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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 22:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think their logic is that in the 4th century AD Saxons came from the sky


Then you think wrong. Saxons separated/emerged from Ingvaeonic peoples - do you understand the word separate?? For every case:

to separate
(transitive) To divide (a thing) into separate parts.
Separate the articles from the headings.
(transitive) To cause (things or people) to be separate.
If the kids get too noisy, separate them for a few minutes.
(intransitive) To divide itself into separate pieces or substances.
The sauce will separate if you don't keep stirring.

In case you don't understand such a concept, then how could Iranians be ancestors of Germanic peoples?? They are definitely different today, and if ethnogenesis is impossible, then such ancestry as well.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

to the Germanic lands and Alans or other Iranian peoples never put their feet on this holy land!!!


Please, cease these constant accusations of us being nationalists, would you??

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

They probably flew over Germany when they reached the northern France in this century!!!


It's another of your claims, not ours. Don't make up.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 15-Jan-2009 at 22:24
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Posts: 168 		  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 23:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No need to swear, and don't attack a person's logic, attack their arguement.
They can't!
 
I think their logic is that in the 4th century AD Saxons came from the sky to the Germanic lands and Alans or other Iranian peoples never put their feet on this holy land!!! They probably flew over Germany when they reached the northern France in this century!!!
 
 
 
Cyrus you are acusing for being nationalistic why do you do that? Look at yourself in the mirrior and think again. We here do not use any nationalistic arguments at all.
ANd you can acuse Slayer for it because Slayer is a speaker of a Slavic langauge.
 
No Saxon is a west germanic langauge. And merged out of Ingvaeonic . Do you want me to post the old saxon poem again and post a another old Germanic text and let you compare it old Iranian texts. Then you will see that it is more similear to Germanic.
 
Cyrus you claim that we do not know anything about Iranian langauges yet I see that you are not to well versed in Germanic Languages.. just because you can understand English(that is the Germanic language that has changed the most in parts it was preserved the TH sounds how ever to a higher extent Wink that most Germanic langauges have taken back to T) those not make you an expert in Germanic fields.
 
All love
 
 


Edited by Some - 15-Jan-2009 at 23:03
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 23:29

Coming from the sky sounds more logical than the sudden appearance of a people!

Some, Would you please inform me about "ch", "gh" or "sh" sounds in the Germanic languages, please mention some proto-Germanic words with these sounds.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 00:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Coming from the sky sounds more logical than the sudden appearance of a people!


So you deny the concept of ethnogenesis?? Then according to your own way of...something (thinking?, logics?), every nation has been here since the Big Bang and Iranians can't be ancestors of Germanics, because it isn't possible for them to emerge from Iranians. IE is a fantasy as, just as every language family/grouping.

OK, it's getting ridiculous now, I think we should quit posting for good. It's got so far that thanks to Cyrus it's impossible to have anything that would even from 6546789765432456789765432 light years resemble reasonable discussion.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 06:58
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
They can't!
 
I think their logic is that in the 4th century AD Saxons came from the sky to the Germanic lands and Alans or other Iranian peoples never put their feet on this holy land!!! They probably flew over Germany when they reached the northern France in this century!!!
 
 
Nobody speaks of falling from sky. I said evolved within older cultures, languages, ethnoi. Where are your archaeological artefacts that show groups of Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Saka, Persians, Armenians, Ossetians - have I forgotten anyone ? - settled in Germany?  Where, where, where? Anything else but Vettersfelde (which is not Scythian, indeed)? You're playing with some linguistic hypotheses. Don't playing games with us. and don't accuse us of being nationalistic, especially you shouldn't accuse Slovakians of being Germanic nationalists. So if your willing to show me archaeological evidence I am willing to talk with you about this, but if not, discuss with yourself.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 17:41

beorna, what do you think about what Sharrukin said in Ancient Poland:

Originally posted by Sharrukin

The "Serbs" mostly likely were an Alano-Sarmatic group which, under Hunnic rule, controlled the greater part of Poland and eastern Germany, and like the Antae, gave their name to another division of the Slavs.  Perhaps it was these late Alanic groups with Hunnic support which drove the Germanic tribes further south and which subsequently allowed the Slavic tribes to take over sometime after.
 
Sorbs still live in Germany, don't they? About Sorbs in Germany: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sorbs
 
The Sorbs are a Slavic minority indigenous to the region known as Lusatia in the current German states of Saxony and Brandenburg (in former GDR territory).
 
