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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

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Slayertplsko View Drop Down
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:13
All are there. I don't know why you object - and maybe you do have a poor knowledge on avestan, who knows...but I would say it's a phonology issue if anything.

Here is another source:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/avestan.html

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/avestan.htm
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:15
I really find it difficult to imagine how anyone can take a generic vowel followed by an 'l' and read any significance whatsoever into it appearing in different languages. I have a grandson called Al. The French say 'Allo' into the phone. Italians eat spaghetti al dente. For that matter, oil is a lot more a barrel than ale, and Japanese restaurants serve grilled eel.
 
Maybe drinking too much ale or øl makes you ill (or is that from too much eel?), alas.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:21
All my allies refuse to eat eelsDead
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:25
Lets discuss one by one, first show your source about bilabial fricatives in the Avestan language.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:28
Anyway, I doubt it's because of the similarity only...it sure must be found in context, only then you can grasp the meaning.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:33
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Lets discuss one by one, first show your source about bilabial fricatives in the Avestan language.


The source no1 (a wiki table) and the last two sources dealing with the script.

Avestan was spoken since about 1000BC till cca 400AD...most of the time used as the language of Zoroasthrians...it's a long time, that's why the sources differ a little in phonology.

Cyrus, describe me a voiceless bilabial fricative...do you know what it is??
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 20:19
hi, sound changes in language can be very similar and not even related because humans all generally have the same mouth structure.

P often becomes B or V and this has occurred very recently and independently among local cognate Iranian languages in Iran which make some words sound akin to more western IE languages than Persian.  Also words are often simplified and over time inadvertently become formal.

However, I am not completely unsympathetic to Cyrus' proposition because there are certain words and structures which Germanic and Iranic languages have in common which are not found (in my experience) in intermediate IE languages.

can someone please advise what the word for daughter and girl is in slavic and italic languages (and Greek)?
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 20:32
For daughter we have currently 'dcera' (d is silent).

Old Church Slavonic had 'dusti', Lithuanian had 'dukta' and Greek 'thygater'...they are cognates.

'girl' appears in English only, and in the meaning of a young female relatively lately.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 20:39
I agree with what you said about the shifts...some of Grimm's shifts appear in Slavic, too.
About the words. Just like shifts, the words alone don't account for much. And as you can see, the word cognate to 'daughter' can be found in other branches as well - I don't know about Italic languages.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 20:49
About the palatal affricatives, we can use your own source.

c - church (voiceless)....about the voiced form...'j' isn't included in the list, so it should be pronounced like in English - i.e. voiced palatal affricative.

And theeeen...aha...voiced velar fricative, again your source:

kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so...

And we had also voiced palatal fricative, again your source:

zh - as azure (or French je)


About the others:
voiced nasal fricative: all my sources...candidate in your source is 'ñ' (this is the way Spanish uses the grapheme), because english already has 'n' and other grapheme for it would be useless.

...so Cyrus, you didn't read your source carefully again.Smile


Edited by Slayertplsko - 13-Jun-2008 at 20:52
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 23:02
Well there are some things you notice as a speaker of Persian and English which may lead you to believe certain things which are related but perhaps not directly so.

German: Man = Persian Man = English: me
German: Tochter = Persian Dox(kh)tar = English: Daughter

These are just two lonesome examples I can think off the top of my head, my point about the pronunciation being more similar than the intermediate languages referred to words such as these.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 23:13
Well, what do you mean by German Man??

Persian man means me right?? German man doesn't mean 'me', it isn't 'Man' but 'man' and it's used in the sense:

Man tut das nicht. One does it not. It is not done. (English doesn't have it to my knowledge, it's a general subject).

'me' in German is 'mich' (acc) and 'mir' (dat)...in Slavic languages we have 'mna', 'mne' etc. It's similar in many languages. French 'moi' etc...it was like this in PIE, so it is similar in most of languages.

About 'daughter', it's quite common as well...Ger. Tochter, Skt. duhitar-, Armenian dustr, O.C.S. dusti, Lith. dukte, Gk. thygater.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 13-Jun-2008 at 23:22
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 05:05
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

About the palatal affricatives, we can use your own source.

c - church (voiceless)....about the voiced form...'j' isn't included in the list, so it should be pronounced like in English - i.e. voiced palatal affricative.

