Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223 72>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
    Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 18:24
German 'necken' comes from OHG 'binekken', which meant 'to tease, to irritate'. MHG 'necken' meant 'to tease, to irritate, to harry' and also 'to smell' (intransitive sense).

The adjective form 'neclich'/'neckisch' appeared in MHG in the sense of 'mischievous, teasing'.

Firstly, the meaning quite differs from 'silly, foolish' (whereas the French meaning was almost identical). Secondly, I see no way how 'necken'/'neclich'/'neckisch' could have become 'nice' (please notice that all they have in common is the 'n' sound...you could equally say it comes from Slovak 'nasierať', which at least shares the two basic consonants). Thirdly, English has only the adjective meaning, it lacks the basic one - verb!

It's obvious and certain that 'nice' has nothing to do with 'necken'.
(source: Koebler...bookmark it)

Now give me reference for those Avestan words.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 20:08
German 'necken' comes from OHG 'binekken', which meant 'to tease, to irritate'. MHG 'necken' meant 'to tease, to irritate, to harry' and also 'to smell' (intransitive sense).
You are right, Necken also means "to tease" (Oxford Dictionary: playfully make fun of or attempt to provoke. tempt sexually.) It can be considered as a suitable meaning for Persian "Naz" too.
 
Firstly, the meaning quite differs from 'silly, foolish'
Do you read my posts? This activity is regarded as foolish.
 
(whereas the French meaning was almost identical).
No, the middle English word also meant "senseless" (Oxford: without discernible meaning or purpose), those who do senseless acts, are not necessarily ignorant (Latin nescius).
 
Secondly, I see no way how 'necken'/'neclich'/'neckisch' could have become 'nice'
We have discuused about it: "K" could be changed to "S" in Iranian and Germanic languages, do you remember our discussion about: Latin clavis, Greek Kleidion and Old Saxon Slutil (Key) source: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/latinsaxon/c.php
 
 
Proto-IE: *klāw-

Meaning: key, hook, nail

Old Greek: ep., ion. klǟís, -ī^dos, att. kléi̯s, älter klǟ^i̯s, -dós f. `Pflock, Ruderpflock; Querriegel, Haken, Schlüssel, Schlüsselbein'; dor. klāi̯ks (Theocr.), epidaur., mess. gen. klaikos, acc. -ka `id.'

Slavic: *kljū̃čь, *kljūkā (контаминации)

Baltic: *kleu-d- vb. tr., *klǖ^- vb. intr.

Germanic: *slūt-a-/*sliut-a- vb.

Latin: clāvis, -is f. `Schlüssel, Riegel, Stange der Kelter, Treibkloben'; clāvus, -ī `Nagel, Pflock; nagelförmiger Griff am Steuerruder'; claudō, -sī, -sum, -ere `schliesse, sperre zu, verschliesse'

Celtic: OIr clō, pl. clōi `Nagel', MCymr clo `Riegel, Verschluss', pl. cloeu `clavi', MBret clou `ferrement'

Russ. meaning: ключ, крючок, гвоздь


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 01-Jul-2008 at 20:14
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 20:45
Do you read my posts? This activity is regarded as foolish.


Honestly, this is a joke?? But if you want to, we can speak German from now on.

No, the middle English word also meant "senseless" (Oxford: without discernible meaning or purpose), those who do senseless acts, are not necessarily ignorant (Latin nescius).


So what?? The German word is much further in both meaning and form. Anyway, if a statement is senseless how do we call it?? Stupid...that's exactly how I called some of your posts some time ago - I think yo remember, because you didn't seem to like it.
 
We have discuused about it: "K" could be changed to "S" in Iranian and Germanic languages,


Firstly, this is very rare in Germanic languages. Secondly, it happened more than 2000 years ago, we're talking about a completely different time. 'binekken' simply can't be changed to 'nice'...you're embarrassing yourself by holding this silly position. Do you have a source which proves 'nice' doesn't come from French??

And now give me what I asked you for several times, otherwise forget it.

I haven't been able to find 'nays' in the dic, only 'naz'. Is it because 'nays' is a French-influenced spelling or is it a grammar issue? Could you give a reference for the Persian 'nays' as well?



Edited by Slayertplsko - 02-Jul-2008 at 12:44
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 15:44
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The problem is that you just don't want to believe the facts!


