QuoteReplyTopic: questions about people of mongolia Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 03:45
people i think the people of today's mongolia is not exactly the same as mongols of genghis khan's time...
I think that the mongols of genghis khan's time left mongolia and migrated & disappeared in europe, middle east and central asia. Today's mongolian people are of a different origin than Genghis khan's mongol...
The reason i say this is because i see some mongol decent from other countries like india or afghanistan and their personality seems very different from people of mongolia...they can't be the same...
There's 13th century Mongols, 17th century Mongols, 21st century Mongols, and 21st century Mongol descendants. Doesn't mean that modern Mongols have lost their ways.
13th century Mongols were harsh warriors, and carved out a large empire. After the fragmentation, many stayed and assimilated into the nations they ruled, many went back to the steppes, others were annihilated by the civil war.
17th century Mongols were split into 4 main groups; the Halha who were chosen by Chingghis' descendants to protect the legacy, the Tsahar, the Oirat, and the Buryats. Most of the time - the Halha/Tsahar/Buryat Mongols were fighting against the Oirats (Notably the Dzungars). The Turks of this time; the Kazaks, Tatars, etc - all needed a leader who was descendant from Chingghis Khaan to rule the steppes legitimately.
21st century Mongols are united as Mongolian in the modern nation of Mongolia. They consists of all four groups with various tribes, and they uphold the traditions of their forefathers in the 13th century. Of course, the world has evolved since the two world wars, and nowadays they are a peaceful loving people known for their hospitality and heart - doesn't mean that they reject their history or their past.
Then you have 21st century Mongol descendants, there's even supposed to be 16 million Chingghisid descendants in the world. Yes they have assimilated sure, but they have not disappeared. There are many famous people with Mongol blood, including Val Kilmer who speaks of his heritage with pride as well.
As for personality - you get the difference in Mongolia itself. In the industrialised and economical areas such as Ulaanbaatar - the people are very sedentary. Wake up, go to work, come home, play with kids, bang wife, sleep, wake up, continue etc etc. In the countryside however, you still have many nomads, and their hospitality is world famous.
I don't know if I agree with this. Look at court portraits of Yuan emperors. Many of their faces look very much like modern Mongolians. And some historical traits of old Mongols (like red spotted cheeks or grey eyes) can still be seen in some Mongolians.
If you don't categorize Kereit, Naiman, Merkit, Jalair, Tatar, Ongut, Khitan, Oirat, Urianghai, Buriat, Bargo and other dominated tribes during the time of Chinggis Khan as the Mongols, today's Mongols surely aren't so similar to people of Mongol tribe during Chinggis Khan. Half or more of population in Mongolia during Chinggis Khaan were probably Turkic groups, and Tatar, Jalair, Oirat, Buriat, Bargo, Khitan and others were Mongolic groups but even didn't be categorized as the Mongols before Chinggis Khan too.
But I beleive there's no big ethnic or racial difference between today's Mongolia population and those during Chinggis Khaan. the only difference is that most of old tribes including Mongol tribe itself no longer existed and mixed with each other for several hundred years, today's Mongols are more ethnic mixed than the Mongols of old days.
Gentlemen discussions are encouraged and ethnic pride is all well and good. But lets keep the discussion civlised shall we. Right now it is been just that, but we all know that discussions on ethnicity can spiral out of control.
17th century Mongols were split into 4 main groups; the Halha who were chosen by Chingghis' descendants to protect the legacy, the Tsahar, the Oirat, and the Buryats. Most of the time - the Halha/Tsahar/Buryat Mongols were fighting against the Oirats (Notably the Dzungars). The Turks of this time; the Kazaks, Tatars, etc - all needed a leader who was descendant from Chingghis Khaan to rule the steppes legitimately.
far complicated than that you stated. If we focus on the tribe system of Mongolia during Dayan Khan who the greatest Mongol Khaan of Northern Yuan Khanate. There're 3 larger groups, the west Mongols also known as the Oirat, the east Mongols, the far east Mongol as known as Urianghai, and many smaller groups in Siberian forest, such as Buryat and Bargo.
The Oirat sub-clans:
Khoit, Choros, Kerenugud, Khoshuud, Turguud, Bargo-Buryat, Bagatud, and others.
The east Mongols sub-clans:
left wing: Tsahar, Halha and Urianghai;
right wing: Ordos, Yunsiyebu-Kharchin and Tumed-Mongoljin
others: Horchin
The far east Mongols:
Doyan Urianghai, Ujiyed, Onglinud.
The Siberian Mongols:
Buriat and Bargo.
