dialects) after, in the Greek Classic is Oinos, 'wine'. "

Posted by Georgeos Díaz-Montexano (a hispano-american investigator on the location of Atlantis).

So if the letter F disappeared in classical Greek to get OINOS, and the term FOINOS which is of much older use in the Mycenaean language, when compared to VINO (F-V voiceless and voiced complementary phonemes), then the assumption that the term FOINOS is closer to the Macedonian VINO is inevitable.

The fact that the term Krasi is in primary use in modern Greek as a term denoting Wine, makes it even more ambiguous to understand why the modern Greek has not preserved the original OINOS or FOINOS, where in modern day Macedonian, and other Slavic languages, it has preserved the W/V sounding as well as more or less the same form of the term!

Maybe because the term OINOS derived from FOINOS which is closer to VINO, and very much distant from KRASI, GLUKOS, PRODROMOS...

Comments please!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 16:59
Moreover...

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=wine

L. vinum "wine," from PIE *win-o-, from an Italic noun related to words for "wine" in Gk. (oinos), Armenian, Hittite

As for FOINOS...Linear B is a syllabic system, which means that they couldn't write just OI but they had to use a syllable. Wink They didn't say FOINOS, as the didn't say qippos nor Alekusadara nor Wanax.




Edited by Flipper - 14-Jun-2008 at 17:06


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