 
Serboi is the name of the ancient Sarmatian tribe that could be the possible predecessors of the present-day Slavic Serbs and Sorbs.
 
The tribal designation Serboi first appears in the 1st century, in the works of the historian Tacitus (ca. 50 AD) and geographer Pliny (Plinius) (69-75 AD), and also in the 2nd century in the Geography of Ptolemy (book 5, 9.21) to designate a tribe dwelling in Sarmatia, probably on the Lower Volga River.
 
As you see the map shows almost the same path of migration of Alans from the northwest of the Caspian sea to the modern Germany and then from there to Serbia, in fact different Iranian peoples and even non-Iranian people, like Volga-Bulgarians (of course they could be originaly an Iranian people too) migrated from this region to Europe. Why not their Saxi (Saksin) neighbours to Saxony (Sachsen)?
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 18:02
Neither Sorbian nor Bulgarian are subgroups of Turkic or Iranian or whatever. And Volga-Bulgars didn't migrate to Bulgaria.

Edited by Slayertplsko - 16-Jan-2009 at 18:10
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 18:40

Slayertplsko, do you know why numerous words in the Ingvaeonic languages are of unknown origin?!!

I had mentioned it:
 
 
boar Look up boar at Dictionary.com
O.E. bar, from W.Gmc. *bairaz, of unknown origin with no cognates outside W.Gmc. Applied to persons of boar-like character in M.E.

What is the Persian word? Just search for the word "boar":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar Baraz, yes? Isn't it similar to W.Gmc. *bairaz?

Lets see some other words begin with the letter "b":
 
 
besom Look up besom at Dictionary.com
O.E. besma "bundle of twigs" (used as a broom or a flail), from W.Gmc. *besmon (cf. O.Fris. besma, Ger. besen, Du. bezem), of unknown origin.

Ossetic bersom? yes? Should I explain more?

 
The word Barsam is derived from the Avestan word Baresman which comes from the root barez meaning to grow. In earlier times Barsam was prepared from the twigs of any suitable plant (3,4). Yasna XXV appears to associate Barsam with the twigs of Haoma plant (5). Dadestan-I-Dinik refers (6) to Barsam as ‘vegetable sacred twigs’. According to Darmesteter in ancient times the twigs could have been of the pomegranate, date, tamarind or any tree that are plucked with ceremonial observances (7). Since the exodus of Zarathushtis to India, use of plant twigs as Barsam was modified and replaced with metal wires.
 
 
brass Look up brass at Dictionary.com
O.E. bræs, originally an alloy of copper and tin (now bronze), in modern use an alloy of two parts copper, one part zinc. A mystery word, with no known cognates beyond Eng.

Middle Persain Brangs, Modern Persian Brinj, no?

You know the origin of the word Bronze which can be found in the most European languages:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-bronze.html 

ORIGIN: mid 17th cent. (as a verb): from French bronze (noun), bronzer (verb), from Italian bronzo, probably from Persian birinj ‘brass.’

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=bird&searchmode=none

bird (1) Look up bird at Dictionary.com

O.E. bridd, originally "young bird" (the usual O.E. for "bird" being fugol), of uncertain origin with no cognates in any other Gmc. language.

The origin of the word is obvious, the Persian word for "to fly", Pridan/Bridan -> http://sartre2.byu.edu/persian/pvc/pvc.php?verb=paridan don't you think so?

I can mentiond hundred words of of unknown origin in the Ingvaeonic languages that most of them are the same as the Iranian words, shouldn't there be any reason for it?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 16-Jan-2009 at 18:47
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I can mentiond hundred words of of unknown origin in the Ingvaeonic languages that most of them are the same as the Iranian words, shouldn't there be any reason for it?


No, there needn't be any reason. Similarities are expected, due to simple maths, they are absolutely normal - if any two languages don't have similar words, then it's getting strange. We have discussed those words, they don't support you at all.

And now you're changing your theory again. Ingvaeonic doesn't support Irano-Germanic nonsense.

Why am I wasting my time with someone who knows nothing about Germanic languages and has no idea about phonetics?Confused


Edited by Slayertplsko - 16-Jan-2009 at 19:09
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 19:26
No, there needn't be any reason.
Because logic has no meaning for you!
 
Similarities are expected, due to simple maths, they are absolutely normal - if any two languages don't have similar words, then it's getting strange.
No, it won't be strange, if you know the reason.
 
