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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:25
Would someone please compare some Germanic and Iranian words with other Indo-European words, for example English "First" and Persian "Farest" or the Persian words "Beh" (good) , "Behter" (Better) and "Behest" (Best). I think it certainly help to know Iranian and Germanic have the same origin or just an Indo-European origin alongside other Indo-European languages.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:29
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Would someone please compare some Germanic and Iranian words with other Indo-European words, for example English "First" and Persian "Farest" or the Persian words "Beh" (good) , "Behter" (Better) and "Behest" (Best). I think it certainly help to know Iranian and Germanic have the same origin or just an Indo-European origin alongside other Indo-European languages.

Don't start these irrelevant comparisons again. Adress Some's posts instead.

By the way, did you search for the linguists I mentioned? I suggest you read some of their works. And if you're still convinced on your ideas, why don't you try to contact them?


Edited by Styrbiorn - 18-Nov-2008 at 17:31
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:34
Old Iranian language had an extensively inflected grammar, with eight cases, each declension subject to both gender - masculine, feminine, neuter - and number - singular, plural, dual. but "The dual number found in the Avestan dialects seems to have fallen into disuse by Old Persian times."


Sounds pretty much like Slavic, definitely much more like Slavic than Germanic. The only thing not found in Slavic (at least as far as I know) is the ablative case. Otherwise, it has extensively inflected grammar - seven cases, three genders, three numbers. The dual number has later fallen into disuse. And we have a problem here: Germanic languages had the dual number at least until 1,000 A.D. (Old Norse for instance), similar with Slavic. And as you say, Old Persian didn't use it.


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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 18:35

Don't start these irrelevant comparisons again. Adress Some's posts instead.

Why? She also doesn't use these irrelevant comparisons (!!) and talks about Germanic languages separately, the interesting thing is she thinks a long description of the Germanic languages can mean No Relation between Iranian and Germanic languages!!

By the way, did you search for the linguists I mentioned? I suggest you read some of their works. And if you're still convinced on your ideas, why don't you try to contact them?

I have just read some works of Diakonoff who unfortunately died about 10 years ago, I don't think he knew much about the Germanic languages, did he? and I doubt other ones that you mentioned know much about the Iranian languages, do you know anyone that I can speak with him in Persian?

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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 19:09
Can you speak with me in Deutsch? Or with Styr and Some in Svenska?
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 19:34
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Why? She also doesn't use these irrelevant comparisons (!!) and talks about Germanic languages separately, the interesting thing is she thinks a long description of the Germanic languages can mean No Relation between Iranian and Germanic languages!!

Because she makes relevant comparisons. You don't. Popping up words that happens to be similar - sometimes also by inventing or changing them! - doesn't mean anything without following their history and comparing with all other IE languages as well. You need to compare structure and development of languages: this is what Some did, and all serious linguists who is trying to branch the languages.

I have just read some works of Diakonoff who unfortunately died about 10 years ago, I don't think he knew much about the Germanic languages, did he? and I doubt other ones that you mentioned know much about the Iranian languages, do you know anyone that I can speak with him in Persian?


Which works did you read?

Instead of avoiding the topic, I suggest you to read some of their works (they have contradicting ideas) to get acquianted with the topic. I really don't think you know it very well, it's just a part of your fix idea to link Iranians with Northern Europe. At least read this site: http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/articles/ieorigins/nature.jpg for an introduction. Take note of the diagram showing a branch chart, and remember it's backed up by word-comparisons as well, something you should appreciate :)


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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 20:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Why? She also doesn't use these irrelevant comparisons (!!) and talks about Germanic languages separately, the interesting thing is she thinks a long description of the Germanic languages can mean No Relation between Iranian and Germanic languages!!


The interesting thing is that you think a few in sound and script similar, albeit unrelated and sometimes changed words can mean Germanic is a subgroup of the Iranian languages.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 20:10
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I have just read some works of Diakonoff who unfortunately died about 10 years ago, I don't think he knew much about the Germanic languages, did he? and I doubt other ones that you mentioned know much about the Iranian languages, do you know anyone that I can speak with him in Persian?


Oh my ______ (fill in the blank), you're quick! Styr gave you the names just yesterday.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 00:15
Everyone just agree with Cyrus so we can all go home.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 14:27

Sounds pretty much like Slavic, definitely much more like Slavic than Germanic.

