Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Why don't you want to at least believe that Indo-European words have Indo-European origins? Would you please tell me which words where used instead of "lesbian" and "gay" before the 18th century? I hope you don't want to say that there were no Indo-European words for them?!!!

Of course we do. If this is what you're implying then yes. But till now, every word had Iranian origin according to you. Sure they have IE origin - but that doesn't mean:
1, they have Iranian origin
2, if they're similar they share the same root (gay vs. gay, more vs. more, brujo vs. brucho etc.)

The only word that comes to mind was 'argr' in Old Norse, which had a similar meaning to gay.

Of course we do. If this is what you're implying then yes. But till now, every word had Iranian origin according to you. Sure they have IE origin - but that doesn't mean: 1, they have Iranian origin 2, if they're similar they share the same root (gay vs. gay, more vs. more, brujo vs. brucho etc.)

It is very obvious that Persian and Germanic word is not similar to Greek äol, it can be similar to Slavic *vepra or Baltic *wepr but there are some changes, we have removed the the first syllable "ve/we", "p" has been changed to "ba/bai" and a "z" has been added at the end.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri You can read it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar the very Middle Persian word for "Boar" is "Baraz"   and it says: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boar&searchmode=none   boar O.E. bar, from W.Gmc. *bairaz, of unknown origin with no cognates outside W.Gmc. Applied to persons of boar-like character in M.E. It is very obvious that Persian and Germanic word is not similar to Greek äol, it can be similar to Slavic *vepra or Baltic *wepr but there are some changes, we have removed the the first syllable "ve/we", "p" has been changed to "ba/bai" and a "z" has been added at the end.

It still doesn't mean that it has Iranian origin - you'll have to provide the complete etymology of 'baraz' if you want to compare at least. It doesn't even mean they are cognates.

Celtic 'more' and Slovak 'more' have the same pronunciation, the exact same meaning...but still, it doesn't mean that they're ancestral to one another.

About the cognates:
A good example would be the word 'wolf'. AFAIK almost all, if not all IE languages have it derived from a single PIE word.

Skt. vrkas, Avestan vehrka-; Albanian ulk; O.C.S. vluku; Rus. volcica; Lith. vilkas "wolf;" O.Pers. Varkana.

It doesn't mean, however, that it belongs to Iranians!!

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri I meant an exact word for "gay", about Old Norse "argr":

What do you mean by 'exact'?? The only 'exact' one that comes to mind is 'homosexual'. Even 'gay' isn't 'exact'. There isn't exact word for homosexual - there are just words that are used for homosexuals - just like English 'gay' or 'bent', Slavic 'teplý' (literally 'warm').

You ignored my question anyway: OK and one more thing - bad, naz, div, 'hot' aren't Avestan right?? - reply to it please.




Edited by Slayertplsko - 04-Jul-2008 at 17:38

Originally posted by Slayertplsko About the cognates: A good example would be the word 'wolf'. AFAIK almost all, if not all IE languages have it derived from a single PIE word. Skt. vrkas, Avestan vehrka-; Albanian ulk; O.C.S. vluku; Rus. volcica; Lith. vilkas "wolf;" O.Pers. Varkana. It doesn't mean, however, that it belongs to Iranians!!

Those words aren't Avestan but have Avestan origin, now try to satisfy yourself that Germanic "Brid" (Bird) doesn't relate to Iranian "Brida"!

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Originally posted by Styrbiorn No. Both the words "lesbian" and "gay" in the meaning of homosexual are very new inventions, and well documented at that. This shows how  unfounded all of your arguments actually are. You are doing the same thing over and over again, but this time I'm amazed you insist, considering how futile this is. "Lesbian" was coined in the 18th century, and "gay" is even younger, dating the 20th century. Gay meant indeed happy, merry, but was applied to prostitution and later to homosexuality. Word changes all the time, sometimes very unpredictably. For example, kids in Sweden now use the word "grym" for "cool" - even though grym literally means cruel. Why don't you want to at least believe that Indo-European words have Indo-European origins? Would you please tell me which words where used instead of "lesbian" and "gay" before the 18th century? I hope you don't want to say that there were no Indo-European words for them?!!!   Read this thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=5415 (read, about 1,000 years ago, what Mahasti Ganjavi the great Persian poetess, composed)

I don't base my beliefs on what I want to believe, but on what can be shown to be true. Your reasoning is not logical. "Lesbian" was coined in the 18th century to mean women who sexually prefer women. This was based on Sappho, who incidently lived on the island of Lesbos (Lesbian really means inhabitant of Lesbos, and the current Lesbians are pretty mad their name has been used for such a meaning).

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Poor inhabitant of Lesbos! This is certainly a false etymology, you know about K->S sound shift in Indo-European languages, "Lasidan/Lisidan" means "to lick" in Persian, "Lasi/Lashi" is a very bad word in Persian (an insult to a woman) and means "a woman who licks" or "Lecher", "Licker", ...

It is a correct etymology - 'lesbian' comes from 'Lesbos'. Of course, the Persian word doesn't come from 'Lesbos', nobody ever claimed that.

Sources & Facts - it was a joke when you claimed it for the first time?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri You who say all historical sources are not credible just because they say something that you don't believe in or me that just rely on sources?

So we can see the example of 'lesbian' (and other as well):
1, I rely on the sources about the word etymologies
2, you deny them because they say something you don't want to believe or is uncomfortable for your theory


Edited by Slayertplsko - 05-Jul-2008 at 13:13

You said you rely on sources?? Here you have one...I can bring you loads claiming the same. You want to ignore what linguists say?

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea (the name originally may have meant "wooded"), home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."

I can pretty much ignore lasidan and lisidan ( since there is 'lick', not 'liss')...these words are Iranian, not Germanic, and there is no way...we've been through this.

Do you really believe the correct etymology of "Lesbian" is based on legends about the Greek island of Lesbos?

Yes, together with the world's linguists. Do you wanna believe it comes from 'lasidan'....HOW?

If this word has a Greek or Latin origin then it will be certainly the same as Engish "Lascivious" (Oxford Dictionary: feeling or revealing an overt or offensive sexual desire) or "Libidinous" (Oxford Dictionary: having or showing excessive sexual drive)

No. These two are Latin words anyway, and they're not cognates.

What do 'lust' and 'lick' have to do with lesbian??

OK...provide me a source which claims lesbian comes from lasidan. Otherwise you would have to explain me the 'I rely on sources' nonsense.