Another word which begins with the letter "b":
 
 
butter Look up butter at Dictionary.com
O.E. butere, from a W.Gmc. source (cf. Ger. Butter, Du. boter), an early loan-word from L. butyrum "butter," from Gk. boutyron, perhaps lit. "cow-cheese," from bous "ox, cow" + tyros "cheese;" but this may be a folk-etymology of a Scythian word.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 16-Jan-2009 at 19:39
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And now you're changing your theory again. Ingvaeonic doesn't support Irano-Germanic nonsense.
I just want to prove that Saxons were the same Scythians.
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Because logic has no meaning for you!


It does. But you have problems with logics and don't understand phonetics - how dare you even if you don't bother to study some basic concepts??

So according to you, Chinese and English are related, so Germanic languages are subgroup of Sino-Tibetan, right??

baba 'daddy' papa

bai 'white' fair (in color)

ban 'remove' ban

bao 'luxuriant foliage' bough

bei 'low, vulgar, mean' base

bei 'passive marker' by

beihou 'behind' behind

bengdai 'bandage' bandage

bi 'pen' bic, biro

bu 'book' book

chang 'sing' chant

chao 'stir-fry' chow

chi 'eat' chew

dadu 'bet' debt

dage ren '12 people' dozen

dai 'put on' tie 'fasten'

dan 'dawn' dawn

dao 'to' to

dei 'must' duty, due

dun 'ton' ton

er 'ear' ear

fazi 'way, means' fashion

fei 'fly' fly

feibo 'shabby, trifling' feeble

feishi 'troublesome, fussy' fussy

gang 'work collectively' gang 'group'

gei 'give' give

gouhe 'gully' gully

gu (W-G ku) 'cow' cow

guizi 'devil' ghost

guo 'pass through' go

hao 'hero' hero

hong 'hum of crowd' hum

huran 'suddenly' hurrying

ji 'mock' jeer

jiemei 'sisters' geminate

jueding 'decide' judge

junfa 'warlord' junta

kan 'read' ken

ken 'willing' can

keneng 'possible' can

kouyu 'spoken language' koine 'common language'

kuai 'fast' quick

kusi 'very similar' quasi

lazhu 'hold fast' lasso

lei 'flower bud' lei 'flower necklace'

lian 'connect' line

lianxi 'contact' link

libie 'leave' leave

long 'dragon' lion

long 'grand' long

loulie 'base, mean' lowly

luedi 'conquer' loot

ma 'mother' Ma

ma 'horse' mare

manbu 'stroll' mambo

meili 'beauty' mellifluous

meiju 'enumerate' measure

mian 'face' mien

miao 'mewing' mew, miaow

moter 'model' model

mubing 'raise troops' mobilize

mutong 'shepherd' mutton

nanti 'difficult, baffling' knotty

naiyou 'cream' mayo

pan 'plate' pan

paxiu 'shy' bashful

pei 'match, pair' pair

pei 'compensate' pay

po 'pour' pour

sha 'shark' shark

shafa 'sofa' sofa

shan 'mountain' (mountain) chain

shangai 'correct' change

shange 'folk song' song

shei 'who' she '3p fem. pron.'

shenti 'health' sanity

shezhi 'arrange, put' schedule

shechi 'shooting' shoot

shenshi 'gentleman' gentry

shi 'eat' chew

shi (pron. shr) 'true, real' sure

shi 'Mrs, Madam' she

shi 'see, examine' see

shifu 'master, expert' chief

shiming 'mission' scheme

shu 'school' school

shuo 'say, tell' show

si 'silk' silk

song 'give, send' send

songge 'ballad' song

soucha 'search' search

sunzi 'grandson' son

tamen 'they, them' them

tai 'too' too

ti 'tear' tear

tie 'stick on' tie

tou 'throw' throw

toupi 'deep' deep

wei 'weft' weft

weida 'great' wide

wen 'lukewarm' warm

yun 'iron' iron

xi 'drama, play' show

xiang 'sound' sound

xin 'suffering' sin

xinshi 'new style' ginchy

zeguo 'wetlands' soggy

zhuan 'turn' turn
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What you're doing is mass lexical comparison - a method by which you can ''prove'' relation between almost unlimited choice of languages. Read this article:
http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm
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OK, now enough of that. I'm leaving it at that and am not willing to continue the debate. Farewell.
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**In case anybody wants to notice, the Saxon/Scythian thread has been moved to Alternative History. I figured to let members on this thread know just in case you all were wondering.

