Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2223242526 72>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 19:50

It is interesting to read: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-English-words-of-Persian-origin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomb : Coomb (unit), a Saxon liquid measurement by volume

Coomb
Middle English combe, from Old English cumb, a liquid measure; akin to Middle Low German kump bowl, vessel, Middle High German kumpf bowl, Persian gumpat (Gonbad).

Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 20:27
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It is interesting to read: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-English-words-of-Persian-origin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coomb : Coomb (unit), a Saxon liquid measurement by volume

Coomb
Middle English combe, from Old English cumb, a liquid measure; akin to Middle Low German kump bowl, vessel, Middle High German kumpf bowl, Persian gumpat (Gonbad).



Interesting really...anyway, Slovak language has about 90% of these words as well.
The word 'coomb' comes from Celtic 'kumbos'.

As you know, English has loan words originating in a high number of world's languages spanning through all continents (except Antarctica of course). As for the IE, it has loan words from Latin, Romance, Greek, Slavic, Hindi, Farsi, Baltic, Celtic...it has loan words from Finnish and Hungarian as well, Korean, Japanese, Chinese and various native languages of Austronesia, Africa and America - the list goes on and on of course....and the same can be said about Slovak language...or Czech language...or Russian...etc...etc...etc...




Edited by Slayertplsko - 05-Jul-2008 at 20:45
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 00:00
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Cyrus, lesbian was coined in the 18th century. It wasn't used before that. There are very few thing that is 100% clear in history. This is one of them.
Source please (please don't show dictionaries), there could be an older similar word which has been changed to "Lesbian". Like Akkadian "Bagadata" which was replaced by Persian "Baghdad" (God-Given in Persian), the fact is that "Bagadata" never means "God-Given" in Akkadian and is just similar to this Persian word.

Well, I don't really know what kind of source you want then. This is common knowledge here, kind of like asking of a source proving that London *really* is the capital of the UK. The very thing that sapphism and lesbianism was used interchangeably until the latter gained dominance should be a hint. Greek literature had a renaissance in the 18th-19th centuries, and this is where the term "lesbian" first appears (William King, the Toast, 1732).
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 05:56

You want probably to say "Sapphism/Sapphic" (according to it: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Sapphic) comes from Fr. saphique, from L. Sapphicus, from Gk. Sapphikos "of Sappho," in ref. to Sappho, poetess of the isle of Lesbos , yes?

I think we need to find the origin of Greek words, was "Sappho" really name of a Greek woman? or it meant the same as Persian "Sapu" which means "Prostitute" from the verb Sapukhtan "Have sexual intercourse with".  source

Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 09:18
Yes it was a Greek poet:
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greeks/sappho_cm.JPG

And about the meaning of her name I don't know....I'll try to find out.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 10:40
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think we need to find the origin of Greek words,


NO we needn't, it changes nothing. It comes via Latin and French from Greek...even if the Greek word came from Persian, it is utterly irrelevant to us.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 15:32
Now lets discuss "Is Persian a subgroup of the Germanic languages?" Wink
 
 
rook (2) Look%20up%20rook%20at%20Dictionary.com
"chess piece," c.1300, from O.Fr. roc, from Ar. rukhkh, from Pers. rukh, of unknown meaning

And my Persian dictionary says Persian "Rokh" comes from Old German "Roche" which means "Stone Column, Stone Pillar".
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 16:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

And my Persian dictionary says Persian "Rokh" comes from Old German "Roche" which means "Stone Column, Stone Pillar".


This would again mean that Iranian is subgroup of Germanic.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 16:14

Hello Cyrus

One of the meanings of ع-ر-ق root is sweat but derivatives from that root also mean lowlands and other meanings. I am not an etymology expert nor I know of any effort to trace the proto-semitic roots but it may indeed be a persian loan word and it may be not.

AL-Jassas
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 19:37
Al Jassas, the Arabic word for "Marble" is "Rokham" (رخام), do you know about its origin?
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 20:03

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

And my Persian dictionary says Persian "Rokh" comes from Old German "Roche" which means "Stone Column, Stone Pillar".


This would again mean that Iranian is subgroup of Germanic.

Do you believe Germans invented the "Chess"?!
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 09:27
Germans could invent the "Chess", why not?!
 
