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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 21:44

We have discussed about these things in this thread, you can find all of them in the Iranian languages too, for example read it: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=463661#463661

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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 22:33
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

We have discussed about these things in this thread, you can find all of them in the Iranian languages too, for example read it: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=463661#463661

 
I have been waiting for a reply from you of my last message. But you have not replied to that go back one page and read it and try to awsner me there.
 
Well first and as people allready pointed out that history of change in ablaut is diffrent in indo-iranian and In Germanic. And also that using English and modern Persian are bad example because English is not like traditional Germanic language and Persian is also a changed langauge that have altered a whole lot.
 
But as I said read my latest longer post in this theard and give me an awnser.. or maybe you cannot give an argument against them. Like how Verners law explain the free moving pitch accent of PIE is the reason for the exeption in Grims law.
 
And you cannot dispute solified proven sound law changes that connect to PIE and not to Iranian.
 
All love
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 11:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Would you please tell me how to prove the change was k > h and not k > s > h ?!! and how do you know that it was just k > h in the Germanic?
But you seem to miss the point, and it is the not the first time you've been told. This thread should have ended at page 1, because:
 
 
1. Dealing with evidence
 
 
1.1 It is your thread, your thesis, therefore you have the burden of proof. You, before anyone else, have to back up your claims with proper evidence.
 
1.2. It is not my (or anyone else's) duty to prove anything, because Indo-Europenistics is a well-established discipline for about 2 centuries and there are thousands of books and articles on this topic. You can find the proofs and the evidences you look for if you do the proper readings before venturing yourself in a scholarly field. Moreover, one thing you should do to prove your thesis correct is to prove the common IE theories wrong (because they claim often the opposite of what you say), and you didn't.
 
 
2. Methodology
 
 
2.1. All your "arguments" and "evidence" are about finding similar words (in form and meaning). But this "method" fails against a very simple counter-argument. We have lots of forum members having a native Germanic language (English, German, Icelandic, Swedish, etc.). Give them texts in Iranian (Farsi, Persian, whatever) to read. If they won't understand anything (or almost anything), as I anticipate it will happen, then obviously all your "hundreds of posts" about common words between Iranian and Germanic languages worth nothing, you're on the wrong track.
 
2.2. You create arguments quite often based on cursory and occasionally inaccurate readings from sites like etymonline.com, starling.rinet.ru. But this shows a severe inconsistence as those sites were build over many of the established conclusions of common IE theories (including the one that Germanic is a Centum language, and Iranian is a Satem language). Therefore all your "considerations" on sound changes can be discarded from start, as such all you're left with are the superficial similarities.


Edited by Chilbudios - 14-Nov-2008 at 12:57
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 15:46
This is not just my thesis or theory, if you read new researches about Germanic and Iranian languages then you will see most of them talk about it, the problem was that there was not any good researches about Iranian languages until last years, so linguists who knew almost nothing about it, prefered to connect Iranian to Indian languages, not Germanic.
 
You can find some good academic papers about it from this site: http://www.linguistlist.org/
 
 
Abstract:  When Turks left their territory the migration of Indo-Europeans followed. Celts, Illyrians, Italics advanced to the West. Old-Indians went to the Southeast, but Iranians remained in Eastern Europe for a long time. We know that Old-Iranian language had developed into many languages of higher level with complicated relationships.
The location of Germanic languages can be confirmed by connections of separate Germanic languages with Iranian languages, since the Iranian areas are already known. The comparative analysis of table-dictionaries of Germanic and Iranian languages discovered 253 Germanic-Iranian isoglosses. Northern Germanic languages have mostly Germanic Iranian lexical correspondences, to wit 193 ones. The English has a bit less, 173 correspondences, but the German has considerable lesser, only 95. The Ossetic has mostly Germanic lexical correspondences, to wit 143 correspondences. Pushtu and Kurdish have 93 correspondences, Yagnobi has 67 etc.
 