Edited by Seko - 16-Jan-2009 at 21:34
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

beorna, what do you think about what Sharrukin said in Ancient Poland:

Originally posted by Sharrukin

The "Serbs" mostly likely were an Alano-Sarmatic group which, under Hunnic rule, controlled the greater part of Poland and eastern Germany, and like the Antae, gave their name to another division of the Slavs.  Perhaps it was these late Alanic groups with Hunnic support which drove the Germanic tribes further south and which subsequently allowed the Slavic tribes to take over sometime after.
Perhaps you red it all. Sharrukin gives a completely wrong time for the Serbian rule. First of all we cannot be sure that Serbs and Sorbs are one single tribe. But if they are of one origin, then they probably went from the Balkans through the Elbe Bassin. It is difficult to say when this happened, probably around 600.
They origin of the Serbs is unclear. There are voices that call them and the Croatians of Iranian origin. But neither for Serbs nor for Croatians a Iranian language is shown. As long as we here about them they are part of the Slav migration and Slav speaking. I can't say there were no Indo-Iranian or Alano-Sarmatian influence at all at the Serbs and I am convinced that especially the Antes have strong Sarmatian influence but to call the Serbs an Alano-Sarmatic group is till now unprooved.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Sorbs still live in Germany, don't they? About Sorbs in Germany: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sorbs
Yes, they do. But what does it have to do with the Saxons. As I wrote above, the Slavs came to the Elbe region after 600 AD and to the coastal area about 700. Even the Oder and Vistula area wasn't touched before 450 AD.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The Sorbs are a Slavic minority indigenous to the region known as Lusatia in the current German states of Saxony and Brandenburg (in former GDR territory).
 
Hmm, I suppose you want to show me that the Iranian Serbs nowadays live in Saxony. So you create a connection between Sharrukins Iranian Serbs and your Iranian Saxons? The state of saxony, the former Kingdom has, unfortunately for you, nothing to do with the Old Saxons. The name Saxon moved from a western area between Rhine and Lower Elbe to the Dresden/Meißen area. There was no Saxon migration, no Saxon conquest towards the modern Saxony. The Old Saxons lived in Lowersaxony, Westphalia, Sachsen-Anhalt and Schleswig-Holstein. There was a migration of Lower German population towards Branddenburg and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Serboi is the name of the ancient Sarmatian tribe that could be the possible predecessors of the present-day Slavic Serbs and Sorbs
Yes, it is possible. But the Serbs weren't identical at all with those Sarmatians when they were mentioned in Serbia and Middle Germany. And if you look above to my Saxon example, then you must see that even the Serbian name could have moved without any ethnic relation.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The tribal designation Serboi first appears in the 1st century, in the works of the historian Tacitus (ca. 50 AD) and geographer Pliny (Plinius) (69-75 AD), and also in the 2nd century in the Geography of Ptolemy (book 5, 9.21) to designate a tribe dwelling in Sarmatia, probably on the Lower Volga River
Can you tell me please where in Tacitusd and Pliny.
 
[QUOTE=Cyrus Shahmiri]As you see the map shows almost the same path of migration of Alans from the northwest of the Caspian sea to the modern Germany and then from there to Serbia, in fact different Iranian peoples and even non-Iranian people, like Volga-Bulgarians (of course they could be originaly an Iranian people too) migrated from this region to Europe. Why not their Saxi (Saksin) neighbours to Saxony (Sachsen)?
Because we have no archaeological evidence for such a migration, because all Steppe nations settled in the Hungaro-Romanian steppe area and nowhere else, because the Saxons didn't move to the Old Saxon, because Saxon is a term for  several Germanic groups, North Sea Germanics, Rhine-Weser-Germanics and Elbgermanic and perhaps North Germanics too. Because your Saxony has nothing to do with the Old Saxons.
 
That is exactly what I told you. You have no idea of Germanic or German history. You just pick up some words. No you don't proof them. If you can use them, why prooving! And you put them into your beautiful picture you have of the Saxons. You wrote: You want to proof that Saxons are Scythians. That's exactly your greatest mistake. You want, you want, you want. But the Old Saxons don't want.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 12:40
Slayertplsko, it is good that you know the most of Chinese words that you mentioned, could be just loanwords from Iranian and Tocharian languages. Some Iranian tribes, such as Wakhis, Ainus, Sarikolis, ... still live in the different regions of China.
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It is very interesting to read it: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-10-X.html
 
Lets read part of it:
 
When asked he counted thus: Ita, tua, tria, fyuf, seis, sevene, just as we Flemings do. For you men of Brabant, who fancy that you speak German, are accustomed to magnify yourselves and take us for a joke, if we should pronounce horribly what you say as Seuen.
 