Ok, I found the English word: "Rock": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=rock
 
rock (n.) Look%20up%20rock%20at%20Dictionary.com
"stone," O.E. rocc (in stanrocc "stone rock or obelisk")
 
Obelisk: a tapering stone pillar of square or rectangular cross section, set up as a monument or landmark. (Oxford Dictionary)
Rock: v. move gently to and fro or from side to side (Oxford Dictionary)
 
It is said to be originally a piece of the Germanic Tafl game, maybe Chess was just a developed version of this game! Wink
 
Could it also be related to Saxon Irminsul?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 07-Jul-2008 at 09:28
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 09:30
More info about Tafl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafl_games
 
 
-> Any piece may move any number of vacant spaces in any straight line [←↑→↓], but not diagonally. (Compare to the rook in Chess.)
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 10:53
That board is a bit misleading to look like chess. There were no black or white squares, just the lines. I used to play that a bit, though I don't see how it's relevant to this topic. The game was probably imported from the Romans - or rather a development of a game that was. Chess came to Scandinavia in the 1200s, and knocked out the tavel-games.

About rook or similar, though chess pieces have never been called that in Scandinavian, "rauk" indeed meens "stone pillar" in modern Swedish.

 
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 11:37
About rook or similar, though chess pieces have never been called that in Scandinavian, "rauk" indeed meens "stone pillar" in modern Swedish.
intersting, what was the Scandinavian word for "Rook", as a chess piece? I mean the oldest known word, it will show "Rook" was originally a Germanic word or an Iranian word, or maybe both of them!
 
And about "Rauk", is it a loan word from a non-Germanic language or has a Germanic origin?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 07-Jul-2008 at 11:38
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

About rook or similar, though chess pieces have never been called that in Scandinavian, "rauk" indeed meens "stone pillar" in modern Swedish.
intersting, what was the Scandinavian word for "Rook", as a chess piece? I mean the oldest known word, it will show "Rook" was originally a Germanic word or an Iranian word, or maybe both of them!
 
And about "Rauk", is it a loan word from a non-Germanic language or has a Germanic origin?

I honestly don't know. In modern Swedish we use pjäs - piece - which is a loan word from French (probably 17th century).

Rauk is definitely a Germanic word. To modern Swedish it came from Gutnish, since the word had disappeared in Swedish. These stone pillars are mostly occuring on Gotland, which is why the Gutnish version remained. The modern Swedish would have been "rök" if it had not disappeared.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 13:46

The Old Norse names of the chess pieces, accroding to this site: http://www.ravensgard.org/prdunham/ngames.html , are:

Konungr/Kóngr = The King
Dróttning = The Queen
Biskup = The Bishop
Riddari/Riddarakappi = The Knight
Hrókr/Hróksvald = The Rook
Peð/Peðsvald = The Pawn

Is "hrókr" an Old Norse loan word from Persian?
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 14:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The Old Norse names of the chess pieces, accroding to this site: http://www.ravensgard.org/prdunham/ngames.html , are:

Konungr/Kóngr = The King
Dróttning = The Queen
Biskup = The Bishop
Riddari/Riddarakappi = The Knight
Hrókr/Hróksvald = The Rook
Peð/Peðsvald = The Pawn

Is "hrókr" an Old Norse loan word from Persian?

This looks like the Icelandic names. Hrókr is the same word as the rauk I mentioned. It's older than chess (ie, it's older than the introduction of Chess in Scandinavia). For comparison, the Swedish names are:

Konung/Kung = the king
Drottning/Dam = the Queen
Löpare = the bishop (literally runner)
Springare = the knight (literally runner=horse)
Torn = the rook (literally tower)
Bonde = the pawn (literally yeoman)
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 15:56
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

And my Persian dictionary says Persian "Rokh" comes from Old German "Roche" which means "Stone Column, Stone Pillar".


This would again mean that Iranian is subgroup of Germanic.

Do you believe Germans invented the "Chess"?!



No. Do you believe this word was created specially for chess??
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 17:31
 

Old Norse

Etymology 1

From Common Germanic *hroka-, *hrokaz (‘rook’) < Indo-European *kerk-, *krek-, *krok- (‘to crow, caw, croak’)

Noun

hrókr m.

  1. (bird) rook (Corvus frugilegus)

Descendants

Etymology 2

From French roc < Latin roccus < Persian رخ (rukh).

Noun

hrókr m.

  1. (chess) rook, castle

Descendants
-----------------------------------------------------
 
 
roc Look%20up%20roc%20at%20Dictionary.com
large, ferocious bird of fable, 1579, from Arabic rukhkh, from Pers. rukh. Mentioned in Marco Polo's account of Madagascar, modern use is mostly from "Arabian Nights."
 
 
rook (2) Look%20up%20rook%20at%20Dictionary.com
"chess piece," c.1300, from O.Fr. roc, from Ar. rukhkh, from Pers. rukh, of unknown meaning


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 07-Jul-2008 at 17:39
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2223242526 72>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.