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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 13:12
Armin is Latin. 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 13:35
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Armin is Latin. 
source please.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 13:45
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Armin is Latin. 
source please.

Well, for example, the link you posted. "German given name, the modern form of Arminius". Arminius is the Latin name of a German leader, whose native name is unknown.

Before you start comparing names (which is also completely meaningless), please go back and answer the old posts that you have ignored.
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 15:14
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Anyway, why was the thread moved here again?
I don't know why it was moved or by whom, but I am moving it back to the Linguistics forum since the discussion is linguistics based.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 16:33
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, you believe what Slayertplsko says: "The ancestors of Germanic peoples arrived at Scandinavia in 3rd millennium BC." or what your Britannica says:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/231026/Germanic-languages

Archaeological evidence suggests that about 750 bc a relatively uniform Germanic people was located in southern Scandinavia and along the North Sea and Baltic coasts from what is now The Netherlands to the Vistula River. By roughly 250 bc they had spread south, and five general groups are distinguishable: North Germanic in southern Scandinavia, excluding Jutland; North Sea Germanic, along the North Sea and in Jutland; Rhine-Weser Germanic, along the middle Rhine and Weser; Elbe Germanic, along the middle Elbe; and East Germanic, between the middle Oder and the Vistula rivers.

It also says "The earliest historical evidence for Germanic is provided by isolated words and names recorded by Latin authors beginning in the 1st century bc."

Question



Cyrus, I'm not even gonna comment this. I've got tired of your constant misinterpretations of your own sources. If you can't understand what you copy here, then there is no discussion.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 16:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

What were these earliest Germanic names? Can we discuss about them?
 
For example one of them is Armin:
 
 
  • a German given name (German hero; leader at the battle of Teutoburger Wald in AD 9 (circa 18 BC - AD 19))
  • a Persian given name, a son of Kavadh I (one of the Greatest ancient Persian king of Kings)
 


And this isn't worth a comment either.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Armin is Latin. 
source please.

Well, for example, the link you posted. "German given name, the modern form of Arminius". Arminius is the Latin name of a German leader, whose native name is unknown.
Your own link says "Arminius" is a Latinized variant of the Germanic name Irmin meaning "great", I'm sure you know the differences between Latinized names and Latin names.
 
Before you start comparing names (which is also completely meaningless), please go back and answer the old posts that you have ignored.
I have answered all of them, however no one has answerd my numerous questions in this thread.
 
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 17:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, you believe what Slayertplsko says: "The ancestors of Germanic peoples arrived at Scandinavia in 3rd millennium BC." or what your Britannica says:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/231026/Germanic-languages

Archaeological evidence suggests that about 750 bc a relatively uniform Germanic people was located in southern Scandinavia and along the North Sea and Baltic coasts from what is now The Netherlands to the Vistula River. By roughly 250 bc they had spread south, and five general groups are distinguishable: North Germanic in southern Scandinavia, excluding Jutland; North Sea Germanic, along the North Sea and in Jutland; Rhine-Weser Germanic, along the middle Rhine and Weser; Elbe Germanic, along the middle Elbe; and East Germanic, between the middle Oder and the Vistula rivers.

It also says "The earliest historical evidence for Germanic is provided by isolated words and names recorded by Latin authors beginning in the 1st century bc."

Question

What they mean is the direct evidence of Germanic speaking people . How ever in pure archeologically sense we started far earlier then that see a new culture in sour then parts of Scandinavia that did not seem to be the same as the megalith culture. This is believed by many to be the ancestors of the Germanic people or late dialectal IE speaking people. If the Corded Ware was a Indo-European speaking horizon then the tribes living in Scandinavia became Germanic those to the east became Baltic and Slavic and those in western parts of Europe became Italic and Celtic this is just one of many theories that I have read. Some believe that some IE tribes to a rather cold route and eventually settled in Europe.. probably passing trough Finno-Ugric tribes and Finnic and Germanic hade contact logically with each other trough loan words and some have argued that the Germanic stress might have develop from influence of Finno-Ugric that always have it on the first syllable and culture. And many more theories how ever Cyrus no one speaks of such an illogical argumentation and theory you have.

