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Documentray: Stolen Kosovo |
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HEROI 
Baron 
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
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 Topic: Documentray: Stolen KosovoPosted: 27-Jun-2008 at 10:20 |
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And one more thing,Denying the Srebrenica massacre,and not only that bu blaming Bosniacs and NATO for that,is like denying the Holocoust and blaming the Allies and the Jews for doing that. I wonder if anybody opens a topic doing that wether it will or it should be allowed to get away with such crap. |
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke 
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 11:43 |
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Hello Carpathian
I think you missed my point entirely haven't you, anyway, I suggest you should read the NYtimes articles by the same guy who wrote the Albanian article you posted earlier.
Anyway, here are videos since a picture is worth a thousand words:
and of course the famous "Scorpions" death squad video where the Orthodox priest blessed the combatants, and the Scorpion branch of the Republic of yoguslavia, where good hearted merciful peace lover Milsovic was president:
the soldiers were also Serbian and even the Serb government tried them, because Surprisingly
 , they were citizens of Serbia from the start, its funny that you are even more Serbian than Milosovic himself:Anyway, something tells me that you really don't want to believe, so to make things straight, give me a short list of the sources you trust and their form, since obviously you have an issue with each proof that strikes down your argument even if it was a video, and I will prove to you using your own provided sources my point.
Al-Jassas
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vranakonti
Samurai 
Joined: 11-Jun-2007 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 117 |
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Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 11:53 |
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Ti Shqipri m ep nder...
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Carpathian Wolf
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BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
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Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 16:54 |
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HEROI:
Then I guess the Bosniak generals that they themselves say were betrayed by Izetbegovic should be banned from these forums too?  Of his cabinet members that talk about how the American diplomats told Izetbegovic that Clinton needs some 5,000 victims before he can get involved? Here's an idea. Don't talk type, but read. Then type.Al-Jassas:
First you have to make a point. Those articles show a poor understanding of Yugoslav politics. For example when Milosevic took the presidency of Voivodina away you have to ask yourself, why did Voivodina even have a president? Why is it that Tito made Yugoslavian boarders so that 46 percent of the Serbs lived outside of Serbia itself? Why were all these Serbian regions made autonomous? Because he wanted to split up the Serbian majority and keep his sense of "balance." But you don't know that, because you don't care to read the history in depth about it do you? Instead you just read an article with poor history and make up your mind. The first few vids you posted wouldn't load for me but the last few did. First off how do you know those men executed weren't fighters? If you have detailed information on the people you are fighting, if they are war criminals such as Naser Oric's men in Srebrenica you can execute those in a summery execution. Secondly, I never said Serbs didn't do bad things. I just said it was grossly exagirated while the other sides were almost ignored. Thirdly, the priest part is really lame. Priests bless everyone who goes fighting. You trying to portray it as "Orthodox priest blesses people to murder!" Is really just lame and a weak point.
I already gave you the sources. Go read through that. Those are sources from all over. The Bosniaks themselves say the same thing I am saying.
vranakonti:
Thank you for the propaganda. That is exactly what propaganda is. What did Mladic mean? Well it is left up to the listener to make up their mind. You and the other anti serbs will believe he meant genocide and a massacre. But i guess it is easier to see 20 seconds of video out of context then to take 20 or so minutes to read the sources I posted.
Go ahead read it. See for yourself if you can deny it. Take ANY part of that. Recopy and paste it and let's discuss it.
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 18:24 |
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Then why the hell you quoted the guy in the first place? The guy is an expert on Yoguslavia, he has been reporting on the country particularly for some 20 years, like Tom Gjelten of NPR, he is sympathetic to the Serbs, not openly and not to the point of fanaticism. As for the Videos, well, i would proudly say to you that these videos were provided by non other than the Serbian government itself which lobbied everywhere to stop Del Ponte from publically sharing it with the world. Any blind guy knows these were no more than teenagers and the Serbs themselves admitted that and tried two of the excecuters. There are much more horrible videos about what happened in Bosnia, just go to youtube and print "Serb massacres". Yes, many things were completely wrong in Titos time and before but the problems could have been solved easily. Rogova asked for a democratic free government with autonomy in 1990. He and Albania negotiators were willing to give a third of Kosovo before the war started including the richest valleys and mineral sites but Serbs had other thoughts, they, rather the nationalist element, started the troubles refusing to share the army and its resources, using it to advance the interests of one nation (Serbia) and dangerous incidents that occured. Later wrong things did happen to Serbia most importantely the ethnic cleansing at the hand of the Croats but you reap what you saw and the Serbs, Milosovic particularly started the problems and the Serbs suffered. Look at Macedonia, the Macedonians realized that there were indeed issues that the Albanian needed to be adressed and now when they adressed them rather than use the heavy handed tacticts of Serbia the issue solved itself albeit it is still not topsy turvey but its going on well and the idea of greater Albania is far from being on the table.
As for Srebrenica and what really happened, well, there is no better proof than the 7000 page report that led to the fall of the Dutch government in 2002. If any report should be biased it should be this one yet this report compiled by military experts, politicians and interviewing every one connected with the massacre including Serbs as far as I know. This report answers all the objections you put and gives full and undoubted proof on what was really the situation there. Unfotunately I don't know of an english copy but here is a summary by the BBC:
AL-Jassas
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 19:53 |
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"Then why the hell you quoted the guy in the first place? The guy is an expert on Yoguslavia, he has been reporting on the country particularly for some 20 years, like Tom Gjelten of NPR, he is sympathetic to the Serbs, not openly and not to the point of fanaticism."
