Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 3031323334 72>
Author
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 13:42

There were really some great European scholars who were expert in the Iranian languages in the 19th century when Old Persian language was deciphered, Sharon Turner was just one of them, another one that I can mention is "John Fitzgerald Pennie".

Britain's Historical Drama By John Fitzgerald Pennie, Read this book here

Lets read part of his book:

"There are numerous words in the Persian language which are, in sound and signification, precisely the same in the old English ; we will only instance one: Witten-a-gemote, which, in both tongues, literally means a national assembly. Huet says, the German language bears a great affinity to the Persian. The cause of this may be imputed to their common origin from the Scythians." Pennie's Historical Drama, 530

You can read there that he had also a great knowledge of the Indic, Celtic, Italic, Slavic and other Indo-European languages.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Nov-2008 at 13:56
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 15:45
Whence have you got the idea Sharon Turner was expert on Iranian and Germanic??
Could you give me a reference for Persian witten-a-gemote and explain the meaning and morphology of the word??

Pennie was a playwright! Not a linguist or a historian. And where can I find the quote you put here in the book?? Which page?? The search function doesn't work and it's quite a magnum opus.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Nov-2008 at 15:55
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 16:15
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There were really some great European scholars who were expert in the Iranian languages in the 19th century when Old Persian language was deciphered, Sharon Turner was just one of them, another one that I can mention is "John Fitzgerald Pennie".

Britain's Historical Drama By John Fitzgerald Pennie, Read this book here

Lets read part of his book:

"There are numerous words in the Persian language which are, in sound and signification, precisely the same in the old English ; we will only instance one: Witten-a-gemote, which, in both tongues, literally means a national assembly. Huet says, the German language bears a great affinity to the Persian. The cause of this may be imputed to their common origin from the Scythians." Pennie's Historical Drama, 530

You can read there that he had also a great knowledge of the Indic, Celtic, Italic, Slavic and other Indo-European languages.
 
First of all have you read my latest extremly long message where it was info on how Proto-Germanic connects to PIE? Why have you not even comment on it? Is it that you cannot refute professional modern day lingiust indo-european works?
 
Also even if you would find words that are similear(that you can do with all indo-european branches if one spends time) does not prove close relationship. In order to prove relationship one must use the comparative method  and explain how one langauge alterd to another langauge and be able to explain the evolotuion logical as my last message show we can se logical how PIE became PG. What you use is a lame amatur form of mass lexical comparison
and that system have alot of critiq because with it is easly for people to claim that far away distant langauges are close with one another and that it does take respect to loan words or time deepth phonological change.
Here you can find the problems with the method http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm 
 
All love
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 16:25
Originally posted by Some

Here you can find the problems with the method http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm 
Great reading! Thanks!
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 17:30
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
I think I said it ironically, otherwise I wouldn't say "the despised Iranian langauges"!

I understand, but that implies that you insinuate those who do not agree with you have some racist opinions about Persians. Please don't think that.

 
Who are these linguists that you are talking about? I'm sure you don't consider Sharon Turnor and some other ones who were expert in both Iranian and Germanic languages as linguists, but just some modern European linguists who don't know the differnces between Iranian verbs and nouns!! I met one of them in Iran, the interesting thing was that he called himself an Iranologist!!!

Sharon Turner is no linguist. He has as much credibility on Germanic languages as has Nazi historians. We've discussed him at least twice before. Some more modern suggestions of reading, linguists and archaeologists specialising in the subject:

Igor Diakonov
Russel Gray
John A Hawkins
Colin Renfrew

Also, a suggestion of a more mordern approach at creating the branches: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118842398/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 17:35
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Also, a suggestion of a more mordern approach at creating the branches: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118842398/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


The site doesn't load.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 18:37

Whence have you got the idea Sharon Turner was expert on Iranian and Germanic??

I read his book about the Anglo-Saxons.

Could you give me a reference for Persian witten-a-gemote and explain the meaning and morphology of the word??

You know about its Old English origin: witen pl. of wita ‘wise man’ + gemite ‘meeting’

We have an Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm

Vaêd/Vid = to know & Vaêthâ/Vita = knowledge/wise

I said here:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Cyrus, that noun declension please!! Choose any noun you want.

 
Contrary to Old Persian, it is very simple in Modern Persian.
 
Singular: Irani (Iranian)
Plural: Iranian (Iranians) [-an in Persian = -s in English]

Therefore "Witan/Witen" can be certainly pl. of wita 'wise man' in Persian too.

You can read in that Avestan Dictionary that "mith" means "to meet, to live together"

And I said here:

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Anyway, don't confuse 'ear' in the meaning of 'sense of hearing' and in the meaning of 'organ of hearing'.