This old Germanic culture was very characteristically with all the burial mounds like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gravh%C3%B6g_G%C3%A5rdst%C3%A5nga.jpg

and germanic mythology such as the horse dragging chariot with the sun in.

The Germanic people might have started to move out south according to wikiepdia.

''The Nordic Bronze Age was characterized by a warm climate that began with a climate change circa 2700 BC (comparable to that of present-day Mediterranean). The warm climate permitted a relatively dense population and good farming, for example grapes were grown in Scandinavia at this time. However a small change in climate between 850 BC and 760 BC and a more radical one circa 650 BC brought in a deteriorating, wetter and colder climate (sometimes believed to have given rise to the legend of the Fimbulwinter).It seems likely that the climate pushed the Germanic tribes southwards into continental Europe. During this time there was Scandinavian influence in Eastern Europe (and a thousand years later, the numerous East Germanic tribes that claimed Scandinavian origins (e.g. Langobards, Burgundians, Goths and Heruls) rendered Scandinavia (Scandza) the name womb of nations in Jordanes' Getica).

In fact, the Scandinavian influence on Pomerania and northern Poland from period III onwards was so considerable that this region is sometimes included in the Nordic Bronze Age culture (Dabrowski 1989:73).

Due to the climate change and the loss of population, the Nordic countries are generally described as going through a cultural recession at the end of the Bronze Age, lasting for a thousand years until the rise of another advanced civilization in the so-called Viking Age.''

Also now back to linguistics. You see you just ignore every dot of evidence we come with.

I mean acording to you Iranian also went trough grimms law and lol... I mean count to number 5 in Persian and count to number five in Germanic language and you will hopefully get what I mean.

You also seem to ignore how Proto-Germanic connects with PIE and also how very rational Iranian connects to Indic. And the fact that all IE languages have similarities.

And you say you answer all questions.. what a load of lies from you Cyrus you run from arguments. And reaped the same crap over and over again leading us to repeat ourselves over and over again.

One thing you have not answered is that you do not use the comparative method but cling on to a rather amateur lexical. comparison that is easy to do with all IE languages without taking respect to the phonological history, time depth, morphologic history and does not take respect to loans and is highly populist and is very often used by people who want to group the IE languages with a nationalistic flavour as you want.

Read THIS LINK for more in depth explanation http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 18:17
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Your own link says "Arminius" is a Latinized variant of the Germanic name Irmin meaning "great", I'm sure you know the differences between Latinized names and Latin names.
Which in common speech means that Armin is Latin and Irmin is Germanic. If you want to do etymologies, you have to start with the Germanic forms of the name. Is like comparing Cyrus with Cymru, ignoring what are the real source of these names. Wink
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 19:41
Cyrus, I'm not even gonna comment this. I've got tired of your constant misinterpretations of your own sources. If you can't understand what you copy here, then there is no discussion.
I try to understand that 3rd millennium BC is the same 750 BC but I can't!!
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 19:59
This old Germanic culture was very characteristically with all the burial mounds like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gravh%C3%B6g_G%C3%A5rdst%C3%A5nga.jpg 
It seems you want to help me to prove that Germanic culture certainly related to Iranian culture.
 
It is called Kurgan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan (compare your pic to that Sarmatian Kurgan)
 
In fact building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Iranian peoples, especiall Scythians.
 
 
Through kurgan burial mounds, chronicles of Herodotus, and peoples like the Ossatians, evidence of the Scythians remain of interest to scholars and archaeologists.
© Kerry Kubilius
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 20:34
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Your own link says "Arminius" is a Latinized variant of the Germanic name Irmin meaning "great", I'm sure you know the differences between Latinized names and Latin names.
Which in common speech means that Armin is Latin and Irmin is Germanic. If you want to do etymologies, you have to start with the Germanic forms of the name. Is like comparing Cyrus with Cymru, ignoring what are the real source of these names. Wink
What about their meanings?
 