What guy?
"As for the Videos, well, i would proudly say to you that these videos were provided by non other than the Serbian government itself which lobbied everywhere to stop Del Ponte from publically sharing it with the world. Any blind guy knows these were no more than teenagers and the Serbs themselves admitted that and tried two of the excecuters. There are much more horrible videos about what happened in Bosnia, just go to youtube and print "Serb massacres"."
Lobbied to stop the world from seeing them? This is complete non sense. And so what if they are teenagers? Teenagers can kill too. They can slaughter, they can rape, they can do everything. If i caught someone doing those things in my country i'd have executed them too. Look at the UN ducomentation and reports concerning the slaughter at Srebrenica by Naser Oric's men. You have obviously skipped it and that is going to be repeated until you actually read it.
"Yes, many things were completely wrong in Titos time and before but the problems could have been solved easily. Rogova asked for a democratic free government with autonomy in 1990. He and Albania negotiators were willing to give a third of Kosovo before the war started including the richest valleys and mineral sites but Serbs had other thoughts, they, rather the nationalist element, started the troubles refusing to share the army and its resources, using it to advance the interests of one nation (Serbia) and dangerous incidents that occured. Later wrong things did happen to Serbia most importantely the ethnic cleansing at the hand of the Croats but you reap what you saw and the Serbs, Milosovic particularly started the problems and the Serbs suffered. Look at Macedonia, the Macedonians realized that there were indeed issues that the Albanian needed to be adressed and now when they adressed them rather than use the heavy handed tacticts of Serbia the issue solved itself albeit it is still not topsy turvey but its going on well and the idea of greater Albania is far from being on the table."
The nationalistic elements at hand were the KLA. They were the number 1 reason peace was not possible in Kosovo.
"As for Srebrenica and what really happened, well, there is no better proof than the 7000 page report that led to the fall of the Dutch government in 2002. If any report should be biased it should be this one yet this report compiled by military experts, politicians and interviewing every one connected with the massacre including Serbs as far as I know. This report answers all the objections you put and gives full and undoubted proof on what was really the situation there."
Funny I have a UN document in my post along with all various other sources even the Bosniaks themselves agree with me and not you. So again once you read that then we'll talk. |
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 23:05 |
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The guy I talk about is David Binder. You quoted his earlier remember.
As for the video, again, the Serbian government tried to stop the video's release and tried some of the guys involved and sentenced them, if this is not an admission to guilt then what is?
And even if they raped and murdered, have they been tried in a court of law? Was there any proof of their crimes? what were the type of their crime? All what we know is they were citizens of a safe area designated by the UN, accepted by Serbians and the Serbs INVADED their territory, so if they were guilty of anything they were guilty of defending themselves and this is their right according to the Geneva conventions and the Serbs had no right in the world to execute them no matter what was the reason.
Please read the testimonies of Serb officers who participated in the massacre, the Dutch genocide keepers who watched and drunk the health of Mladic while the people they supposed to protect were being herded and massacred:
Also I think there is enough mass graves of boys who couldn't rape and can't carry guns are more than sufficient:
Even Milosovic himself doesn't deny the existance of the massacre which you do:
As do Bosnian Serbs
Now I brought you admission from people directly involved and you still argue with dubios reports and testimonies contradicted by the overwhelming evidence that already exist?
What is worse than the devil is the devil's advocate. This is my judgment.
Also, it was the Serbs who started the hostilities in the beginning not the Bosniacs in Srebrenica and other places, it was the Serbs who started killing civilian long before any retaliation of kind was done, every UN investigation proved that no more than 650 Serb civilians died between 1992 and 1995 and the Serbs, who claim 3000+ in Srebrenica and Bratunac yet they failed to prove that claim beyond the 650 proved by the UN. The first confirmed attack by Bosniacs on Serbs in Srebrenica was in may 6th 92, a full two months AFTER Serbs started the war and the mass killing and deportation of muslims started.
Al-Jassas
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 00:01 |
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"The guy I talk about is David Binder. You quoted his earlier remember."
What of him? Could you please attempt to formulate a complete thought and then go forth and express it for us all? You're manner of communication is in-efficient and vexing.
"And even if they raped and murdered, have they been tried in a court of law?"
They were found to be guilty. The UN report that I have posted the intro to is proof enough. If you would stop typing so often and read more I wouldn't be wasting my time repeating something i've already gone over.
"Was there any proof of their crimes?"
Yes.
"what were the type of their crime?"
Please actually read my post in the previous page. Again try to be more efficient with our time.
"All what we know is they were citizens of a safe area designated by the UN, accepted by Serbians and the Serbs INVADED their territory, so if they were guilty of anything they were guilty of defending themselves and this is their right according to the Geneva conventions and the Serbs had no right in the world to execute them no matter what was the reason."