Before Manchu conquest, the Oirad mainly immigrated to central asia, and the far east Mongols were conquered and absorbed by east Mongols. there're 4 groups:
The west Oirad: Zungar(Choros), Hoshuud, Dorbed(Choros), Turgood, Khoid.
The North Mongols: North branch of Halha Mongols including those who were absorbed into Halha, such as Urianghai and Oirat.
The South Mongols
Left wing: Tsahar, South Halha, Horchin and those who were absorbed by them, such as Ujiyed, Onglinud, and north branch of Doyan Urianghai
Right Wing: Tumed, Kharchin, Ordos, South Doyan Urianghai
The Siberian Mongols: Buriat, and Bargo who immigrated to Inner Mongolia later.
By the way, any of those sub-clans above was also multi-ethnic origins. it's hard to clear all in few words. I'm Kharchin Mongol, and ever wrote a post about our tribe's ethnic origins, we may discuss other tribes later.
Hello Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai. I didn't understand your point of view about Tatars. You said:
"Half or more of population in Mongolia during Chinggis Khaan were probably Turkic groups, and Tatar, Jalair, Oirat, Buriat, Bargo, Khitan and others were Mongolic groups but even didn't be categorized as the Mongols before Chinggis Khan too."
Do you believe old Tatars were Mongolic? If so, could you please explain about "old Tatars being Mongolian speaking"? Because old Turkic inscriptions in Mongolia, counted Tatars as a Turkic tribe.
Edited by gok_toruk - 16-Jun-2008 at 11:20
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
No, the original Tatars were Mongolic and probably influenced by both Tongus and Turkic groups, and they are one of the largest Mongolic group in eastern Mongolian steppe after Xian-bei and Rouran. Before time of Chinggis Khaan, people didn't know Mongols and even categorize Mongols as a branch of the Tatars. Today's Turkic Tatar have nothing to do with the original Mongolic Tatars in fact.
Could you please brings facts? According to Turkic inscriptions (Orkhon - Bilge Qaqan), Tatars were considered as Turkic. Unlike 'Khitay's, they were classified among Turkic tribes. '9 Qyrqiz' were also counted in Tatar confederation, in Turkic inscriptions. Tatars inhabited Tugla and Onon long before Mongolian tribes started to settle there.
(By the way, I found an English translation of Turkic inscriptions at www.culture.mn a few monthes ago ; but I can't reach the site now)
Could you please explain why Tatars were Mongolic?
Edited by gok_toruk - 17-Jun-2008 at 06:12
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
There were 30 Tatars and 9 Tatars mentioned by Orkhon inscription, however Gok-Turk didn't considered them as Turkic groups. Tatars live in the east of Gok-Turk and the south of Kyrgyz where, according to Chinese chronicle of Tang dynasty, was inhabited by Shiwei tribal alliance that dominated by Mongolic groups. There's no question that 30 or 9 Tatars recorded by Orkhon inscription and Shiwei recorded by Chinese chronicle were the same groups. Gok-Turk knew Tatar well and called all of his kin tribes the 30 Tatars or the 9 Tatars while Tang China knew Shiwei well and consider all the Shiwei. Chinese gradually called Shiwei the Tatars after Tang dynasty too.
During time of Chinggis Khan, there were 6 Tatar sub-tribes: Tutukliut, Alji, Chagan, Kuin, Tarat, Burqui according to Rashid al-Din, or Ayilut, Burut, Chagan, Alji, Tutaut, Aruhai according to secret history of the Mongols. They live in the east of the mongols, mainly between lake Hulun and Lake Buir, today's Inner Mongolia, where was the homeland of Mongolic Xianbei.
On the other hand, Tatar were probably mutli-ethnic even multi-racial groups. A group of Tatars immigrated to Yin Mountain of Inner Mongolia and was called the white Tatar by Chinese compared to the black Tatar in the North steppes after Uighur Khanate was destroyed by Kyrgyz. There was also a group of Shiwei called the yellow-head Shiwei by Chinese. Mongols also called Tongus tribes the water Tatars during Yuan dynasty.
Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai - 18-Jun-2008 at 19:15
For sure, modern day Tatars are not related to old Tatars as modern day Tatars are Kiptchak-speaking people.
Tatars, according to Turkic Inscriptions, were consisted of 30 tribes, but because only 9 tribes had political existance, so they were also called 9 Tatar. They were 9 Oghuz neighbors; in fact, 30Tatar and 9 Oghuz were almost always allies.
Are shwei and Tatars are of the same group? Didn't Shiwei live somewhere close to Manchuria? Because according to Moslem historians, the Mongolic neighbors of Qyrqizes were "Furi"s who were different from Tatars.