I believe the correct Germanic word was neither Armin, nor Irmin, but "Airyamin/Airyaman".
 
A good article about Irmin by Crandall: http://www.geocities.com/xthanex/Irminsul_101.doc (It is possible that Irmin developed out of Germanic exposure to the western Iranian tribes and their god Airyaman.)
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 20:38
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This old Germanic culture was very characteristically with all the burial mounds like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gravh%C3%B6g_G%C3%A5rdst%C3%A5nga.jpg 
It seems you want to help me to prove that Germanic culture certainly related to Iranian culture.
 
It is called Kurgan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan (compare your pic to that Sarmatian Kurgan)
 
In fact building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Iranian peoples, especiall Scythians.
 
 
Through kurgan burial mounds, chronicles of Herodotus, and peoples like the Ossatians, evidence of the Scythians remain of interest to scholars and archaeologists.
© Kerry Kubilius
 
Well you awnserd one smal part of my message at least.. but not the whole picture or larger arguments that you cannot argue against. Kurgans have been build by other very unrealted cultures like Turks. But many see the spread of Kurgans as the spread of Indo-European tribes.  So it is an old IE tradition it seems. Using your logic one could be an ingorant person and say that Turks and Indo-Iranian are closley linguisticaly realeted. And is there any other part od my message that your capable of givn a counter argument?
Most old IE cultures  used Tumulus or Burial mounds or Kurgans . For an example Slavic cultur also did. But also variaous non IE cultures like Etruscan for an example
 
Proto Germanic seems to be the sucsseser in the north of the Corded Ware culture of IE dialects aka Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture . And Iranian or Indo-Iranian seems to have nothing to do with it what so ever. How ever do you as I say wish to try to counter other parts of my message. The parts that cover linguistics
 
 
 


Edited by Some - 20-Nov-2008 at 20:52
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 20:51
 
The first exploration of Irmin as an individual being, shall revolve around the concept of anthropogeny; this is the view that Irmin (along with his brothers) is one of the founders of the human race, or at least of the Teutonic people.

We can begin by looking at the works of Tacitus,

Germania 2
“In their ancient songs, which are their only records or annals, they celebrate the god Tuisco, sprung from the earth, and his son Mannus, as the fathers and founders of their race. To Mannus they ascribe three sons, from whose names the people bordering on the ocean are called Ingaevones; those inhabiting the central parts, Herminones; the rest, Iscaevones."

Moving outside of the Teutonic tradition we find an almost identical tale is told by Herodotus regarding the ancestry of the Scythians. Here a man named Targitaus (a son of Jove) begat three sons; Leipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais.

- Herodotus. History, Book IV, verses 5-7. (ed. A. D. Godley)
“V. The Scythians say that their nation is the youngest in the world, and that it came into being in this way. A man whose name was Targitaus appeared in this country, which was then desolate. They say that his parents were Zeus and a daughter of the Borysthenes river [aka the Dnieper] (I do not believe the story, but it is told). Such was Targitaus' lineage; and he had three sons: Lipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais, youngest of the three."

A further Iranian correlate has been suggested (by Alexander Stolbov on the cybalist PIE linguistics group).

In the Shahnameh & Bundahishn, the tale is told that Feridun (aka Thraetaona), at the end of his life, divides his kingdom to his three sons; Salm, Tur (Tug), and Iraj (Airik). Iraj was Feridun’s youngest and favored son and inherited the best part of the kingdom namely Iran. Salm inherited Asia Minor (the West) and Tur inherited Central Asia (Turan to the east), respectively.

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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 21:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Cyrus, I'm not even gonna comment this. I've got tired of your constant misinterpretations of your own sources. If you can't understand what you copy here, then there is no discussion.
I try to understand that 3rd millennium BC is the same 750 BC but I can't!!