I think it was common among all Old Indo-European languages, not just a special characteristic of Iranian languages to be more like Slavic or Germanic language, for a good comparison, please compare Slavic words with the Geramnic and Iranian words which I mentioned.

The dual number has later fallen into disuse. And we have a problem here: Germanic languages had the dual number at least until 1,000 A.D. (Old Norse for instance), similar with Slavic. And as you say, Old Persian didn't use it.

It then says "except instances of natural pairs, e.g., gausha 'ears'", so it was still used in the Old Persian, in fatc the process was started in the Old Persian times but it seems it took more time in the Germanic language.

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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 16:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Sounds pretty much like Slavic, definitely much more like Slavic than Germanic.

I think it was common among all Old Indo-European languages, not just a special characteristic of Iranian languages to be more like Slavic or Germanic language, for a good comparison, please compare Slavic words with the Geramnic and Iranian words which I mentioned.

The dual number has later fallen into disuse. And we have a problem here: Germanic languages had the dual number at least until 1,000 A.D. (Old Norse for instance), similar with Slavic. And as you say, Old Persian didn't use it.

It then says "except instances of natural pairs, e.g., gausha 'ears'", so it was still used in the Old Persian, in fatc the process was started in the Old Persian times but it seems it took more time in the Germanic language.

 

First of all I hope you know that Slavic languages and Germanic share more vocabulary then Indo-Iranian or Iranian. And also I wonder if you have read anything we have told because you recycle the same bullshit over and over leading to recycle my arguments over and over again I am starting to have enough of it. And it seems that no matter how much proof you get against you will not change or even think that you can be wrong.

Just because you would find some words that are similar (that you can do it all IE languages) and even to languages so far away with each other that we don't know how far it is. You doing amateur mass-lexical comparison not even mass in your case. You try to prove your claims and to prove and language family you have to use comparative method and logically explain how one language became another one and also how they connect culturaly, evolutionary I have given you examples of how Germanic connects to PIE and you have not answer because you cannot counter does professional linguistically evidence.

Do not just pick random words and bullshit a little and try to prove anything read this for more info http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm

Second I found acording to a source I found while searching around in Google I found this if you wonder if there is any debate with Germanic being part of a larger IE branch well this is what I found.

''Nowadays it is not yet evident whether Germanic used to be a part of Germano-Balto-Slavic community or it was closely connected with other Indo-European language groups. Many linguists fairly find Germanic parallelisms in Armenian (mostly in phonetics), Greek, Italo-Celtic, Tocharian languages. It is a so-called "centum" language, for Indo-European *k turned into Germanic k, while in Balto-Slavic it appeares as s or [sh], so they are considered "satem" languages. But still much evidence is found about Germanic close relation with Baltic and Slavic groups, both in morphology and vocabulary.

Germanic vocabulary is quite and quite Indo-European. Only about 30% of words are not found in any other Indo-European groups. Germanic words have cognates in Baltic, Slavic, Italic, Celtic, Venetic, Illyrian, Indic languages, and it is impossible to detect the closest language by these numerous cognates. ''

So Cyrus just as I have said and as this info shows you can find similarities between Germanic and all other Indo-European languages. Because they all come from Proto-Indo-European.

Linguistical cultrual evidence show that Iranian is part of Indo-Iranian for an example Avestan and Sanskrit are very similar only some changes separated Indic and Iranianfor an example Indic languages kept the aspirated voiced plosives while Iranian lost them. Iranian kept *z While Indic lost it. For an very simple example. Also cultural evidence in religion can also be found.

Personally I don't know why you want to prove this but you are starting to get ridiculous and we can see that you try to do all you can to run or ignore or just take some parts of my and Slayer and Styrbiorn and the everybody else’s posts.

In a sense I think you have already lost Cyrus.. but your way to stubborn to admit that you gott far from evidence for your claims.