This quote is obvious you did not read anything I posted. You continue to badger me with your western media out let news. Srebrenica was a Serbian town previously until WW2 and the villages around it were Serbian. I provided the information that proves that. The crimes of Naser Oric and his men were also detailed in my previous post. I can not force feed you the information. Had we been on a different forum perhaps I could speak more directly, but that line of actions here would prove pointless. "Please read the testimonies of Serb officers who participated in the massacre, the Dutch genocide keepers who watched and drunk the health of Mladic while the people they supposed to protect were being herded and massacred:"
I am so glad you brought him up. Drazen was a war criminal but he had never fought in Srebrenica. He was a Croatian soldier and he commited war crimes in the war on the side of the Croatian army. The way the Hague trial is set up such as this: If you can testify of war crimes against Milosevic, your war crimes are forgiven or your sentence is lowered. Drazen was no more happy then to say he was at Srebrenica in exchange for his crimes. I'll refer you to "Witness L." Go study up on that. "Also I think there is enough mass graves of boys who couldn't rape and can't carry guns are more than sufficient:"
Mass graves themselves don't prove any crime. In wars there is no time to go bury each person individually. When Naser Oric's men took civilians with them north and were ambushed in combat there were a lot of casualties. But again you didn't read about the testimony from the Bosniak commanders on ground. "Even Milosovic himself doesn't deny the existance of the massacre which you do:"
I don't deny the existance of massacres either. And I feel very sorry for them. Sorry for the Serbs that had to live under Naser Oric all those years. How a truley evil monster was allowed to run freely and proudly slaughtered civilians. Perhaps BBC confused which massacre. Of course an accident. "As do Bosnian Serbs"
This is non sense. The Bosnian Serbs are afraid of admiting there was a massacre? Where do they find out things like that? Some western puppet spouting non sense isn't the admition of a nation and flies directly in the face of all the evidence.
"Also, it was the Serbs who started the hostilities in the beginning not the Bosniacs in Srebrenica and other places,"
Izetbegovic was the one that forced himself into power and told the Serbs in Bosnia they had to live under him.
"it was the Serbs who started killing civilian long before any retaliation of kind was done, every UN investigation proved that no more than 650 Serb civilians died between 1992 and 1995 and the Serbs, who claim 3000+ in Srebrenica and Bratunac yet they failed to prove that claim beyond the 650 proved by the UN. The first confirmed attack by Bosniacs on Serbs in Srebrenica was in may 6th 92, a full two months AFTER Serbs started the war and the mass killing and deportation of muslims started. "
Read my full post. I don't know why you can't just read it and yet you continue to speak. People who only like to speak their arguements and do not listen to others are ignorant, and probably shouldn't shame themselves by speaking. That is my judgement. You agree don't you?
I'll ask you directly. Did you read my posts in full?
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 05:38 |
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Hahaha. So the guy with no guns or power in middle Sarajevo caused war and 70, 000 of his people to die? You are full of delusions. As far as Jugoslavia it was made according to historical regional lines. Hence why Kosovo and Voivodina were paired with Serbia but given autonomy due to high minority numbers. And as far as Krajina - that is 100% Croatian territory that Serbs were minorities in. As far as RS that is 100% Bosnian territory where Bosnian Serbs lived in equilibrium with Catholics and Muslims until they kicked and killed almost everyone out. After the dayton accords the Serb Republic as part of Bosnia still holds half of the territory officially when they constitute only about 35-7% of the territory. Not to mention that most of it had been lost by 95 and was taken away from the Cro-Bosnian federation.
Izetbegovic did not cause the massacre. I do not agree that he should have been president. Abdic should have been president and Izetbegovic and Karadzic should have been suspended as minority members of the council. But to say he caused the massacre that is funny. And actually I know persons from Srebrenica who actually have seen this and are missing entire male side of their families. |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 05:39 |
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I am reluctant to post in this thread because you have several people here defeating your points and you still have not come full circle. But half of your posts are so ignorant that I cannot help it.
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Carpathian Wolf
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BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 06:25 |
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"Hahaha. So the guy with no guns or power in middle Sarajevo caused war and 70, 000 of his people to die? You are full of delusions. As far as Jugoslavia it was made according to historical regional lines."
Read the Bosniak general's testaments. They themselves said that Izetbegovic retreated many of the commanders out of Srebrenica and left only lower ranked ones. His cabinent members say that Clinton's diplomats told him to do this in order to gain 5,000 casualties so that he could intervene more directly. Izetbegovic himself in his book said that the creation of a Muslim state is the goal "NO MATTER WHO THE VICTIMS ARE." If the Bosniak generals and cabinet members themselves admit this, and this is documented, why do you deny it? This isn't like Al-Jassas' example of Joe Croat pretending to be a Serb to get out of trouble by lying. These were high ranking Bosniak generals and a cabinet member.
"And as far as Krajina - that is 100% Croatian territory that Serbs were minorities in."
Look at the map and don't be ignorant. Krajina has been Serb land since the 1500s when the Austrians moved Serbs in because it was empty. Look at the two maps I provided. That is from Encyclopedia Britannica and National Geographic. The largest act of ethnic cleansing since World War 2 happened in Krajina against the Serbs during Operations Flash and Storm. Look at the maps for yourself. "As far as RS that is 100% Bosnian territory where Bosnian Serbs lived in equilibrium with Catholics and Muslims until they kicked and killed almost everyone out."
This is complete non-sense. Let's have a look at the map.  You don't even know the geography of your own country. You can look at the previous maps and see for yourself that Serbs have been the ones being kicked out of their lands. Look at the North West section of the map. Look at all those Serbs that are majority but not part of the RS.