Why should it be?? You still can't understand what your own source says?? It's getting pathetic now.
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 21:05
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
The first exploration of Irmin as an individual being, shall revolve around the concept of anthropogeny; this is the view that Irmin (along with his brothers) is one of the founders of the human race, or at least of the Teutonic people.

We can begin by looking at the works of Tacitus,

Germania 2
“In their ancient songs, which are their only records or annals, they celebrate the god Tuisco, sprung from the earth, and his son Mannus, as the fathers and founders of their race. To Mannus they ascribe three sons, from whose names the people bordering on the ocean are called Ingaevones; those inhabiting the central parts, Herminones; the rest, Iscaevones."

Moving outside of the Teutonic tradition we find an almost identical tale is told by Herodotus regarding the ancestry of the Scythians. Here a man named Targitaus (a son of Jove) begat three sons; Leipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais.

- Herodotus. History, Book IV, verses 5-7. (ed. A. D. Godley)
“V. The Scythians say that their nation is the youngest in the world, and that it came into being in this way. A man whose name was Targitaus appeared in this country, which was then desolate. They say that his parents were Zeus and a daughter of the Borysthenes river [aka the Dnieper] (I do not believe the story, but it is told). Such was Targitaus' lineage; and he had three sons: Lipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais, youngest of the three."

A further Iranian correlate has been suggested (by Alexander Stolbov on the cybalist PIE linguistics group).

In the Shahnameh & Bundahishn, the tale is told that Feridun (aka Thraetaona), at the end of his life, divides his kingdom to his three sons; Salm, Tur (Tug), and Iraj (Airik). Iraj was Feridun’s youngest and favored son and inherited the best part of the kingdom namely Iran. Salm inherited Asia Minor (the West) and Tur inherited Central Asia (Turan to the east), respectively.

 
Sorry that I do to replies with such a smal time beetwen them. But I have to say that this does not prove anything just becasue two stories are similear. It is like saying that Germanic and Indic are very close just because both of them talk about a world tree for an example  Yggdrasil an ash tree  in Norse pagan faith and a Banjan tree in India, in Lithuanian mythology Jievaras, and an oak tree in Slavic mythology, and a hazel tree in Celtic mythology
 
 


Edited by Some - 20-Nov-2008 at 21:15
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 21:07
I'll give you a chance not to get laughed at and go back to your source to grasp what it says. If you fail, then I'll explain your own source to you.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 21:57
New words are coming

   Old Persian  *   Persian  * German

1. Kheresh       * khoresht   * kersh

http://www.kennedyandkate.com/m-197-kersh-sweaters-cardigans-cashmere-clothing.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoresht

2. Doch       *  Doosh      * Dutch

    Doush     * Dooch      *  Douche

Basically Doosh or Dooch means shower in Persian and Germany has many water falls which people used to take a shower in those places, they caledl them Dooshland and time changed, it turned to Dutchland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche
http://www.anvari.org/fun/Farsi/Rashti_Dictionary.html

3.   Adellefe   * Adel  * Adolf




Edited by Suren - 20-Nov-2008 at 22:00
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 22:09
Originally posted by Some

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This old Germanic culture was very characteristically with all the burial mounds like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gravh%C3%B6g_G%C3%A5rdst%C3%A5nga.jpg 
It seems you want to help me to prove that Germanic culture certainly related to Iranian culture.
 
It is called Kurgan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan (compare your pic to that Sarmatian Kurgan)
 
In fact building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Iranian peoples, especiall Scythians.
 