All love and respect from some girl from Sweden

 


Edited by Some - 19-Nov-2008 at 17:04
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 19:49

Some, it seems you have absolutely nothing to say, except "Iranian is part of Indo-Iranian", "Germanic vocabulary is quite Indo-European", ... nothing will be proved, if you repeat what you have learnt in your primary school One Million times!! These are not the words and inspirations of God, I think should expand your mind and think a little about other possibilities. You see that modern neighbours of Germanic peoples are Slavic and Baltic peoples, so you think Germanic could be part of Germano-Balto-Slavic community (it seems as if you see modern Greece and Turkey and talk about Greco-Turkish languages!!) If you look at an ancient map, you will see that in the same region where modern Slavic peoples already live, in the ancient times Iranian peoples, such as Sarmatians, Scythians, .. lived. I have mentioned several times in this thread that Strabo, Pliny and almost all other ancient historians even talk about an Iranian presence in modern Germanic lands, so it is very difficult to say some peoples who lived in this region were either Iranian or Germanic, there is already a long discussion in this thread: Ancient Poland that Vistula Veneti were an Iranian or Geramic people. You can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti The Vistula Veneti (alternatively also called the Baltic Veneti) were an ancient Indo-European people living in contemporary Poland. Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.

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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 21:24
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, it seems you have absolutely nothing to say, except "Iranian is part of Indo-Iranian", "Germanic vocabulary is quite Indo-European", ... nothing will be proved, if you repeat what you have learnt in your primary school One Million times!! These are not the words and inspirations of God, I think should expand your mind and think a little about other possibilities. You see that modern neighbours of Germanic peoples are Slavic and Baltic peoples, so you think Germanic could be part of Germano-Balto-Slavic community (it seems as if you see modern Greece and Turkey and talk about Greco-Turkish languages!!) If you look at an ancient map, you will see that in the same region where modern Slavic peoples already live, in the ancient times Iranian peoples, such as Sarmatians, Scythians, .. lived. I have mentioned several times in this thread that Strabo, Pliny and almost all other ancient historians even talk about an Iranian presence in modern Germanic lands, so it is very difficult to say some peoples who lived in this region were either Iranian or Germanic, there is already a long discussion in this thread: Ancient Poland that Vistula Veneti were an Iranian or Geramic people. You can read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti The Vistula Veneti (alternatively also called the Baltic Veneti) were an ancient Indo-European people living in contemporary Poland. Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.

 

First of you are misquoting me I am not suporter of Germano-Slavic but as crazy that branch can be it still do not break points that slavic langauges are closer to Germanic then Iranian according to linguists and I also as I said quoted a website in the subject. It wasn’t one my words and the point that came out of it is that Germanic has similarities with all IE languages to various degree as they said Armenian share some phonological characteristics of Germanic and Armenian just for an example.

Again as I said you misquote seems that you cannot take an entire debate. So I will repost one part that you still have not answered.

''Just because you would find some words that are similar (that you can do it all IE languages) and even to languages so far away with each other that we don't know how far it is. You doing amateur mass-lexical comparison not even mass in your case. You try to prove your claims and to prove and language family you have to use comparative method and logically explain how one language became another one and also how they connect culturally, evolutionary I have given you examples of how Germanic connects to PIE and you have not answer because you cannot counter does professional linguistically evidence.

Do not just pick random words and bullshit a little and try to prove anything read this for more info http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm ''

Comparative method is what branches languages not loosely mass-lexical comparison where you take certain words that are a little similar and try to prove something. That does not take respect to, linguist evolution, culture ,time depth.

The fact of the matter is that you jump on details because you cannot prove your claim.

And Indo-Iranian is a well studied linguist family that clearly shows close relations between them both linguistically ,historically, culturally.

And yes I am open for new ideas that make sense. Not your rather ignorant claims.

And also I would never ever suggest a Turkish-Greek linguist family.

I am very open. But I think I have delivered by showing studies done by the comparative method on how proto-Germanic evolution connects to logically to PIE. And also how Germanic culture in older times do not connect well with Iranian culture such as religion but connects perfect with indic.

And you say that I repeat myself.. you know why? Because YOU constantly bring the same arguments and constantly do your comparison that lacks any true meaning. It seems like you ignore are arguments are facts and bring stupid counters like Europeans just cannot understand Iranian languages.... well there are many Linguists who are experts at IE language and bring a life time to learn in order to make our understanding of PIE and the relations better and you think you know more then them? Here come you with amateur comparison mixed with nationalism and Iranian pride you seem to have (Calling yourself Cyrus make me think of old Persia) .

And you tell me to be open.. well you have already decided that your right your running from arguments or important parts because you cannot disprove them.. your just trying to exhaust us in till we admit and agree.  