"Izetbegovic did not cause the massacre. I do not agree that he should have been president. Abdic should have been president and Izetbegovic and Karadzic should have been suspended as minority members of the council. But to say he caused the massacre that is funny. And actually I know persons from Srebrenica who actually have seen this and are missing entire male side of their families. "
Let's look at another map from the Texas University:
 Izetbegovic caused the "massacre" when he refused to allow the 285th Bosniak unit to fight against the Serbs. When he allowed the western powers to re-arm Naser Oric's men in Srebrenica (as documented, I have posted this already) that allowed Naser Oric's men to rape and kill in order to draw the Serbs in. He caused it by pulling away the command before the Serbs' attack so there would be casualties, at least 5,000 as Izetbegovic's generals and cabinet members SAY SO THEMSELVES.
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 06:28 |
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"I am reluctant to post in this thread because you have several people here defeating your points and you still have not come full circle. But half of your posts are so ignorant that I cannot help it. "
Oh yea clearly I offer UN documentation, encylopedia maps and various other sources and the others "defeated" my points with some vague BBC propagandist non sense.
I'll saw my right arm off and mail it to you if you actually read half of my posts. That last page is everything you need to be convinced of the truth and you won't even as much as gaze over it. You're living in your own fantasy world and the only people that agree with you are people that are anti Serbian. But it doesn't matter, i'm not argueing to "win" in your eyes, but for the other people who read this thread. Those will appriciate a truthful perspective.
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 06:33 |
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Short excerpts from (different) encyclopediae: Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1946,...,1952 Necessity dictated in 1578 the formation of special provinces known as the "military frontiers" (q.v.) (Vojna Krajina) - the Slavonian between Drave and Kulpa with Varazdin as its centre, the Croatian between Kulpa and sea, with Karlovac (Karlstadt), so named after Archduke Charles of Styria, who held the supreme command. Their reincorporation was repeatedly demanded by the Croatian estates but without effect, and they RETAINED THEIR IDENTITY TILL LONG AFTER THE EXPULSION OF TURKS...
...in 1699... Karlovci was to be centre of the Serbian Orthodox Church, the patriarch of Pec', with thousands of Serbian refugees from Turkey, having settled in Slavonia and south Hungary under a special charter from Leopold I in 1690... ...In 1769, 1774 and 1776 Serbian national congress were allowed to meet in Karlovci, and again in 1790 at Temesvar, when Serb privileges were confirmed by Leopold II...
The Vojna Krajina (Militargrenze), a military frontier zone on Croatian territory, was formed in 1578. As THIS ZONE WAS SUBJECT DIRECTLY TO THE EMPEROR IN VIENNA, it meant further loss for the Croats. Turkish invasion instigated a partial change in the ethnic aspect of Croatian lands. Large numbers of Croats abandoned their homes and moved northward seeking safety, some even going out of Croatia altogether into Austria. In partly depopulated areas the rulers settled... ...or granted certain privileges to the Serbs who escaped from the Balkans and took refuge in the Vojna Krajina to became defenders of the Habsburg Empire. (End quote)
The Encyclopedia Americana, International Edition, year 1993 In 1578 the Habsburgs created the so-called Military Frontier, where peasants were granted land in return for military service. THE AREA WAS ADMINISTERED *DIRECTLY* FROM VIENNA, *NOT* FROM CROATIA,... (!!!)
Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1952 ...in 1527, after the defeat of Hungary by the Turks at Mohacs, southern Croatia was left deserted, its inhabitants having fled north before the Turks. The Austrian government built a series of forts in this zone, and organized the remaining population, with immigrant Serbs and Vlachs, into a defense force under military supervision... This organization was gradually extended, and in 1630 received a formal statute. By the end of the 17th century, there were three "Generalates," in Karlstadt (Karlovats), Warasdin and Petrinja respectively. The Hungarian and Croat Estates deeply resented the existence of this EXCEPTION FROM THEIR AUTHORITY, and constantly demanded its abolition, especially after Prince Eugene's victories had practically ended the Turkish peril, but the "Granzer" themselves RESISTED ANY CHANGE, and Habsburgs had also now become alive to its usefulness as a weapon against the unruly nobles. Instead of abolishing, they extended it: a new Slavonian district was established in 1702, a Szekler, in East Transylvania, in 1764, and Wallach in 1766. THE FRONTIER NOW RAN FROM THE ADRIATIC TO THE CONFINES OF MOLDAVIA. The "Grenzer" gradually became the backbone of the Austrian army. As its bravest, most loyal and best disciplined troops... In 1849 the Frontier was formed into a separate province, with an area of 15,182 sq.m., and a population of 1,220,503, MOSTLY SERB or Croat, with some Vlach or Rumanian... (End quote)
Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1990 A prominent feature of Austrian and Hungarian lands was the "Military Frontier" (Militargrenze), which dated from the first attempts to reclaim Croatia and Slavonia from the Turkish rule. In 1578 the Austrians began to organize frontier marchlands against the Turks with a system of forts, watchtowers, and warning beacons staffed by a force of granicari (frontiersmen). the granicari were granted land in frontier regions in return for military service. The system was reorganized and consolidated through the next two centuries, ... At its height it extended in a belt of varying widths across the entire northern border of the Ottoman Empire from the Adriatic coast to Walacia... Having been badly depopulated by Turkish raids, the Military Frontier was resettled largely by refugees of a variety of ethnic origins, but Serbs and Bosnians (*) contributed a large portion. Particularly important was the great migration in 1691, as a consequence of which the region came to contain some of the major centres of Serbian culture... The ethnic map of Yugoslavia today [1990] bears the marks of these migrations. (End quote) * - Note that the author could not think of "Bosnians" as Muslims as interpreted only two years later by the Western media. No-one would invite Muslims to fight against Muslim Turkish invaders. Obviously by "Bosnians" the author was referring to Bosnian Christians (i.e. Serbs and some Croats).