I think it is at least good that linguists have already found that there are some connections between Iranian and Germanic languages, I'm sure more researches will lead them on to discover Germanic is a subgroup of the Iranian languages. Smile


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Nov-2008 at 15:56
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 16:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is not just my thesis or theory, if you read new researches about Germanic and Iranian languages then you will see most of them talk about it, the problem was that there was not any good researches about Iranian languages until last years, so linguists who knew almost nothing about it, prefered to connect Iranian to Indian languages, not Germanic.
 
You can find some good academic papers about it from this site: http://www.linguistlist.org/
 
 
Abstract:  When Turks left their territory the migration of Indo-Europeans followed. Celts, Illyrians, Italics advanced to the West. Old-Indians went to the Southeast, but Iranians remained in Eastern Europe for a long time. We know that Old-Iranian language had developed into many languages of higher level with complicated relationships.
The location of Germanic languages can be confirmed by connections of separate Germanic languages with Iranian languages, since the Iranian areas are already known. The comparative analysis of table-dictionaries of Germanic and Iranian languages discovered 253 Germanic-Iranian isoglosses. Northern Germanic languages have mostly Germanic Iranian lexical correspondences, to wit 193 ones. The English has a bit less, 173 correspondences, but the German has considerable lesser, only 95. The Ossetic has mostly Germanic lexical correspondences, to wit 143 correspondences. Pushtu and Kurdish have 93 correspondences, Yagnobi has 67 etc.
 
I think it is at least good that linguists have already found that there are some connections between Iranian and Germanic languages, I'm sure more researches will lead them on to discover Germanic is a subgroup of the Iranian languages. Smile
But is only your thesis, since you didn't provide any scholarly resources to back up your claims. You either do not read or do not understand the materials you link.
 
Stetsyuk's paper holds that the Iranian and Germanic groups were neighboured for a while in their ancient history, because he identified a number of possible (he merely lists the matches, he does not discuss their etymology) loan-words. Yet he does not claim Germanic is a subgroup of Iranian group (your thesis), he doesn't claim Germanic group shows important Satem features (another claim of yours) or that Iranian group shows important Centum features (another claim of yours), instead he identified another sound-change isogloss based the evolution of the PIE bh.
 
Instead of gloating at abstracts you do not seem to understand, perhaps you'd better read the paper and see what it really holds: http://www.geocities.com/valentyn_ua/AO23.doc (in map 5 you will see the two distinct Germanic and Iranian groups in this hypothetic neighbourhood, together with other well-known IE language groups like Baltic and Slavic; if you'd want to take this paper for support in your crusade, you could say that Germanic is as Iranian as Baltic is)
 
Contrary to your claims, the knowledge of Iranian languages exist for a while. For instance, the Behistun inscription was available to Western scholarship since the 19th century, and by mid 19th century Old Persian script was deciphered. The Indo-Iranian connection remains, contrary to your wishes, a strong one.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 16:36

However, I've browsed more through the papers of that Valentyn Stetsyuk and there are some dubious claims. No wonder, he's no professional linguist:

 
 
Anyway, you may want to check his reconstruction of the IE craddle before the expansion:
 
 
 
And I think I found the real profession of this "linguist":
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 14-Nov-2008 at 17:05
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 18:44
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is not just my thesis or theory, if you read new researches about Germanic and Iranian languages then you will see most of them talk about it, the problem was that there was not any good researches about Iranian languages until last years, so linguists who knew almost nothing about it, prefered to connect Iranian to Indian languages, not Germanic.
 
You can find some good academic papers about it from this site: http://www.linguistlist.org/
 
 
Abstract:  When Turks left their territory the migration of Indo-Europeans followed. Celts, Illyrians, Italics advanced to the West. Old-Indians went to the Southeast, but Iranians remained in Eastern Europe for a long time. We know that Old-Iranian language had developed into many languages of higher level with complicated relationships.
The location of Germanic languages can be confirmed by connections of separate Germanic languages with Iranian languages, since the Iranian areas are already known. The comparative analysis of table-dictionaries of Germanic and Iranian languages discovered 253 Germanic-Iranian isoglosses. Northern Germanic languages have mostly Germanic Iranian lexical correspondences, to wit 193 ones. The English has a bit less, 173 correspondences, but the German has considerable lesser, only 95. The Ossetic has mostly Germanic lexical correspondences, to wit 143 correspondences. Pushtu and Kurdish have 93 correspondences, Yagnobi has 67 etc.
 
