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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 00:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There were different Scythian/Saca tribes with different names, or better to say different suffixes, for instance, Strabo mentions one of them in the east with the name of "Sacarauli" and another one in the west which can be called the greatest one, "Sacasene". They migrated from the north to the northwest of Iran, conquered the Median empire and several other lands and reached the borders of Egypt. They were first mentioned by Assyrians as Ashkuz and by Jews as Ashkenaz, it is interesting to know that afterwards Jews gave this name to Germany.
The Middle Persian name of this people was Sakzi and in Modern Persian Sagzi (read about it in Shahnameh: http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm), I think it is clear that there was certainly a "z" or "s" sound after "k", it is even possible that we see the word "Saka" in the Old Persian texts just because there was no "z" sound in the Old Persian language.
The only Scythian inscription that Some mentioned in this thread and several other Scythian objects and buildings have been found near a city in the northwest of Iran with the name "Sakkez/Saqqez" that archaeologists and historians believe to be the capital of Scythian Empire in the 7th century BC, and we see a land in the north of Black Sea which is said to be their original land, is called "Saksin/Saqsin" in almost all Islamic sources.
And the Britons like to call Germans Huns and we call the native Americans still Indians, so what? The Ashkenazi comparisation is nonsense. And again, the term Saxon is not the term for a single nation. I'll repeat myself untill you understand it. It is a number of different tribes or robbing groups that were called Saxons by their enemies not by themselves. Only later they used the term by themselves. It is the same with the German name. Germans didn't call themselves German, they used it later but the term was not succesful and there are even more examples. So if the Saxons were Sakas, why did others call them so but not the Saxons themselves?
Scythian cultures reached from the Hungarian plains to the Tuva region. But Scythian cultures doesn't mean they were one nation or shared only one language. Scythians are usually only the people west of Don and North of the Black Sea. Your city Saqqez is outside this area. And BTW what did Islamic sources know about the Scythians. The earliest islamic sources can come from the 7th century AD, probably later. And they knew about the Scythians in the 7th century BC?
But would you tell me about archaeological sites of scythian culture in the area between the Maas/Marne rivers and the Vistula river. Perhaps you would be so kind to give me the exact date of those first Scythian invasion and the regions they met, with the archaeological sources that show the truth of your idea.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 13:52
I searched the word "Scythian" in this book: http://books.google.com/books?id=o6HuH4jT20AC&dq=Scythian&q=Scythian&pgis=1
 
The Journal of Indo-European Studies
 
This is something that I found:
 
 
Do you know the reason why all these books talk about just a common origin between Persian and Germanic languages, not other Indo-European languages?
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 14:06
Of course. The reason is that those 18th century and 17th century (respectively) authors claimed so, and the chapters are about them and the history of IE studies - what's so strange about it?? Boxhorn, who called the proto-language ''Scythian'' lived in 17thcen., Elichmann, who proposed that European and Indo-Iranian (not only Germanic and Persian, these were apparently just two examples) languages are related lived in the same century and finally there is Jones, who considered Sanskrit to be the proto-language. Those were earlier theories that were refuted, the book refers to them.

Edited by Slayertplsko - 11-Jan-2009 at 14:09
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 15:23
Do you think until the last century all IE studies were just about Germanic and Persian languages, not about other Indo-European languages? Do you believe that they didn't find any similarity between Germanic and Celtic, Baltic, Italic, Slavic, Greek and other European langauges but just Persian because they didn't know those ones? What are the modern IE studies which show Germanic languages differ from the Persian? Is it enough to study just about the Germanic languages and create some laws about them to prove Germanic and Persian languages didn't relate to each other?
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 16:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Do you think until the last century all IE studies were just about Germanic and Persian languages, not about other Indo-European languages?


No, you burbled about only Persian and Germanic. You brought it up, so what are you trying to do now?? Deny what you said earlier this day??

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Do you believe that they didn't find any similarity between Germanic and Celtic, Baltic, Italic, Slavic, Greek and other European langauges but just Persian because they didn't know those ones?


See above.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

What are the modern IE studies which show Germanic languages differ from the Persian? Is it enough to study just about the Germanic languages and create some laws about them to prove Germanic and Persian languages didn't relate to each other?


No, it's not. You need to know both branches - but the IE linguistics does know both branches, you know. It's been you who came with new theory without knowing anything about the Germanic branch - that was pretty obvious to anyone who read your early claims. You only knew English and somehow seemed to have supposed that all other Germanic languages are just like that. In the beginning, your point was that Saxon wasn't similar to Germanic languages, but Persian - again, don't try to fool us, the statements are there.