Short recapitulation: In order to defend their civilization, Chinese built the wall. In order to stop Islamic invasion of Europe, Habsburgs built a Military Frontier (Militargrenze in German, Vojna Krajina or simply KRAJINA in Serbo-Croatian). Serbs were the brave border guards of Christianity, for many centuries. Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia and Krajina were always separate, political and geographical entities. It was only in Nazi puppet Independent State of Croatia (1941 - 1945) and in Communist Yugoslavia (led by absolute authority of Croatian Communist Tito) that all these different entities were simply labeled - Croatia. Krajina, which for last four centuries was populated with majority Serbian population was never (with exception of the above mentioned periods) - ruled by Croatia. It is a prime sarcasm to call these Serbs - "Croatian" Serbs, as if they were, somehow, a property of Croatia. During the first (Nazi) period Serbs were slaughtered, en masse, by Croatian fascists ( Ustashe ). During Croatian Communist Tito's rule, Krajina was purposely left undeveloped. Despite the genocide, despite the hardships, the Serbs endured and were, still, majority population of Krajina. TILL AUGUST 1, 1995 - when with help of American equipent, training and aviation close support - AFTER FOUR CENTURIES THE SERBS WERE CLEANSED FROM THEIR LAND. THAT WAS, BY FAR, THE *LARGEST* ETHNIC CLEANSING KNOWN IN MODERN BALKAN HISTORY! Croatia, with conquered Serbian lands of Krajina, is *THE MOST ETHNICALLY PURE* COUNTRY of Europe!
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 06:44 |
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The following map was issued in book "Yugoslavia, a Country Study", a publication printed by Headquarters, Department of Army, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, Edition 1982, page 99.
 The maps show basically the same configurations of the ethnic groups. Most of all, note that "Serbian Orthodox" - here - spreads far to the West from Serbia proper and takes sizable portion of Tito designed "Croatia" and "Bosnia and Hercegovina". These Eastern Orthodox Serbs who reside in these areas at least four centuries, as majority population, would be called by the Western media - "conquerors", "landgrabbers", "aggressors" etc. for the mere fact that they defended their own houses and property. Edited by Carpathian Wolf - 28-Jun-2008 at 06:46 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 07:08 |
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Maps like that do not show realities however. There were Croatians living within Krajina, and there were Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats living in RS for longer than any Orthodox lived there in the first place - but in contemporary terms in equivalent numbers. Cities like Banja Luka had a Muslim majority. All of this actually is omitted by simple maps. And people were expelled or killed off from the territories and now that is "justified" in your eyes. Of course it is expansion and conquest when these territories belong to sovereign nations that had full legal right to secede.
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Carpathian Wolf
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 07:19 |
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LOL okay the maps don't show reality now. So I guess you have the monopoly on reality while national geographic and various encyclopedia are what?
So let me get this straight. You are saying that Bosnian Muslims lived in RS longer then any Serbian?
"And people were expelled or killed off from the territories and now that is "justified" in your eyes. Of course it is expansion and conquest when these territories belong to sovereign nations that had full legal right to secede. "
The maps speak for themselves. Izetbegovic did not have the right to force Abdic out of presidency. He did not have the right to kidnap the Serbs living in Bosnia where they had always lived and force them to be part of his Bosnia. If the Bosniaks of Izetbegovic have the right to secede (which they didn't because the way they did it was illegal, YOU YOURSELF ADMIT THIS) then why can the Serbs living in Bosnia not secede from THAT new country and go back to Yugoslavia? And let's look at the battle lines of "land grabbing".
On this map the red lines present front lines between Serbs and others. After one compares the territory that, acording to this map, the Serbs held in May 1994 to the Ethnic maps of Yugoslavia published by:
1) Encyclopedia Britannica, Edition 1990
2) National Geographic, August 1990
it is crystal clear that the Serbian people ONLY DEFENDED the territory where they were MAJORITY population before the war have started. As shown here, on this Web site, the Serbian people were majority population on this territory - for many centuries. The repeaed claim by the Western press that the Serbs are "occupiers", "aggressors", "land grabbers"; etc. is clearly a fabrication.