Good mention, Hosh means "sense of hearing" and "perception" in Persian, then we have "Gahosh" which mean "organ of hearing", ok I found the prefix/suffix, that is "Ga(h)-" or "-ga(h)" which means "time/place/organ", as a suffix you can find numerous words in Persian, another example can be "Zvan" (Zaban) which means "sense of speech" and then Zvanga = tongue -> German Zunge.

Therefore "Gamit/Gemit" can mean "Meeting Place/Assembly" in Persian.

Pennie was a playwright! Not a linguist or a historian. And where can I find the quote you put here in the book?? Which page??

I gave the link: Pennie's Historical Drama, 530 Look at the bottom of the page.

Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 20:03
I'm not asking you for the possibilities, but for reference - a text with the word 'witena gemot' included. The same can be done with Slavic - 'ved-' root refers to wisdom, knowledge.

Thanks for the link, it didn't load in Opera so I downloaded it, and now I tried Explorer, and it worked.

As for his expertise, I can't see it. Just as I read the paragraphs above, a typical mistake of the 19th century ''experts'' couldn't be unnoticed - Asamal=language of Asian since Asa=Asians. We have already discussed the myth of Odin's origin created by the Christian Snorri, which has nothing to do with Norse mythology. But what's worse is the immediate link of Asa with Asians, that is for me something incomprehensible. It's like saying that 'chin' and 'China' are cognates.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 20:19
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

As you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule Yule is also called "Jõulud", and as you know "J" here is pronounced like 'Y' in English.


That's Estonian and they borrowed the word from Swedish jul - or already in the old norse days, if the Estonian wikipedia is to be trusted. Where is your source to "Yulalda"? If you took it from there, it's not a source - than you made it up. You can't change spellings and add letters as you please just to fit your theory. You're going to get laughed at if you try something like that in a serious journal (this is a friendly advice - don't do that, ever Smile).

Anyhow, I'd like you to adress Some's long post, which is the most to the point and thorough treatment in this thread. We can play with word till we die, but it will still not prove a thing.


Slayer: The link was to an article titled "Cladistic analysis of languages: Indo-European classification based on lexicostatistical data", authors Rexova et al.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 17-Nov-2008 at 20:26
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 21:28

I understand, but that implies that you insinuate those who do not agree with you have some racist opinions about Persians. Please don't think that.

I don't think so, but what is the purpose of those who are here to be just not agree with me?

Sharon Turner is no linguist. He has as much credibility on Germanic languages as has Nazi historians. We've discussed him at least twice before. Some more modern suggestions of reading, linguists and archaeologists specialising in the subject:

Igor Diakonov
Russel Gray
John A Hawkins
Colin Renfrew

Also, a suggestion of a more mordern approach at creating the branches: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118842398/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


Was Sharon Turner at least a native English speaker? Is it possible that one becomes expert in other languages but knows nothing about his own language?

Would you please tell us what those linguists and archaeologists that you mentioned, say about Iranian and Germanic languages? I have read Diakonov's History of Media, he mentions some relations between Iranian and Germanic languages there.



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 17-Nov-2008 at 21:29
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 21:31
I'm not asking you for the possibilities, but for reference - a text with the word 'witena gemot' included. The same can be done with Slavic - 'ved-' root refers to wisdom, knowledge.

You asked me to explain the meaning and morphology of the word and I did it.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 21:56
Was Sharon Turner at least a native English speaker? Is it possible that one becomes expert in other languages but knows nothing about his own language?


Turner wasn't a native speaker of any language other than Modern English. He wasn't a native speaker of Old English, neither of Old Saxon nor other Germanic languages.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 21:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I'm not asking you for the possibilities, but for reference - a text with the word 'witena gemot' included. The same can be done with Slavic - 'ved-' root refers to wisdom, knowledge.

You asked me to explain the meaning and morphology of the word and I did it.


And for reference.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 22:38
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I'm not asking you for the possibilities, but for reference - a text with the word 'witena gemot' included. The same can be done with Slavic - 'ved-' root refers to wisdom, knowledge.

You asked me to explain the meaning and morphology of the word and I did it.
 
I see that you have started to ingore my messages.. well can't be part of the debate any longer if you can't refute my last larger message where I took info from Britannica encyclopedia  and showed that what you say about Iranian stress is untrue how we know trough comparitive method how Proto-Germanic connects to PIE and I guess you cannot refute does claims.
 
And you have not awnser my latest smaler message about the fallacy of the amature mass lexical compairasion you do.. a rather flawd way on proving close relations and more.
 
If you wish to ingore me then it says alot about you. But as I said it is not possible for me to debate if you allways ingore my replies.
 
