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Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic

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gok_toruk View Drop Down
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic
    Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 08:56
There are quite a few similar words in Altaic and Yenisseian which have exactly opposite meanings, but I don't know why the meanings have turned to the opposite side. Now, what's the etymology for these Arabic words, Cyrus, please?

Edited by gok_toruk - 27-Sep-2008 at 20:31
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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 13:50
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Thanks Odin for the artice, I've read this before.

By the way, Mongolian language is closer to Turkic, than to Tungus-Manchu (I mean, when you say "the eastern languages gave rise to proto-Mongolic and proto-Tungus-Korean-Japanese). In the reconstructed form of Proto-Altaic (and daughter languages), it can be easily observed that Korean and Japanese are so similar to Proto-Tungus-Manchu (but not to to Mongolian) that one may conclude Korean and Japanese are kind of derivations from Proto-Tungus-Manchu. 

Anyhow, Prof. Starostin classifies Turkic and Mongolian, both, in Western group of Altaic languages, while Tungus-Manchu is the central and Korean and Japanese are the eastern branch. 

Mongolian, especially in its Proto form or old Written Mongolian is much more similar to Turkic, than to Tungus-Manchu.



The history of the Altaic languages are a pain in the rear end. I have just started reading about the historical lingustics of the family and it's tough trying to figure out what are borrowings and what are cognates. Confused
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 06:59

Yes, but there are some techniques. For instnace, how the phonetic criteria may serve to distinguish the borrowings from the inherited cognates:

the correspondences of Turkic "l", "r" ( late Turkic "s", "z", after the separation of the Bulgarian-Chuvash branch) vs. Mongolian "sh", "s" respectively indicate the borrowings from Turkic into Mongolian.

Also, to distinguish borrowings from real common words, Prof. Starostin has listed lots of words which are preserved in Tungs-Manchu and Turkic, but not in Mongolian.

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  Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 23:47
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Also, to distinguish borrowings from real common words, Prof. Starostin has listed lots of words which are preserved in Tungs-Manchu and Turkic, but not in Mongolian.

Really? Jeez, that really ruins the credibility of the Wiki article on Altaic, which claims:

"They argued that while there were words shared by Turkic and Mongolic, by Mongolic and Tungusic, and by all three, there were none shared by Turkic and Tungusic but not Mongolic."

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 10:45

Here are some examples: 

Proto – Altaic: algi
Meaning: net, sieve

Proto-Turkic: elge (to sift)
Modern Turkic: elge, ele – elgek, elek (sieve)

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: alga (net)
Manchu: algan
Nanai: alga

---------

Proto – Altaic: aybi
Meaning: a kind of duck

Proto-Turkic: ebü-r-(d)ek
Modern Turkic: ewürdek, ördek

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: abu
Even: awulduqa

---------

Proto – Altaic: ani
Meaning: not, negative verb

Proto-Turkic: en
Modern Turkic: an

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: a(n)
Even: an, ach
Ulcha: ana

---------

Proto – Altaic: baka
Meaning: to look, watch 

Proto-Turkic: bak 
Modern Turkic: baq, bak

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: baka (to find, obtain)
Evenki: baka
Even: baq

---------
Proto – Altaic: bang’ki
Meaning: to kick 

Proto-Turkic: böng’k 
Modern Turkic: möng, möngkü

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: bang-sala
Nanai: bangsala

---------

Proto – Altaic: basi
Meaning: payment

Proto-Turkic: basig (a: a kind of tax - b: a coin)
Modern Turkic: bas (payment)

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: basa
Manchu: basa, base

---------

Proto – Altaic: j(io)ro
Meaning: a big number

Proto-Turkic: yur (hundred)
Modern Turkic: yüz

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: jir
Manchu: jiri, jirun

---------

Proto – Altaic: umV (uma, ume, umi, umo, umu)
Meaning: fire; to burn

Proto-Turkic: uma-
Modern Turkic: uma-t, uma-y

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: omV (oma, ome, omi, omo, omu) = hearth
Oroch: umuxi
Nanai: oma

---------

Proto – Altaic: tuti
Meaning: a beat, strike

Proto-Turkic: tüt (to quarrel)
Modern Turkic: tüte (to be angry at somebody)

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: tute (sword, spear)
Evenki: tute-ken

---------

Proto – Altaic: suri
Meaning: to go away, drive away

Proto-Turkic: sür
Modern Turkic: sür, sir

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: suru
Evenki: suru

---------

Proto – Altaic: kiuso
Meaning: to vomit

Proto-Turkic: kus
Modern Turkic: qus, kus

Proto-Tungus-Manchu: xüse
Ulcha, Oroq, Nanai: xuse

Since this is going to be a long list, it requires another topic.

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