So, what was the reason for the Goebbelsian methods in Western media satanization of one entire people? The answer to that question is clear from the end result. When here presented map is compared to the one presented in National Geographic, Edition June 1996 - which shows Dayton division line - it is clear that America (with by using NATO) have committed the largest ethnic clensing since the time of Hitler. All the UNPA (United Nations Protection Area) Zones - on this map presented as North, South, East and West - were GONE! Together with huge chunk of majority Serb areas in Western Bosnia. All in all - America have clensed ONE MILLION SERBS from their ancestral lands and property
 NOTE: "Muslim Front Line" is the front line in the battle between Muslims and Croats. The exception is the green line in the North-West, near circled number 14, in Bihac pocket. That was a battle line between Abdic secular Muslims (supported by the Serbs) and "government" forces of Islam Fundamentalist Muslim "President" Alija Izetbegovic.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One more IMPORTANT NOTE: Here presented battle lines (for week of 10 - 16 May, 1994) did not change much since they were established TWO YEARS BEFORE - in April 1992. The two years the Americans have used for waves of Nazi like bashing campaigns against the Serbian people ("Serb concentration camps", "mass rape", etc), for secret arming of Islam Fundamentalists... anything to postpone real peace negotiations. The charade of American "neutrality" and "inactivity" ended with NATO bombing of the Serbs in August 1995 and Dayton "negotiations" at gun-point.
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Proof once again that your knowledge here is painfully skewed to say the least.
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Carpathian Wolf
General
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 07:21 |
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Some info about Abdic:
Pro-Yugoslav Muslim Leader Put on Trial Below we have printed an English translation of an article from the Yugoslav newspaper, Politika, reporting on the trial of Fikret Abdic, the popular Bosnian Muslim leader.
Abdic was a great embarrassment to the U.S. government.
He was and is popular, arguably the most popular Muslim leader; he got the most votes in the 1990 Bosnian elections. And that was the problem because he was allied with the Bosnian Serbs. He supported the concept of Yugoslavia - a multiethnic state. He fought Alija Izetbegovic, the extreme Islamist, installed and maintained in Sarajevo through U.S. power and ludicrously misdescribed by U.S. government apologists as a great and broadminded democrat.
Fikret Abdic gives the lie to the claim, put forth by chauvinists of various sorts in Bosnia and by the media, that the fighting in Bosnia resulted from a racist attack by Serbian forces on Muslims.
Abdic and tens of thousands of followers set up the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, an area with a very strong partisan and anti-fascist tradition stemming from the W.W.II struggle against Nazi occupation and Croatian Ustasha terror.
The Autonomous area, which straddled the Bosnian and Croatian border, was populated by Muslims, Serbs, and some Croats who upheld Yugoslav ideals of solidarity. Abdic and his followers sided with the Serbs who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia and feared the rise of local fascism backed by the Great Powers. He fought on the Serbian side in Bosnia until both the Serbian Republic in Krajina (RSK) and his own ARWB were crushed by a coordinated offensive combining NATO airstrikes and a ground offensive by the 5th Corps of Alija Izetbegovic's army and the Croatian regular army (trained and led by the CIA and the privatized CIA-linked company, MPRI) thereby launching an ethnic-cleansing operation that drove 250,000 Serbs and some 50,000-80,000 Muslims from their traditional homes.
"Case Opened Against Fikret Abdic" By: R. Arsenic Politika (Belgrade)
ZAGREB (June 6, 2001) - After two months of preparations the regional state prosecutor in Rijeka initiated a case against Fikret Abdic, a citizen of B&H and Croatia, who has been based for a while now in Opatija, where the HQ of his company is found. By this act, the long-standing controversy between Bosnia and Croatia over the eventual fate of the leader of the Autonomous Movement for Western Bosnia - where Abdic has the support of his own people who followed him in resistance to the centralism of Alija Izetbegovic and his SDA.
Fikret Abdic lost that war (even though he had won in elections), and the Izetbegovic regime has since accused him of war-crimes against those who disagreed with his policies and has asked for Abdic's extradition from Croatia to which he fled and whose citizenship he held.
After his military defeat in the region of Cazinska Krajina and Velika Kladusha at the hands of the 5th Corps. of the ARBiH [Alija Izetbegovic's Islamist army], more than 50,000 Muslims loyal to Abdic - some put the figure at 80,000 - moved into the neighboring Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) to seek refuge. This fact proved that the propaganda claiming that the war was rooted in an unbridgable gap between Serbs and Muslims was false, but that its roots lied somewhere else. Soon after this the RSK also fell and the fact that Muslims were escaping from Alija's men and seeking refuge with the Serbs was quickly suppressed by those who didn't want to highlight these truths because they brought into question already formed stereotypes of the conflict.
Alija's regime couldn't forgive Fikret's rebellion, and judging from the available evidence they also couldn't support his unquestionable popularity with not only the people of the region of Cazinska Krajina (remember that Abdic received the most votes in Bosnia, but Izetbegovic nonetheless seized the Presidency in the early 1990s). This is why after the fall of the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia Croatia received a demand from Bosnia to extradite Fikret Abdic, who was accused of having opened a camp near Velika Kladusha and of torturing prisoners within the camp.
According to the statement of Rijeka's prosecutor Draga Marincela, the case against Abdic is composed of documents that were obtained from Bosnia, and is being raised on the basis of the international treaty between Croatia and Bosnia regarding approaches to criminal cases, and following the Bosnian governments acceptance of this process.
R. Arsenic
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Carpathian Wolf
General
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 07:48 |
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Let's take it piece by piece. We can start with this since you don't want to read all those posts. Make it bite sized for you.