And theeeen...aha...voiced velar fricative, again your source:

kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so...

And we had also voiced palatal fricative, again your source:

zh - as azure (or French je)


About the others:
voiced nasal fricative: all my sources...candidate in your source is 'ñ' (this is the way Spanish uses the grapheme), because english already has 'n' and other grapheme for it would be useless.

...so Cyrus, you didn't read your source carefully again.Smile
 
Do you want to say there were no ch, x and zh sounds in the Germanic languages? but why there are several words with these letters/sounds in their languages and they can spell them easily?!! What are the origins of "ch" sound in Chicken, "x" sound in Saxon Wink, in "zh" sound in Visual?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 05:32
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

For daughter we have currently 'dcera' (d is silent).

Old Church Slavonic had 'dusti', Lithuanian had 'dukta' and Greek 'thygater'...they are cognates.

'girl' appears in English only, and in the meaning of a young female relatively lately.
The very Persian word for "girl" is "Kirla" (*g→k), I think it is not used just because its bad meaning in Arabic (kir=penis), you can find similar words in almost all other Iranian languages, such as "Kilka" in Deilami, "Kor" in Gilaki, "Kich" in Kurdish, ...
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 07:10
Man, yes One = formal "me".

Again, my friend - I am not drawing any conclusions, I am just noting the similarities as a speaker of English, Kurdish, Persian and at one time, German.


Edited by Zagros - 14-Jun-2008 at 07:17
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 08:50
What are the origins of "ch" sound in Chicken,


It appeared in Old English first and it's not in Old Saxon or Old Frisian according to Koebler, so I guess maybe Vulgar Latin or Celtic influence, or maybe just a shift. The same about the voiced form. It wasn't in Old Low Franconian, Old Norse and Old High German either. It definitely isn't influence of a Germanic language on English.

I would bet on Vulgar Latin if anything, due to the palatalisation that occured in the language.


x" sound in Saxon Wink


Where do I mention this?????


in "zh" sound in Visual


Found in words like 'genre' and 'journalist' right?? And in some other like the one you said - again, not a Germanic word, and voiced palatal fricative appears quite lately in English. The same applies to German, but Norwegian pronounces these loan words with 'sh'.





Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jun-2008 at 10:31
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 08:56
Originally posted by Zagros

Man, yes One = formal "me".


I'm not sure what you mean, could you give me a sentence with this meaning??

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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 09:06
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm ,"a" before a vowel is spelled "h", so aota=hota & aurvant=hurvant


Now it's your turn...give me your source for this bitteSmile

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:35
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

What are the origins of "ch" sound in Chicken,


It appeared in Old English first and it's not in Old Saxon or Old Frisian according to Koebler, so I guess maybe Vulgar Latin or Celtic influence, or maybe just a shift. The same about the voiced form. It wasn't in Old Low Franconian, Old Norse and Old High German either. It definitely isn't influence of a Germanic language on English.

I would bet on Vulgar Latin if anything, due to the palatalisation that occured in the language.
It's common in modern Italian too, as a result. In French it has softened to more like English 'sh' as in 'chambre' or 'chaud'. Portuguese is like French, approximately. In Spanish it seems to have turned to English voiceless 'th'.
 
Modern German has a very similar sound to the French, at least in the Rhineland, in the pronunciation of 'ch' in 'ich' or 'Brecht' or 'g' in, say, 'beschäftig' (n both cases after a soft vowel).
 
Russian has the sound all over the place, and has a special letter for it.
 
I really don't know what it meant by the 'origin' of a sound. Sounds don't only develop once. I figured out once, many years ago, that I had learned to pronounce (not always well) some seventy-odd consonants and about 35 vowel sounds. The same ones crop up in all sorts of different languages, like the final 'dark' 'L'  in Russia and (modern) Wessex.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 14-Jun-2008 at 11:36
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:43
Originally posted by gcle2003

Russian has the sound all over the place, and has a special letter for it.


So do even all Slavic languages.
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