Bilge Khaghan, when talking to Turks, pointed to 30 Tatar, and 9 Oghuz, both:
Also, Qyrqizes who were/are Turkic, were classified inside Tatar confederation, in the Turkic rule era in Mongolia.
According to "Gardizi", Tatars were a subgroup of "Kimek" which itself is a Turkic tribe. And the tribes mentioned by Rashid-ud Din (Fazullah???), to be Tatar sub-groups, are Turkic names:
Tutukliut = Tutuqly (meaning, "of Tutuq origin") + "t", which makes plural in Altaic (or relate the structure to the core word) . "Tutuq" was the title of Kimeks' Khans.
Alji = or as a derivative form, "aliq"
Is it "Kiun" or "Kuni"? Because "quni" is a Turkic TRIBE, and not only a name.
I'm not sure about "Burqui". Is it "Burqu" or "Burqui"? "Burqu" exists in Turkic (maybe also in Mongolian, huh?). It's also the name of the place where Gok Turks had war with Tatar-Oghuz army.
About multi-ethnicity of Tatars... because the name "Tatar" is a general name, meaning "he who dwells in steppe". In this case, so all Mongols, Turks, Tunguses could be called Tatars.
Edited by gok_toruk - 21-Jun-2008 at 09:41
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
in fact, mongols are similar to chinese people.
but they like to be very different.
they even want to say they are European looking when they look like chinese.
very funny people.
i disagree with the idea that they are hospitable people.
i think you are still a wanna-be tengriist!
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During time of Chinggis Khaan, Tatars mainly inhabited in the area between Lake Hulun and Lake Buir, where were also homeland of Xian-bei. The exact land inhabited by Tatars was uncentain during Gok-turk Khanate, but they live in the east of Gok-turk and the south of Kyrgyz. While Shiwei was recorded by Chinese just inhabited in the same area. Shiwei was not in Manchuria, although small party might live in the border area of Inner Mongolia and Manchuria. When Mongols called Tungus tribes the water Tatars, there's in fact no any direct ethnic links between two groups, just like today's Tatars of Russia has no direct ethnic link with the Tatars during Chinggis Khaan.
It's impossible that the area of between lake Hulun and lake Buir was domanited by Turkic groups during time of Gok-Turk, if so, there was probably no Mongolic tribes that immigrated from the area to central Mongolia steppes, including the Mongols. but It's possible that the ruling group of 30 Tatars or 9 Tatars were Turkic. Yuwen XianBei was a Mongolic group, but the ruling tribe was in fact descended from South Xiong-nu, and the Khitans, a larger Mongolic group, were descendants of Yuwen Xianbei.
in fact, mongols are similar to chinese people. but they like to be very different. they even want to say they are European looking when they look like chinese. very funny people. i disagree with the idea that they are hospitable people. i think you are still a wanna-be tengriist!
Not only similar to Chinese(exactly Northern Chinese), but also to Korean, Japanese, even American natives. because they belongs to same race. however, Mongols are northern(Siberian) Mongoloid like many Mongoloid Turkic groups, while Chinese are eastern Mongoloid and Southern Mongoloid, not totally same.
Anyone decribes that Mongols are European looking? lol.
The exact land inhabited by Tatars was uncentain during Gok-turk Khanate, but they live in the east of Gok-turk and the south of Kyrgyz.
According to the inscriptions, Tatars were eastern neighbors of 9 Oghuzes. They were on the eastern side of Tugla, and just by Onon and Kerulen which were later settled by Mongolic tribes.
By the way, Kashghari also considered Tatar a Turkic language.
Edited by gok_toruk - 24-Jun-2008 at 17:34
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
We call Manchu as Golden Tatars. The Tatars you ppl talking about are Black Tatars =Khara Tatar Ofcourse they looked like us = Ofcourse they will steal a women. Ofcourse we will steal a women from them!
Speaking of mixed blood : Mixed one is called "Erliiz" in Mongolia. You can say "Mongol Russian Erliiz", "Hyatad(=Chinese) Mongol Erliiz"... But you can`t say "Kazak Mongol Erliiz" Instead we use "Hasag Mongol" It is kinda strange to say "Tuva Mongol Erliiz"
I can proudly say I`m pure Mongol. But most Mongols who surround me has black hair like Chinese. I have brown hair. My tribe is "Bor Jigin"=Brown warrior/if Jigin is like Jigit=warrior/ not "Bor Jigon". My wife is Kharchin(part of Manchu union). We both are not so blonde. But our daughter : I can proudly say there was no Russians or Buryat Mongols in my family!
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