"The International Community
needed the genocide!!!" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thursday, 5 April 2001 The Hague Proceedings, starting on page 9480: From tape presented:
[Muslim official] Hakija Meholjic [INTERPRETER Voiceover]: THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "A meeting with American president Clinton, Alija [Izetbegovic] was telling us about the offer of Clinton. Chetniks [ment as derogatory for Serbs] would take Srebrenica and kill 5.000 Muslims, and then there will be a military intervention, and what did we think about that? And we rejected that. We didn't think it was normal that 5.000 people would be slaughtered." [Dutch narrator(?)]: That the American president would have suggested that Serbs would enter Srebrenica and to kill Muslims in order to justify an intervention would be too absurd, but from the UN research, it now seems that this is not too awkward. Some surviving members of the Srebrenica delegation have stated that President Izetbegovic also told them that he had learned that a NATO intervention in Bosnia-Herzegovina was possible but could only occur if the Serbs which would break into Srebrenica are killing at least 5.000 of its people.
We talked about an exchange and the exchange of Srebrenica for other territories.
UN report: The delegation opposed the idea and the subject was not discussed further.
[Hakija Meholjic]: In negotiations we will demand that the maps will be corrected in the Bosnian parliament, that the Bosnian Republic will get Muslim territory along the Drina. The delegation is -- imposed secrecy. The exchange of territories is not -- it was not abolished. We agreed to meet the next day. But after our meeting with Izetbegovic, people started to be bribed. People were taken everywhere. Men came that I didn't know and they made propositions. I've seen those men, but never again afterwards.
They spoke individually with us or in groups, sitting at a table. I was sitting at a table together with Mehovic, and they asked us what we thought about Srebrenica for [Sarajevo, Serb held suburb of] Vogosca, exchanging for Srebrenica for Vogosca, and Zepa for Ilijas [also suburb of Sarajevo]. In case I would not accept the exchange, I could be liquidated, so I returned with the delegation to Srebrenica.
General Halilovic was aware of the meeting between Izetbegovic and the delegation. According to him, the president spoke also with other representatives of Srebrenica. Izetbegovic offered to exchange Srebrenica for Zepa, for neighbourhoods in Sarajevo, Vogosca, Ilijas and Ilidza. We rejected that. Only half a year after Srebrenica was proclaimed a safe area, it is the Muslim government that discusses the destiny of the Muslim population in Srebrenica. Did Sarajevo sacrifice Srebrenica in 1993?
Answer: I think so, yes.
Interview of the Dutch Defence Ministry for [unintelligible]...
The question is: Would the Dutch government have sent DutchBat if they had known that the Muslims were considering the secret proposal and maybe have accepted that? Broskij, acting commander of DutchBat, says that this would have been decisive. This is Broskij, the acting commander:
Well, the situation would have been different for the Dutch government in that case. I'm certain of that... we would not have been sent in that case.
Early 1995, after a year of relative quiet, tensions increase in the enclave. February, a year and a half after the issue of exchange of territory was discussed -- they're talking about a discussion with Naser Oric. The one general refuses to take Oric with him. Early April 1995 Oric would have managed to speak to Izetbegovic and to discuss his presumptions. In the General Staff, according to this man, there was a meeting between Oric and Izetbegovic.
I heard from Naser that those two were together in one room during that night. Naser told me that himself. Everything indicates that Oric's fears were confirmed. Oric is back from Kakanj, but then he [Naser Oric] leaves for good from the enclave and he orders the deputy commander to come with him. After that, he told me, I don't know the exact number, but he sent about 20 officers away, known fighters who participated in heavy fighting. They were trusted by the soldiers and by the people. Each of them could easily gather a hundred people with them that were willing and able to die, able to die. He sent them away to [military] study, to follow an education. Sources confirm that Oric left on his own initiative. The soldiers spoke to Oric just before Oric left. He said he would come back. He said that he would come back and arrange something for our enclave.
The man who had been in the centre of attention for four years left in silence. DutchBat and the UN left -- knew that Oric has been in safety for three months only after the fall of Srebrenica.
Is this his biggest secret? Answer: Probably. His secret and Izetbegovic's secret.
Dutch deputy commander: He was a very strong leader.
The people, he really -- he was a very strong force behind his brigades, at the moment such a commander, at least, and case is complete. People panicked, especially women, children, and elderly, so the weaker groups. And the... army that was left started to panic. We saw that there was no more leadership, and we had obviously been abandoned...
Then something strange happened.
Muslim soldiers leave the enclave and plunder the [Serbian] village of Visnjica just behind the defence line. The order came from Sarajevo to change the pressure on the front. In the meeting, I resisted. This could not happen because this would cause problems. The village was very unimportant.
Still the order was given, and the guys in Srebrenica followed the order.
Why, for goodness' sake? Houses were burned. The attack was led by one of Oric's former allies, former associates.
11th of July, 1995, Serbs take the enclave. The Muslims separated. Women and children are bused to safety.
The men stay behind.
The remaining army, the remaining part of the army flees through the woods to [Muslim held] Tuzla... The International Community needed the genocide..."
[End of the Dutch documentary.]
Mr. Petrusic: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
Mr. Petrusic: General, sir, you will agree that the man on this video clip speaking about the alleged agreement of Alija Izetbegovic on the liquidation of 5.000 Muslims was Hakija Meholjic; am I right in saying that? For the record, you assert that it was Hakija Meholjic?