I think it is at least good that linguists have already found that there are some connections between Iranian and Germanic languages, I'm sure more researches will lead them on to discover Germanic is a subgroup of the Iranian languages. Smile
 

He is not a professional linguist. Also from what I know and have read from profesionals that Indo-Iranians started to move south of the PIE motherland and eventually came down to the Persian plateau and Indian sub-continent. Professional linguists have noticed that Slavic is the branch of IE that share most lexically with Germanic. And that has lead to some to believe that Balto-Slavic and Germanic might both come a northern dialect of PIE but Slavic is satem and Germanic mostly centum.

And you still have disputed the linguist evolution from PIE to Germanic. All from Grimm’s law and Verners law. The levelling of the Indo-European verbal system of tense and aspect into the present tense and the past tense (also called the preterite)

The stress fixed on the first syllable in Germanic words( can alter in loan words but Icelandic has it fixed on the first) the V2 Order that almost all Germanic languages have.

While in Persian it is the last syllable.

You cannot explain how Germanic culture and cultures connect to the more (at least back in the day) more further advanced Persian culture. You cannot explain why Iranian or Indo-Iranian people would come to Scandinavia.

Also have not answered my last large message. And on about how IE people speakers have lived in northern Europe. I said this

''No you offer no proof.. I read that in a message of you said that Germanic is just back to 500 BC... lol No it was then it is believed then the Proto-Germanic that is considered late proto Germanic when Grimm’s law was fixed. Indo-European tribes that lived in Scandinavia in the Nordic Bronze age became Germanics this is at least back to 2000 BC when the horse became domesticated or we started to see domesticated horses that we know that indo-European tribes used to spread in different parts. The Jastorf culture from around 600 BC to 100 BC was also a Germanic culture many believe it was the origin of the West Germanic languages.

And also try to find professional linguist that have studied in years in with linguistics professionally and with language relations. They do not propose Germano-Iranian or Or Germanic-Indo-Iranian because they understand the phonological history of these branches and that when you go back in time with in fair share rate they end with PIE sound laws.

And I see that you try to run from arguments. Why don't you try to refute Verners Law and Grimms law and the connection free moving pitch accent of PIE that shows in Verners to connect with when Grimm’s laws exceptions where.

Your not the first of this i have debated with.. you remind me of one that taught an even more crazy idea that all modern IE languages come from Old Greek and like you tried all his best to prove in all cost no matter what.

And the next try to find a some ''linguist'' trying to help you prove you theory then may it professional one that knows and understand IE languages to the core and there history.

I don't understand what you have against Germanic being a separate branch of IE. And I suggest that in till you have proof and can show professional study that is not biased(ideologically) in order to prove it.

All love



Edited by Some - 14-Nov-2008 at 18:50
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 19:04
I cam also add for your intrest at least if we should go after the Gimbutas idea that IE cultrual spread can be seen via with Kurgan graves(of her Kurgan theory).
And such a graves exists in scandinavia aka Tumulus  . Of course it is not sure if they have anything specific with Germanic but we know that they where inportant in Norse Paganism.
And the earlist might come from the earli tribes that came to Scandinavia and became Germanic later on :P
 
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 19:36

Chilbudios, do you agree that Germanic and Iranian were two neighbour languages? For some people it sounds impossible to put Iranian and Germanic beside each other!