And don't rely on sources...we've been through this - we all know that it's you who don't want to believe facts and refuse to rely on sources unless it adds to your agenda. I'm still waiting in Ir-Ger thread for your answers....facts & sources...come on, show meWink
How should I show you my sources when I can't find anything on the web?
 
My Persian dictionary says "Nays" (Nice) and "bad" (bad) have Avestan origin, the important point is that these are Iranian words and you can't find any similar words with the same meanings in other Indo-European langauges.
 
Persian/English "Bad" means:
 
1 of poor quality or a low standard.
2 unwelcome; unpleasant.
3 offending moral standards or accepted conventions.
4 injured, ill, or diseased.
5 (of food) decayed.
6 guilty; ashamed.
7 inappropriate.
 
And Persian/English "Nice" means:
 
1 pleasant; agreeable; satisfactory.
2. (of a person) good-natured; kind.
3 fine or subtle.
4 requiring careful attention.
 
If you can read these Persian pomes, you see that for example Ferdowsi, (935–1020 AD), one of the greatest Persian poets, says "kharam ast o nays" (She is graceful and nice) and Asadi, another Persian poet of 11th century, says "Peyghame bad" (Bad message).
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 16:03
Could you write 'nays' in Arabic script please??? It should be clear.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 16:20
OK you needn't anymore. I found it in the text:
خرام است و ناز   - kharam ast o naz. It seems to me that 'nays' is just a different transliteration, probably French-influenced. However it is, it says NAZ - NOON, ALIF (makes the fatha long...thus long A), ZAA...not NAYS (نیس). You know, the most commonly used transliteration used is English-influenced...

for instance, Slovaks use often their own transliteration:
Charám ast o náz. - but if you write it Charam in English, it doesn't make sence, because English 'ch' and Slovak 'ch' represent different sounds.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 16:29
The best option when you give a Persian or Arabic word is to write it in both scripts - Roman will give us hint about vowels, and Arabic will prevent any confusion with consonants. Of course, the most precise would be Arabic with movements included...anyway, how do you type it on the keyboard (I mean, fatha damma kasra and the stuff)??

Also I'm not denying the four words have Avestan origin, I just wanted the Avestan form. Slavic slušati 'to hear' has IE origin, but that doesn't mean PIE had slušati as well - it was kleu.

But we'd better discuss this in the Ger-Iran thread.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 03-Jul-2008 at 16:30
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 19:41
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

OK you needn't anymore. I found it in the text:
خرام است و ناز   - kharam ast o naz. It seems to me that 'nays' is just a different transliteration,


I think I found the movements on keyboard finally:

خَرَامْ اَسْتْ وُ نَازْ - I bet there are mistakes (I don't speak Persian, so there must be). Could you correct it please?
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 19:45
I moved those posts from "Arthur" thread to here, my Persian dictionary has transliterated the Avestan word as "Naêsa", it could be pronounced as "Nahis" in Avestan, "Nays" in Middle Persian and "Naz" in Modern Persian.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 21:01

You clearly don't understand the concept that word meanings change over time. We can see this in the modern sense of the word "gay" (homosexual) compared to the original sense (happy).

Nothing has been changed, from very old times "Gay" meant "Homosexual" in Persian, of course in the modern Persian it is mostly used as one of the worst insults to a person, in fact "Gayidan" or "Gay dadan" means "to f**k".
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 21:20
Maybe in Persian, but in English not earlier than 19th century. It comes from Frankish gahi 'pretty'(?).
And could you give me a reference for the Persian 'gay'?
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 23:28
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You clearly don't understand the concept that word meanings change over time. We can see this in the modern sense of the word "gay" (homosexual) compared to the original sense (happy).


Nothing has been changed, from very old times "Gay" meant "Homosexual" in Persian, of course in the modern Persian it is mostly used as one of the worst insults to a person, in fact "Gayidan" or "Gay dadan" means "to f**k".

Cyrus, you clearly missed the point. The point was that words change meaning. Gay in English originally meant happy, joyful (we'll have a gay old time) now it no longer means that instead it mean homosexual. Do you not agree that words change meanings over time?
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 07:15
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Maybe in Persian, but in English not earlier than 19th century. It comes from Frankish gahi 'pretty'(?).
And could you give me a reference for the Persian 'gay'?
Do you believe that I can't search this Persian word on the web in Iran?
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:00
Originally posted by King John

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You clearly don't understand the concept that word meanings change over time. We can see this in the modern sense of the word "gay" (homosexual) compared to the original sense (happy).