General Halilovic: Yes, that's right. It was Hakija Meholjic. |
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 07:57 |
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Hello Carpathian
As the english have a well know legal ruling, maxim, saying what ever you call it : An englishman's house is his castle, we in the Arabic legal tradition have: الإعتراف سيد الأدلة, admission is the supreme evidence. Now I brout you proofs that Serbs admitted what happened in Srebrenica and that no one could have done anything about it. If you which to ignore that is your problem not mine but as far as I and 99% of the people are concerned, the issue came to an end with those admissions Full Stop. I am not going to continue screaming into a brick wall to no avail. If you have more on this subject or proofs that the RS government didn't confess give them else ACCEPT the fact they did admitt. Till then I will talk about that subject no more.
As for KLA and Kosovo, well as I said before, non of the mainstream Albanians wanted independece, they wanted autonomy back and a stop to the Serbification of the province:
The Serbs had other ideas, they wanted not only to deny any kind of self rule, but started clamping down on the legal democratic opposition, in a simple word, the wanted a greater Serbia:
It was the Serb actions that escalated the situation despite the fact that Albanians NEVER demanded more than what they had previously, this led to the rise of the KLA but still it was a localised gang operating in certain small rural areas mostly based on clan rather than a real organised political force:
The plans for Kosovo in particular and greater Serbia in general were long in the dreams of Serb nationalists:
Most Serb nationalists wanted to take it all, strip Bosnia of 70% of its mass and splitting Croatia in half while giving absolutely nothing, not even basic political rights to ethnicities living within their borders.
Things reached a breaking point by continuing opression which led to the 1991 referendum on independece when just 1 year ago this was unthikable:
Remember that other autonomous regions in Serbia were never subject to suspension in their power (Voidoivina). The Serbs targeted the Albanians in Kosovo and that what happened.
Did the west recognise Kosovo's independence, know, not even Saudi Arabia did. The entire world agreed in 1992 that kosovo was an integral part of Serbia. The KLA was considered a terrorist organisation banned in all the world. Did the Serbs learn anything and started reconciliation, no they didn't, the repression grew even more and more:
Al-Jassas
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Carpathian Wolf
General
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 08:13 |
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"Hello Carpathian
As the english have a well know legal ruling, maxim, saying what ever you call it : An englishman's house is his castle, we in the Arabic legal tradition have: الإعتراف سيد الأدلة, admission is the supreme evidence."
And I just posted documentations of Bosniaks themselves admiting to what I have been saying all along. I have given you specific people, higher ups who were there "admiting" while you give me a "half baked he said she said article" from BBC to prove your point. "If you which to ignore that is your problem not mine but as far as I and 99% of the people are concerned, the issue came to an end with those admissions Full Stop. "
99 percent of the people who didn't do their research. Oh wait the Bosniaks themselves admited what I have been saying. And you'd know this if you would have read my post. Which you didn't. So your arguement is meaningless. Full Stop. Go read my post. Then come back.
"I am not going to continue screaming into a brick wall to no avail. If you have more on this subject or proofs that the RS government didn't confess give them else ACCEPT the fact they did admitt. Till then I will talk about that subject no more."
Right right, go read my post.
"As for KLA and Kosovo, well as I said before, non of the mainstream Albanians wanted independece, they wanted autonomy back and a stop to the Serbification of the province:"
Because they abused their autonomy.
"The Serbs had other ideas, they wanted not only to deny any kind of self rule, but started clamping down on the legal democratic opposition, in a simple word, the wanted a greater Serbia:"
Umm Kosovo was part of Serbia already so what part of that is "Greater Serbia." Those people were protesting the abuses of the Albanians against the Serbs. But sure you can try to demonize the Serbs as some crazy nationalistic land grabbing animals and i'm sure the people with the same mind as yours will agree.
"Most Serb nationalists wanted to take it all, strip Bosnia of 70% of its mass and splitting Croatia in half while giving absolutely nothing, not even basic political rights to ethnicities living within their borders."
Well let's consider Bosnia for example. Most of the people did not want to secede. Most Muslims voted for Abdic which was pro Yugoslav. The Serbs were also pro Yugoslav. So democratically speaking the majority of Bosnia wanted to remain part of Yugoslavia. Only Izetbegovic and his fanatics wanted their own country "NO MATTER THE VICTIMS" as he writes in his "Islamic Decleration".
Croatia itself today is a fabrication of Tito. Croatia is formed of Slavonia, Croatia and Dalmatia. Those were 3 different regions. The other region added onto it was Krajina. I already posted the encyclopedia sources proving this up above. Krajina since the 1500s has been Serb land.
What proof do you have that the Serbs didn't want to give basic minority rights to its minorities?
"Remember that other autonomous regions in Serbia were never subject to suspension in their power (Voidoivina). The Serbs targeted the Albanians in Kosovo and that what happened."
Because the people in Voivodina were civilized, and didn't attack police and kill civilians like the KLA.
"Did the west recognise Kosovo's independence, know, not even Saudi Arabia did. The entire world agreed in 1992 that kosovo was an integral part of Serbia. The KLA was considered a terrorist organisation banned in all the world. Did the Serbs learn anything and started reconciliation, no they didn't, the repression grew even more and more:"
Oh yes let's give the terrorists a prize for their killings. Surely giving them autonomy would stop the violence. Oh wait the KLA has wanted and always wanted Greater Albania with the same mentality as the Waffen SS Skanderbeg division, 2nd League of Prizren. Clearly you're the realistic one here. ;) Clearly.
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