By Iranian languages, I mean a Proto-Iranian language that you can call it Irano-Germanic, not just modern Iranian languages, in this language K can be changed to H sound, neither remains K in Centum, nor changes to S in Satem languages, so you can't say it belongs to just one of these groups.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 20:14

Some, I have not enough time to talk about again about Scythians and Saxons, if you are interested please read more than 1,000 posts about it in these threads: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15241 & http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148

Just about Scandinavia, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia one of the main etymologies for the word "Scandinavia" is the "island of the Scythian".

another article from linguistlist website: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011&L=gothic-l&P=13827

As early as the late Middle Ages Sca(n)dinavia was identified with Skaane, which is now the southernmost province of Sweden., but previously belonged to Denmark. Modern philologists have reconstructed a primitive Germanic form *Skathin-aujo or *Skadhin-aujo, corresponding to the Scadinavia of the Romans. The latter element of the word means 'island' or 'land on the water'.

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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 22:48
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, I have not enough time to talk about again about Scythians and Saxons, if you are interested please read more than 1,000 posts about it in these threads: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15241 & http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148

Just about Scandinavia, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia one of the main etymologies for the word "Scandinavia" is the "island of the Scythian".

another article from linguistlist website: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011&L=gothic-l&P=13827

As early as the late Middle Ages Sca(n)dinavia was identified with Skaane, which is now the southernmost province of Sweden., but previously belonged to Denmark. Modern philologists have reconstructed a primitive Germanic form *Skathin-aujo or *Skadhin-aujo, corresponding to the Scadinavia of the Romans. The latter element of the word means 'island' or 'land on the water'.

 
What I saw there was bunch of alternatives etmyotlogists because are not sure about the origin of the word  Scandinavia.  And also they said Other etymologies  under that one also they said possible indo-european congnants not Iranian.  And it seems that you still awser my arguments. In the linguistical part. I don't think it's fair are you to afriad that you cannot arhue against profesional linguistical evidence. Indo-Iranian -Has diffrent sund laws and rules connected to PIE then Germanic has (Grimms law, Verners law, stress on the first syllable)  That we know when we reconstruct them back words we don't end up with Proto Iranian or Indo-Iranian. We end up with something like more close to PIE. And you it was X before H in Germanic and there exeptions explaind in Verners law because the sound schange was because of the free moving pitch accent of PIE that governs Grimms law..
 
But I am waiting to my message in terms of linguistics.
 
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 23:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Chilbudios, do you agree that Germanic and Iranian were two neighbour languages? For some people it sounds impossible to put Iranian and Germanic beside each other!

I think you got the wrong idea. Many people put Germanic and Iranic language together, but they also put Italic, Greek, Celtic, Slavic and so on, and this whole family is called Indo-European. Certainly the languages were very long ago close neighbours, as the theory goes even further - they had a common origin. So initially there was a single language, then several dialects were formed through various innovations (like Centum, Satem but also others), then the differences deepened and new languages were shaped. However your thesis is different from that ...
 
By Iranian languages, I mean a Proto-Iranian language that you can call it Irano-Germanic, not just modern Iranian languages, in this language K can be changed to H sound, neither remains K in Centum, nor changes to S in Satem languages, so you can't say it belongs to just one of these groups.
 This claim was not proved by you, nor backed up with any kind of sources or serious bibliography (the engineer you summoned as authority doesn't seem to share your ideas, maybe you can try a pharmacist, who knows Tongue )
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 23:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Chilbudios, do you agree that Germanic and Iranian were two neighbour languages? For some people it sounds impossible to put Iranian and Germanic beside each other!

By Iranian languages, I mean a Proto-Iranian language that you can call it Irano-Germanic, not just modern Iranian languages, in this language K can be changed to H sound, neither remains K in Centum, nor changes to S in Satem languages, so you can't say it belongs to just one of these groups.

 
Germanic is in vocabulary closer to Slavic then indo-iranian. But in your world that does not make sence I guess. Some think that Germanic and ''Balto''-Slavic (Balto-Slavic depending on if you see Slavic and Baltic as one branch)  might have both devolopt from a northen dialect of PIE. How ever Slavic is satem and Germanic mostly kentum or at least more close to that.
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 23:52
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Chilbudios, do you agree that Germanic and Iranian were two neighbour languages? For some people it sounds impossible to put Iranian and Germanic beside each other!