 
Through kurgan burial mounds, chronicles of Herodotus, and peoples like the Ossatians, evidence of the Scythians remain of interest to scholars and archaeologists.
© Kerry Kubilius
 
Well you awnserd one smal part of my message at least.. but not the whole picture or larger arguments that you cannot argue against. Kurgans have been build by other very unrealted cultures like Turks. But many see the spread of Kurgans as the spread of Indo-European tribes.  So it is an old IE tradition it seems. Using your logic one could be an ingorant person and say that Turks and Indo-Iranian are closley linguisticaly realeted. And is there any other part od my message that your capable of givn a counter argument?
Most old IE cultures  used Tumulus or Burial mounds or Kurgans . For an example Slavic cultur also did. But also variaous non IE cultures like Etruscan for an example
 
Proto Germanic seems to be the sucsseser in the north of the Corded Ware culture of IE dialects aka Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture . And Iranian or Indo-Iranian seems to have nothing to do with it what so ever. How ever do you as I say wish to try to counter other parts of my message. The parts that cover linguistics
 
There were certainly some relations between Iranian and Turkish architecture in the Central Asia, it is obvious that when Turks captured Scythian lands, they used Scythian Kurgans as a model for building their burial mounds, just as they served Hagia Sophia as a model for many of the Turkish mosques in Istanbul.
 
It is very difficult to discuss with an Azeri Turk about Azeribaijan (their land) because they believe at least in the last millenium Azerbaijan has been always the land of Azeris, so you can hardly prove that Azeris were the last Turkic peoples who settled in Azerbaijan because they, according to their nationalist bias, consider Oghuz, Khalaj, Turkmen and all other Turkic peoples who lived in Azerbaijan as Azeri. Apparentely it can be said about Germanic peoples too!!
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 23:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Some

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This old Germanic culture was very characteristically with all the burial mounds like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gravh%C3%B6g_G%C3%A5rdst%C3%A5nga.jpg 
It seems you want to help me to prove that Germanic culture certainly related to Iranian culture.
 
It is called Kurgan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan (compare your pic to that Sarmatian Kurgan)
 
In fact building burial mounds was one of the main characteristics of Iranian peoples, especiall Scythians.
 
 
Through kurgan burial mounds, chronicles of Herodotus, and peoples like the Ossatians, evidence of the Scythians remain of interest to scholars and archaeologists.
© Kerry Kubilius
 
Well you awnserd one smal part of my message at least.. but not the whole picture or larger arguments that you cannot argue against. Kurgans have been build by other very unrealted cultures like Turks. But many see the spread of Kurgans as the spread of Indo-European tribes.  So it is an old IE tradition it seems. Using your logic one could be an ingorant person and say that Turks and Indo-Iranian are closley linguisticaly realeted. And is there any other part od my message that your capable of givn a counter argument?
Most old IE cultures  used Tumulus or Burial mounds or Kurgans . For an example Slavic cultur also did. But also variaous non IE cultures like Etruscan for an example
 
Proto Germanic seems to be the sucsseser in the north of the Corded Ware culture of IE dialects aka Battle Axe culture or Single Grave culture . And Iranian or Indo-Iranian seems to have nothing to do with it what so ever. How ever do you as I say wish to try to counter other parts of my message. The parts that cover linguistics
 
There were certainly some relations between Iranian and Turkish architecture in the Central Asia, it is obvious that when Turks captured Scythian lands, they used Scythian Kurgans as a model for building their burial mounds, just as they served Hagia Sophia as a model for many of the Turkish mosques in Istanbul.
 
It is very difficult to discuss with an Azeri Turk about Azeribaijan (their land) because they believe at least in the last millenium Azerbaijan has been always the land of Azeris, so you can hardly prove that Azeris were the last Turkic peoples who settled in Azerbaijan because they, according to their nationalist bias, consider Oghuz, Khalaj, Turkmen and all other Turkic peoples who lived in Azerbaijan as Azeri. Apparentely it can be said about Germanic peoples too!!
 
I am going to repost tommorrow somethings I want you to awnser but first.  Do you mean that I am for an example nationalist biased? And I can say that I am not I am just giving the evidence and you cannot conter them and when you try to prove your claim in for example linguistics you deny proof and you use the wrong method in ordert o prove relations. Second of all you run from ertain arguments and points we make because you cannot counter them. Here you make it sound like kurgans or Tumulus are particalary Iranian when most old IE cultures used them. Who is nationalist biased? You of course.
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