So now I'm gonna ask: is it sufficient to study only Iranian languages without bothering to do some research on Germanic but still postulating some Irano-Germanic theory??


Edited by Slayertplsko - 11-Jan-2009 at 16:13
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 19:20
I think it is very difficult to study Iranian languages and particularly talk about a proto-Iranian language, for example, as Some mentioned here, for the word "One", in the Iranian language we have:

Avestan ae:uua
Bactrian io:go
Saka+ s's'au
Ishkashmi uk
Parachi zhu
Khunsari yäg
Semnani i
Ormuri so:

What could be the proto-Iranian word for "one"? Can you find any similarity between these words? or for "two" there are Pashto dwa, Wakhi bu, Munji lu, ... what can be said about the sound changes in the Iranian languages?
 
You never see this diversity in the Germanic languages and the important point is that all Germanic sound changes could occur in the Iranian languages too, especially Western Iranian languages, so it doesn't sound strange that Germanic was originally an Iranian language.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 19:57
It does sound very strange, dear friend.

dwa, dva, do, bu, lu - only one possible consonant that has all features of the mentioned (labialisation, voicedness, alveolar place of articulation): dʷ.

[dʷ] can of course become [dw] and [dv] because of its labialisation and alveolar quality, but it can also become [ b] because of its labialisation (see PIE [gʷ] shifted to in Baltic and PIE [kʷ] to [ p] in Greek), and also [ l] because both are alveolar.

[ l] is perhaps less likely to become [d], but impossible to become [ b] and [dw].
Likewise, [ l] is improbable to shift to [ b] and so on.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 11-Jan-2009 at 20:31
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 20:29
As for the number one, there were more than one words in PIE for it.

Back to number two. There are three Iranian languages, which do not have a [d] sound there: Wakhi has [ b] and Yighda and Munji have [ l] - 90% of Iranian languages retain this [d] sound. Of course, majority can't be used as an argument alone - Polish is the only Slavic language that has nasal vowels, but in fact, it's the only language that still retains them, all other Slavic languages lost them. But since the argument that PIr word had [dw] sound in the word is backed up by phonetic probability, other claims are out of question.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 20:33
It seems there is a problem with the forum code. Phonetics uses /C/ sign for a phoneme and [C] sign for a phone. But since [] are often used in the code, we'll have to change the sign for a phone to (C). Do you agree or do you perhaps have any other suggestions?
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2009 at 22:41
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think it is very difficult to study Iranian languages and particularly talk about a proto-Iranian language, for example, as Some mentioned here, for the word "One", in the Iranian language we have:

Avestan ae:uua
Bactrian io:go
Saka+ s's'au
Ishkashmi uk
Parachi zhu
Khunsari yäg
Semnani i
Ormuri so:

What could be the proto-Iranian word for "one"? Can you find any similarity between these words? or for "two" there are Pashto dwa, Wakhi bu, Munji lu, ... what can be said about the sound changes in the Iranian languages?
 
You never see this diversity in the Germanic languages and the important point is that all Germanic sound changes could occur in the Iranian languages too, especially Western Iranian languages, so it doesn't sound strange that Germanic was originally an Iranian language.
 
Cyrus linguist look for common innovations and reflexes of earlier forms. We can see that Proto-Germanic and Proto-Iranian or even Proto-Indo-Iranian have preserved different aspects of PIE it can be all from grammatical to the treatment of velars to ablaut that Germanic hade preserved in a more complex form called Umlaut these days in Germanic sense.

They also of course see similar themes they go after for an example Germanic languages are known for a  larger vowel inventories then most other languages .

Modern Standard Danish has 20 vowels and if I remember correct if you would count diphthongs as well you get 30 around vowels , English has 12 vowels Swedish 18 vowels , German if I remember right has a very large number by 22 vowel sounds? Discounting the diphthongs. And Dutch 13 vowels.

Compare Persian has 6 vowels plus 2 diphthongs ...Pashto 7 pure monothongs vowels but a fair share of diphthongs not even close to the number Germanic languages have. Kurdish that have 10 vowels is still a large number how ever.

Also this large vowel inventories are of great use in ablaut that have important part in Greek and in Germanic but have become more complex in Germanic

In Gothic

greípan – gráip – gripum – gripans

swiltan – swalt – swultum – swultans

Icelandic

grípa – greip – gripum – gripinn

svelta – svalt – sultum – soltinn

Swedish

gripa – grep – gripit – gripen

svälta – svalt – svultit – svulten

Also it seem that Germanic came from the Corded Ware dialects and Iranian from Yamna.