I think you got the wrong idea. Many people put Germanic and Iranic language together, but they also put Italic, Greek, Celtic, Slavic and so on, and this whole family is called Indo-European. Certainly the languages were very long ago close neighbours, as the theory goes even further - they had a common origin. So initially there was a single language, then several dialects were formed through various innovations (like Centum, Satem but also others), then the differences deepened and new languages were shaped. However your thesis is different from that ...
 
By Iranian languages, I mean a Proto-Iranian language that you can call it Irano-Germanic, not just modern Iranian languages, in this language K can be changed to H sound, neither remains K in Centum, nor changes to S in Satem languages, so you can't say it belongs to just one of these groups.
 This claim was not proved by you, nor backed up with any kind of sources or serious bibliography (the engineer you summoned as authority doesn't seem to share your ideas, maybe you can try a pharmacist, who knows Tongue )
 
Yeah true. It is just that Cyrus seem to have alot of problems with this. He also if I go after his name seem to Iranianian nationalism and eltism. and for some reason wants to try to connect iranian as branch of Iranian and that sure don't make sence either Culturaly,Geographicly or linguisticaly. Cyrus I mean you don't have to fight to this fight cause you haev no proof nor any refute of modern day understanding of IE langauges. You cannot Verners law or Grimms law because these laws connect to PIE's phonological system not Iranian.
 
Just chill out relax Cyrus we are all IE. The dialect that became indo-iranian went trough certian sound law changes and morphlogical changes and split to Indo-Ayran such as Hindi and Iranian that that split to Old Persian and Avestan later on.
 
And also you can find similear factors in all IE langauges because end of the say they are Indo-European :)


Edited by Some - 14-Nov-2008 at 23:53
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 07:43
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Chilbudios, do you agree that Germanic and Iranian were two neighbour languages? For some people it sounds impossible to put Iranian and Germanic beside each other!


It is true that some Germanic tribes were at certain stage in history neighbour of some Iranian tribes. What does it prove?? Is Magyar subgroup of West Slavic just because they have neighboured one another for over one thousand years or vice versa?
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 07:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Just about Scandinavia, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia one of the main etymologies for the word "Scandinavia" is the "island of the Scythian".


I don't know about Persian culture, but in European culture if we put something under the title 'other' we certainly don't mean it as anything with considerable importance.
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 11:52
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Chilbudios, do you agree that Germanic and Iranian were two neighbour languages? For some people it sounds impossible to put Iranian and Germanic beside each other!


It is true that some Germanic tribes were at certain stage in history neighbour of some Iranian tribes. What does it prove?? Is Magyar subgroup of West Slavic just because they have neighboured one another for over one thousand years or vice versa?
 
Well said :)
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 13:30
Originally posted by Some

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, I have not enough time to talk about again about Scythians and Saxons, if you are interested please read more than 1,000 posts about it in these threads: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15241 & http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148

Just about Scandinavia, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia one of the main etymologies for the word "Scandinavia" is the "island of the Scythian".

another article from linguistlist website: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011&L=gothic-l&P=13827

As early as the late Middle Ages Sca(n)dinavia was identified with Skaane, which is now the southernmost province of Sweden., but previously belonged to Denmark. Modern philologists have reconstructed a primitive Germanic form *Skathin-aujo or *Skadhin-aujo, corresponding to the Scadinavia of the Romans. The latter element of the word means 'island' or 'land on the water'.