He continued from there Athe, nyne, thiine, thiinita, thunetua, thunetria, etc. He said stega for 'twenty', treithyen for 'thirty', furdeithien for 'forty', sada for 'one hundred', hazer for 'one thousand'. Moreover he recited a song from this language, whose beginning was like this:
 
Wara wara ingdolou
Seu te gira Galtzou
Hoemisclep dorbiza ea.
 
What are these words? Iranian or Germanic? The authors says "Whether these be Goths or Saxons is not possible to discern."
 
 
I said Germanic and Iranian languages belong to none of them (Centum and Satem languages) but Hunda langauges and Slayertplsko replied:
 
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Hunda languages?? LOL. Isn't the Persian word for hundred 'sad'?
 
and I said:
 
What does it prove? Isn't the proto-Germanic word for "thousand" *thusundi (Thu-Sundi) which means "several hundred": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=thousand&searchmode=none and the Old Persian word for "thousand" with the same meaning is Hadar (Avestan Hazar)?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Jan-2009 at 14:37
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I found an interesting map from 200 AD here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov

It seems Gothic language could have a strong influence on the Saksin language two centuries before their migration to Germany, of course Iranian Iazyges were in the south of the Germanic lands in this period too.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Jan-2009 at 15:19
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(I have idit this maessage because I forgot to add some info)
First of Cyrus you have proven to me that linguistics is not your strongest side.
 
And mass lexial compairasion IS NOT linguistical science
 
Here is a list of varited langauges of diffrent linguistical groups and langauges some close related some completly far of. IT is easy to prove anything with lexical compairasion so it is not consider linguistical science.
''
Chinese  ren     'person'

Quechua  runa    'person'



Chinese  ch'ung  'insect'

Quechua  chinchi 'type of insect'

English  chigger



Chinese  shui    'water'

Quechua  sut'u   'wet'

French   suée    'sweat'

Greek    hudor   'water'

Dutch    schuit  'boat'

Turkish  su      'water'



Chinese  shuohua 'talk'

Quechua  suka    'whistle'

French   charler 'chat'



Chinese  lao     'old'

Quechua  laqla   'old'

Tok Psn. lapun   'old'



Chinese  nai     'breast'

Quechua  ñuñu    'breast'

French   néné    'breast'

Bulgar.  nenka   'breast'



Chinese  sheng   'rise'

Quechua  seqay   'rise'



Chinese  cheh    'this'

Quechua  chay    'that'

French   ce      'this/that'



Chinese  chihfan 'eat'

Quechua  chipay  'close mouth'

French   chef    'cook'



Chinese  chung   'middle'

Quechua  chawpi  'center'

Italian centro 'center' (c = ch)




Chinese  ti      'earth'

Quechua  tiksimuyu 'earth'

Spanish  tierra  'earth'



Chinese  ch'ing  'please'

Quechua  hinay   'do thus'



Chinese  wang    'king'

Quechua  waminqa 'chief'



Chinese  you     'again'

Quechua  yapa    'addition'

Spanish  ya      'already'



Chinese  kung    'work'

Quechua  kunay   'carry'

English  gung-ho 'eager to work'



Chinese  ch'uan  'river'

Quechua  chumay  'dip in water'

Spanish  chupar  'drink, suck'

Dutch    schoon  'clean'



Chinese  lai     'come'

Quechua  riy     'go'

French   aller   'go'



Chinese  ai      'love'

Quechua  ayni    'mutual help'

French   aimer   'love'



Chinese  san     'mountain'

Quechua  senqa   'mountain peak'

French   chaîne  'mountain range'



Chinese  nü      'woman'

Quechua  ñusta   'princess'

Dutch    nuf     'aloof girl'

Greek    (gy)ne  'woman'

Latin    (femi)na'woman'

French   nana    'woman'

German   -in     fem. suffix



Chinese  ma      'mother'

Quechua  mama    'mother'

French   maman   'mother'



Chinese  nan     'difficult'

Quechua  nanaq   'painful'



Chinese  kei     'give'

Quechua  qoy     'give'

Scots    gie     'give'
''

Languages that truly are related can have congantes that are not similear in sound,
Here with English and Hindi
 
''cakka:       wheel

pa:nch       five

si:~g        horn

chah         six

pissu:       flea ''
 
 
One can also look at the Germanic to find the same , Swedish jord and English earth are related but because of diffrent they are no longer prounounced the same.
 


Edited by Some - 17-Jan-2009 at 18:31
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