All love.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Some - 12-Jan-2009 at 19:23
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 07:00
About the word "two", I think it could be originally "zu" which has been changed to "du" in Persian (z->d), in the most cases we see proto-IE "d" is chanded to "t" in Persian, the first Persian word beginning with "t" alphabetically is ta which means "to" (az Iran ta Alman=from Iran to Germany), you know in other Indo-European languages, even Avestan, it begins with the letter "d".
The avestan word for tree is "dar" (Persian "drakht" comes from this word) but almost all related words in Persian such as "tir" (timber, wood), "takht" (board), ... begin with "t".

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Jan-2009 at 12:45
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 08:16
It can't be (z) because it lacks labialisation, due to which you can't explain Wakhi 'bu'. The only possible explanation is either labialised d or plain d followed by labiovelar.

What do you mean 'most words'? I don't get that expression.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 08:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The avestan word for tree is "dar" (Persian "drakht" comes from this word)


If you say that draxt comes from dar, then it hasn't changed to (t), right?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

but almost all related words in Persian such as "tir" (timber, wood), "takht" (board), ... begin with "t".


I don't know how taxt is related at all apart from semantics. My Persian etymologic dictionary says tir is related to Avestan tighri.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 13:48
Originally posted by Some

They also of course see similar themes they go after for an example Germanic languages are known large vowel inventories most other languages .

Modern Standard Danish has 20 vowels and if I remember correct if you would count diphthongs as well you get 30 around vowels , English has 12 vowels Swedish 18 vowels , German if I remember right has a very large number by 22 vowel sounds? Discounting the diphthongs. And Dutch 13 vowels.

Compare Persian has 6 vowels plus 2 diphthongs ...Pashto 7 pure monothongs vowels but a fair share of diphthongs not even close to the number Germanic languages have. Kurdish that have 10 vowels is still a large number how ever.

Also this large vowel inventories are of great use in ablaut that have important part in Greek and in Germanic but have become more complex in Germanic

In Gothic

greípan – gráip – gripum – gripans

swiltan – swalt – swultum – swultans

Icelandic

grípa – greip – gripum – gripinn

svelta – svalt – sultum – soltinn

Swedish

gripa – grep – gripit – gripen

svälta – svalt – svultit – svulten

Also it seem that Germanic came from the Corded Ware dialects and Iranian from Yamna.

All love. 

What is your purpose for comparing modern Iranian and Germanic languages, you certainly know that the Old Iranian languages, like Avestan, had also a large number of vowels and diphthongs (more than 20).
 
We had discussed about Ablaut in the Iranian languages.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Jan-2009 at 13:49
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 15:13
Avestan had only five monophtongal vocalic phonemes: a, e, i, o, u (and the long forms) - occasionally schwa. Old Persian had only three: a, i, u. Anything else??

Edited by Slayertplsko - 12-Jan-2009 at 15:13
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 16:48
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The avestan word for tree is "dar" (Persian "drakht" comes from this word)


If you say that draxt comes from dar, then it hasn't changed to (t), right?
There is no reason that a loanword is changed. 

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

but almost all related words in Persian such as "tir" (timber, wood), "takht" (board), ... begin with "t".


I don't know how taxt is related at all apart from semantics. My Persian etymologic dictionary says tir is related to Avestan tighri.
Persian/Avestan draxt actually means "small tree" (dar/dra + diminutive suffix "-xt"), you remember our discussion about Middle Persian Knixt and Old English Cniht (boy/girl, servant, knight). Modern Persian "dar" and "tir" are synonym, so "taxt" could be in fact "traxt" (small timber).
Avestan tighri relates to Modern Persian "tigh" (thorn) or "tiz" (sharp), of course Persian "tir/tyr" also means "arrow" (the rune of Tyr, god of war).


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 12-Jan-2009 at 17:05
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 17:18
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Avestan had only five monophtongal vocalic phonemes: a, e, i, o, u (and the long forms) - occasionally schwa. Old Persian had only three: a, i, u. Anything else??
Only five!! what is your source?!! There are 16 vowels just in the Avestan alphabet.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 17:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Avestan had only five monophtongal vocalic phonemes: a, e, i, o, u (and the long forms) - occasionally schwa. Old Persian had only three: a, i, u. Anything else??
Only five!! what is your source?!! There are 16 vowels just in the Avestan alphabet.


http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/aveol-1-X.html#Ave01_GP02_01


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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 17:24
And now your sources for last three posts.Smile
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2009 at 17:29
With the potential risk of being banned for trolling, let me summarize the virtual
content of the last 60 pages:
 
 
 
It's Cyrus on the left...
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