 
What I saw there was bunch of alternatives etmyotlogists because are not sure about the origin of the word  Scandinavia.  And also they said Other etymologies  under that one also they said possible indo-european congnants not Iranian.  And it seems that you still awser my arguments. In the linguistical part. I don't think it's fair are you to afriad that you cannot arhue against profesional linguistical evidence. Indo-Iranian -Has diffrent sund laws and rules connected to PIE then Germanic has (Grimms law, Verners law, stress on the first syllable)  That we know when we reconstruct them back words we don't end up with Proto Iranian or Indo-Iranian. We end up with something like more close to PIE. And you it was X before H in Germanic and there exeptions explaind in Verners law because the sound schange was because of the free moving pitch accent of PIE that governs Grimms law..
 
But I am waiting to my message in terms of linguistics.
 
I don't talk about Indo-Iranian but Iranian which has Grimm's law, Verner's law, stress on the first syllable, ... in fact these laws relate more to Iranian languages than Germanic. My first post in this thread was about "Grimm's law", I showed there that these sound changes first occured in the Iranian langaues.
 
 
PIE *p *t *k *kʷ *s
Grimm *x *xʷ
Verner *x *xʷ *ɣʷ *s *z
 
As you read it says "There is a spinoff from Verner's Law: the rule accounts also for PGmc *z as the development of PIE *s in some words.", the example is the Egnlish word "Choose" from PIE base *geus-, here: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=461702#461702 however we were discussing about "Ch" sound in the Germanic languages but I mentioned that the Middle Persian word for "Choose" was "Chuztan", so I think it is obvious that PIE sound "s" was changed to "z" first in the Iranian languages.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 15-Nov-2008 at 13:34
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 15:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Some

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, I have not enough time to talk about again about Scythians and Saxons, if you are interested please read more than 1,000 posts about it in these threads: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15241 & http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148

Just about Scandinavia, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia one of the main etymologies for the word "Scandinavia" is the "island of the Scythian".

another article from linguistlist website: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011&L=gothic-l&P=13827

As early as the late Middle Ages Sca(n)dinavia was identified with Skaane, which is now the southernmost province of Sweden., but previously belonged to Denmark. Modern philologists have reconstructed a primitive Germanic form *Skathin-aujo or *Skadhin-aujo, corresponding to the Scadinavia of the Romans. The latter element of the word means 'island' or 'land on the water'.

 
What I saw there was bunch of alternatives etmyotlogists because are not sure about the origin of the word  Scandinavia.  And also they said Other etymologies  under that one also they said possible indo-european congnants not Iranian.  And it seems that you still awser my arguments. In the linguistical part. I don't think it's fair are you to afriad that you cannot arhue against profesional linguistical evidence. Indo-Iranian -Has diffrent sund laws and rules connected to PIE then Germanic has (Grimms law, Verners law, stress on the first syllable)  That we know when we reconstruct them back words we don't end up with Proto Iranian or Indo-Iranian. We end up with something like more close to PIE. And you it was X before H in Germanic and there exeptions explaind in Verners law because the sound schange was because of the free moving pitch accent of PIE that governs Grimms law..
 
But I am waiting to my message in terms of linguistics.
 
I don't talk about Indo-Iranian but Iranian which has Grimm's law, Verner's law, stress on the first syllable, ... in fact these laws relate more to Iranian languages than Germanic. My first post in this thread was about "Grimm's law", I showed there that these sound changes first occured in the Iranian langaues.
 
 
PIE *p *t *k *kʷ *s
Grimm *x *xʷ
Verner *x *xʷ *ɣʷ *s *z
 
As you read it says "There is a spinoff from Verner's Law: the rule accounts also for PGmc *z as the development of PIE *s in some words.", the example is the Egnlish word "Choose" from PIE base *geus-, here: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=461702#461702 however we were discussing about "Ch" sound in the Germanic languages but I mentioned that the Middle Persian word for "Choose" was "Chuztan", so I think it is obvious that PIE sound "s" was changed to "z" first in the Iranian languages.
 
 
Persian has it's main stress fixed on the last syllable and Tajik  has it mainly on the last syllable.  Pahsto has more or less free moving stress accent like some eastern Iranian langauges while PIE hade a free moving pitch accent.
 