Nothing has been changed, from very old times "Gay" meant "Homosexual" in Persian, of course in the modern Persian it is mostly used as one of the worst insults to a person, in fact "Gayidan" or "Gay dadan" means "to f**k".

Cyrus, you clearly missed the point. The point was that words change meaning. Gay in English originally meant happy, joyful (we'll have a gay old time) now it no longer means that instead it mean homosexual. Do you not agree that words change meanings over time?
There is no reason that the meanings of the wrods change completely, do you agree that two same words could have different origins? "Las" (Lesbian) from "Lasidan"/"Las zadan" and "Gay" (Gay) from "Gayidan/Gay dadan" could be related to "Lady" and "Guy", anyway I believe we can find similar words to both of them in other Indo-European languages too.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There is no reason that the meanings of the wrods change completely


I agree that there is no reason, because there really is no reason for that. However, they did - and that's an undeniable fact.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Maybe in Persian, but in English not earlier than 19th century. It comes from Frankish gahi 'pretty'(?).
And could you give me a reference for the Persian 'gay'?
Do you believe that I can't search this Persian word on the web in Iran?


There is that possibility...you said 'for a long time', so I'm curious about the exact 'length' of the word 'long'. OK and one more thing - bad, naz, div, 'hot' aren't Avestan right??
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

"Las" (Lesbian) from "Lasidan"/"Las zadan" and "Gay" (Gay) from "Gayidan/Gay dadan" could be related to "Lady" and "Guy"


So 'las' is related to 'hlæfdige'? And guy is a relatively young word coming from the male given name Guy.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 10:17
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri



There is no reason that the meanings of the wrods change completely, do you agree that two same words could have different origins? "Las" (Lesbian) from "Lasidan"/"Las zadan" and "Gay" (Gay) from "Gayidan/Gay dadan" could be related to "Lady" and "Guy", anyway I believe we can find similar words to both of them in other Indo-European languages too.


No. Both the words "lesbian" and "gay" in the meaning of homosexual are very new inventions, and well documented at that. This shows how  unfounded all of your arguments actually are. You are doing the same thing over and over again, but this time I'm amazed you insist, considering how futile this is. "Lesbian" was coined in the 18th century, and "gay" is even younger, dating the 20th century. Gay meant indeed happy, merry, but was applied to prostitution and later to homosexuality. Word changes all the time, sometimes very unpredictably. For example, kids in Sweden now use the word "grym" for "cool" - even though grym literally means cruel.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 10:26
Interesting...Slovaks use 'krutý' (cruel) for cool as well. Anyway, English do as well, as it were - 'awesome' has its original meaning of 'arousing fear'.

Edited by Slayertplsko - 04-Jul-2008 at 10:28
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 15:30
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri



There is no reason that the meanings of the wrods change completely, do you agree that two same words could have different origins? "Las" (Lesbian) from "Lasidan"/"Las zadan" and "Gay" (Gay) from "Gayidan/Gay dadan" could be related to "Lady" and "Guy", anyway I believe we can find similar words to both of them in other Indo-European languages too.


No. Both the words "lesbian" and "gay" in the meaning of homosexual are very new inventions, and well documented at that. This shows how  unfounded all of your arguments actually are. You are doing the same thing over and over again, but this time I'm amazed you insist, considering how futile this is. "Lesbian" was coined in the 18th century, and "gay" is even younger, dating the 20th century. Gay meant indeed happy, merry, but was applied to prostitution and later to homosexuality. Word changes all the time, sometimes very unpredictably. For example, kids in Sweden now use the word "grym" for "cool" - even though grym literally means cruel.
Why don't you want to at least believe that Indo-European words have Indo-European origins? Would you please tell me which words where used instead of "lesbian" and "gay" before the 18th century? I hope you don't want to say that there were no Indo-European words for them?!!!
 
Read this thread: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=5415 (read, about 1,000 years ago, what Mahasti Ganjavi the great Persian poetess, composed)
 
Kenaney said:
 
Originally posted by Kenaney

it shows how civilized Iran is.

and Mortaza replaied:
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

Civilization comes with gays? 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223 72>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.