All love
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2008 at 22:46
I have to agree with Some. Until you do what he asks you for, I quit replying to your posts, Cyrus.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 07:22
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

I have to agree with Some. Until you do what he asks you for, I quit replying to your posts, Cyrus.
 
Don't want to be picky but I am a girl :P So she would be correct :)
 
All love
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061
  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 08:37
Oh, sorry, I didn't know.Smile
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 14:17

What a threat! Confused

Some, Have you asked yourself how they know about the pronunciation of the Old Persian words in about 2,500 years ago? Whenas no one still knows even the meanings of some Old Persian words.

As you read here: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~iranian/OldPersian/OPers2_Lessons01_7.pdf "We do not know the rules for Old Persian stress, but some rules may be formulated from comparison with other Iranian languages and Indic."

So they have accepted it as fact that Old Persian belonged to Indo-Iranian languages and not Irano-Germanic, as you read in the above link, in this case they wonder why numerous Persian words don't follow their rules, one of the given examples is the Old Persian word Xshayathiya which becomes Xshath in the Middle Persian and then Shah (xsh -> sh & th -> h) in the Modern Persian language, similar to Proto-Germanic *kuningaz (king).

Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 168
  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 15:46
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

What a threat! Confused

Some, Have you asked yourself how they know about the pronunciation of the Old Persian words in about 2,500 years ago? Whenas no one still knows even the meanings of some Old Persian words.

As you read here: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~iranian/OldPersian/OPers2_Lessons01_7.pdf "We do not know the rules for Old Persian stress, but some rules may be formulated from comparison with other Iranian languages and Indic."

So they have accepted it as fact that Old Persian belonged to Indo-Iranian languages and not Irano-Germanic, as you read in the above link, in this case they wonder why numerous Persian words don't follow their rules, one of the given examples is the Old Persian word Xshayathiya which becomes Xshath in the Middle Persian and then Shah (xsh -> sh & th -> h) in the Modern Persian language, similar to Proto-Germanic *kuningaz (king).

 
First of all whern it comes to kuningaz I don't see or hear to much similearities with Xshayathiya. Second of all what I gave you an explenation on how the in general Iranian accent where then took some  profesional info from Britannica and that is either primary stress on the last syllable or a more or less free accented stress system and no mattwe what it still debunks your claims that Iranian langauges have the Germanic stress.
 
 And also I showed you trough that info how Proto-Germanic sound laws and accent evolutionary connects with PIE all from accent to grammer to phenomes.
Since you have not given an awsner instead continue with you ramble I guess it is just to hard for you to admit that you cannot disprove professional linguistics on this points.
 
Then I showed you the problem with the amatuear usage of a rather flawed system on trying to prove close realations with mass lexical compairasion and I hgave you link and smal explanation on how flawed the system is andt hat you have to use the comparitive method in order to prove linguist evoloution.
 
So all in all you just cannot defend you method on trying to prove your relations and you just cannot admit that you cannot disprove the info I have givin you. And instead of admiting you do all you can to ingore me.. and that pretty shows thay you have nothing to come with.
 
Alll love and respect but give it up Cyrus.
 
Some girl from Sweden.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2008 at 17:04

First of all whern it comes to kuningaz I don't see or hear to much similearities with Xshayathiya.

I meant Old Persian Xshayathiya was changed to Middle Persian Xshath in the same way that Proto-Germanic *kuningaz to German König, Danish konge, English king, ...

Second of all what I gave you an explenation on how the in general Iranian accent where then took some  profesional info from Britannica and that is either primary stress on the last syllable or a more or less free accented stress system and no mattwe what it still debunks your claims that Iranian langauges have the Germanic stress.

I hope you understand that it is impossible to say how the words were exactly pronounced in the ancient times, and as your profesional info from Britannica mention, there were some differences between Old and Modern Persian accents. In fact it says the Old Iranian words had certainly NOT the stress on the last syllable and "With the loss of final unstressed vowels in the development of many Iranian languages, the stress often came to be on the final syllable."

And also I showed you trough that info how Proto-Germanic sound laws and accent evolutionary connects with PIE all from accent to grammer to phenomes.
Since you have not given an awsner instead continue with you ramble I guess it is just to hard for you to admit that you cannot disprove professional linguistics on this points.

What should I disprove?! You should prove that for example Old Persian differed from it: "Proto-Germanic kept the Proto-Indo-European system of three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter) and three numbers (singular, dual, plural), though the dual was becoming obsolete."

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/aveol-7-X.html : Old Iranian language had an extensively inflected grammar, with eight cases, each declension subject to both gender - masculine, feminine, neuter - and number - singular, plural, dual. but "The dual number found in the Avestan dialects seems to have fallen into disuse by Old Persian times."

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 3031323334 72>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.