Also the ''proof'' you would want to come phonologial incorrect. And sometimes it would be just as stupid for someone to say that north germanic langauges are proven to be extremly close to Slavic just because most of them have transformed many K's (labio-velars as well I think it was) to in Swedish Voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative  and thus gone trough palatalization  . Or to say that scottish gealic is closely realeted to Swedish and Norewgian because some dialects of Scottish Gealic also has a pitch accent similear to the Swedish ,Norewegian even if the truth is that Scottish gealic was just influenced by Old Norse and thus might have gaind it trough contact.
 
And if Germanic is not direct anchestor to PIE most linguist would then connect it with Balto-Slavic in a Germano-Balto-SLavic linguist family.  While most see Germanic and Slavic as sepreate and I don't argue for a common langauge that they decend other then PIE I can see posibility with then coming from a northen dialect of PIE rather then a well developt diffrent daughter langauge of PIE.
 
And the wikipedia page about Verners Law does not prove your theory but rather the oposite.
 


Edited by Some - 15-Nov-2008 at 17:38
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  Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2008 at 15:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Some

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Some, I have not enough time to talk about again about Scythians and Saxons, if you are interested please read more than 1,000 posts about it in these threads: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=15241 & http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22148

Just about Scandinavia, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia one of the main etymologies for the word "Scandinavia" is the "island of the Scythian".

another article from linguistlist website: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011&L=gothic-l&P=13827

As early as the late Middle Ages Sca(n)dinavia was identified with Skaane, which is now the southernmost province of Sweden., but previously belonged to Denmark. Modern philologists have reconstructed a primitive Germanic form *Skathin-aujo or *Skadhin-aujo, corresponding to the Scadinavia of the Romans. The latter element of the word means 'island' or 'land on the water'.

 
What I saw there was bunch of alternatives etmyotlogists because are not sure about the origin of the word  Scandinavia.  And also they said Other etymologies  under that one also they said possible indo-european congnants not Iranian.  And it seems that you still awser my arguments. In the linguistical part. I don't think it's fair are you to afriad that you cannot arhue against profesional linguistical evidence. Indo-Iranian -Has diffrent sund laws and rules connected to PIE then Germanic has (Grimms law, Verners law, stress on the first syllable)  That we know when we reconstruct them back words we don't end up with Proto Iranian or Indo-Iranian. We end up with something like more close to PIE. And you it was X before H in Germanic and there exeptions explaind in Verners law because the sound schange was because of the free moving pitch accent of PIE that governs Grimms law..
 
But I am waiting to my message in terms of linguistics.
 
I don't talk about Indo-Iranian but Iranian which has Grimm's law, Verner's law, stress on the first syllable, ... in fact these laws relate more to Iranian languages than Germanic. My first post in this thread was about "Grimm's law", I showed there that these sound changes first occured in the Iranian langaues.
 
 
PIE *p *t *k *kʷ *s
Grimm *x *xʷ
Verner *x *xʷ *ɣʷ *s *z
 
As you read it says "There is a spinoff from Verner's Law: the rule accounts also for PGmc *z as the development of PIE *s in some words.", the example is the Egnlish word "Choose" from PIE base *geus-, here: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=461702#461702 however we were discussing about "Ch" sound in the Germanic languages but I mentioned that the Middle Persian word for "Choose" was "Chuztan", so I think it is obvious that PIE sound "s" was changed to "z" first in the Iranian languages.
 
From Proto-Germanic *kuz-, from Proto-Indo-European *geus- (taste, choose). Cognate with Old Frisian kiāsa, Old Saxon kiosan (Dutch kiezen), Old High German kiosan, Old Norse kjósa, Gothic 𐌺𐌹𐌿𐍃𐌰𐌽. The IE root was also the source of Latin gustare ‘to taste’, Albanian desha ‘chosen’. 
 
it is not CH/sh in most other cases you you can se but rather K. Q in Latin and D in Albanian.
 
 
 
 
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