Germanic langauges have one way or another allways been close to Uralic languages or Finno-Ugric. You can find loans in Finnish for an example from old Germanic langauges Finnish Kuningas  is a Germanic loan still the langauges are complety unrelated sure as hell does not prove anything at all so even if your arguments of pure neighbour was true it does not prove anything.. Might have been loand from Proto-Norse(Most probebly) or maybe even Proto-Germanic . And Old Iranians where mostly mostly in western parts of Asia inthill Turkish people and other. And if they where in Europe it was mostly to the eastern parts od Europe not central and north where most Germanic languages are spoken unless you count away Gothic that was the now extint east germanic langauges,
 
So Cyrus can you honestly debate? Or Do you want to play your game of disorienting the big picture in my messages and my points


Edited by Some - 19-Nov-2008 at 21:47
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2008 at 21:54
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You see that modern neighbours of Germanic peoples are Slavic and Baltic peoples, so you think Germanic could be part of Germano-Balto-Slavic community


The ancestors of Germanic peoples arrived at Scandinavia in 3rd millennium BC. The Iranians formed thousands of miles away in late 2nd millennium BC.

Only in the late 1st millennium BC and early 1st millennium AD some Germanic tribes neighboured some Iranian peoples. Before this time, there was no neighbourhood, but there always was neighbourhood with Balts and Slavs.

So if Germanic peoples are related to Iranians because of the fact that they neighboured each other for a relatively short time (compared to others), the Germanic are related to Eskimo-Aleut, Finno-Ugric, Italic, Celtic, Bantu, Austro-Asiatic and Afro-Asiatic.

The Greeko-Turkic argument relates to your theory, not Some's.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 06:39
Those who are truly asleep can be awakened but those who pretend to sleep cannot!
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 07:06
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Those who are truly asleep can be awakened but those who pretend to sleep cannot!
 
 
That was a despreate and very catchy catchprhase Cyrus. But I see you could not argue against the facts that Slayertplsko gave you.  If you want I can give a more complex descriptions on how Indo-European tribes came to scandinavia and how you can see trough archology that a new culture had started to come in sourthen scandinavia.
 
I see you refuse to take Slayers arguments I see you refuse take all my arguments for an example the problem the amatuear way and method you trying to use to prove your claim.  Your a coward Cyrus
 
You refuse to even aknowlage the phonological history and morphological history that I posted for an example would not matter if I disproved what you siad by saying count to five i 3 Iranian langauges and you will see that number 3 and number 5 is so far from Germanic that it is ridicoucolous claims you come up with but if the most complex explanation I don't think kindergarden explanation can help either.
 
I want you to try to take on Slayers argument... if you cannot or try to take on my arguments that you have refused to awsner like the amatuear lexical compairasion you try to use. Then we have allready won because you cannot disprove this because you have no arguments to do so...
 
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 09:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Those who are truly asleep can be awakened but those who pretend to sleep cannot!


...and they lived happily till death did them apart. That's all folks! Taadidaaadidaaadidaaa.Smile
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 09:51
Anyway, why was the thread moved here again?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 12:18

Some, you believe what Slayertplsko says: "The ancestors of Germanic peoples arrived at Scandinavia in 3rd millennium BC." or what your Britannica says:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/231026/Germanic-languages

Archaeological evidence suggests that about 750 bc a relatively uniform Germanic people was located in southern Scandinavia and along the North Sea and Baltic coasts from what is now The Netherlands to the Vistula River. By roughly 250 bc they had spread south, and five general groups are distinguishable: North Germanic in southern Scandinavia, excluding Jutland; North Sea Germanic, along the North Sea and in Jutland; Rhine-Weser Germanic, along the middle Rhine and Weser; Elbe Germanic, along the middle Elbe; and East Germanic, between the middle Oder and the Vistula rivers.

It also says "The earliest historical evidence for Germanic is provided by isolated words and names recorded by Latin authors beginning in the 1st century bc."

Question

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2008 at 13:08
What were these earliest Germanic names? Can we discuss about them?
 
For example one of them is Armin:
 
 
  • a German given name (German hero; leader at the battle of Teutoburger Wald in AD 9 (circa 18 BC - AD 19))
  • a Persian given name, a son of Kavadh I (one of the Greatest ancient Persian king of Kings)
 
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