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Slayertplsko
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Topic: Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:14 |
I'm sorry, I can't help you with Slavic 'daga'...maybe it should have 'z'/'zh' instead of 'g'?? Then it could mean 'rain'. I've noticed this consonant shift in a few words.
PGmc 'kuningaz'....PSlv 'kunedzi' PGmc 'kwenon'.....in Slavic languages 'žena', OCS 'zena' (both probably from PIE 'gwen') PGmc 'gulth'.....in Slavic 'zloto'/'zoloto'/'zlato' (PIE 'ghol' meaning yellow, green)
But I don't know about any 'daga' connected to sky, heaven. What about your copula ('to be'), to discuss the grammar?? How do you use it in Turkic languages?
Do you say it like IE 'my horse IS green' or like in Arabic 'my horse green'??
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:26 |
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
That's wrong again. And you have well proved that you don't think!
Firstly, your source again support us - they say that 'hengest' means stallion, not 'follow'. You even wrote this part in bolds here! As for the name Hengest, it says it comes from the word for 'stallion'. That's normal, that's how the names emerge. For instance, Charles comes from the germanic word for 'freeman' (ceorl in OE). Or do you wanna say that 'Vladimir' predates the words 'vladar' and 'mir'??
As for the hanger-on - this is...OMG!! It's a compound of 'on' and 'hanger', and the latter is a noun created from the verb 'hang'. I think it's obvious, I can't even imagine how you could link those two. Cyrus, start to think.
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It is obvious both words come from Old English verb "hengan" which means "to hang on, to depend on, to rely on", I don't say "henchman/hengestman" never means "horseman", there are several words which have different meanings from different origins but we are discussing a word which means "follower/dependant", "Hengest" could mean "Stallion" but why not "the most dependent"(henge+-est)?
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:43 |
It is obvious both words come from Old English verb "hengan" which means "to hang on, to depend on, to rely on", I don't say "henchman/hengestman" never means "horseman", there are several words which have different meanings from different origins but we are discussing a word which means "follower/dependant", "Hengest" could mean "Stallion" but why not "the most dependent"(henge+-est)? |
Simply because it didn't mean that when it was used. Words change with time. Wyrd used to mean fate, now it has a different meaning of out of the ordinary and is spelled Weird.
It seems the Scotish were the ones who made it into something other then someone who attends horses, and it was more modern writters who furthered it if we are to believe wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchmen read the etymology of it there, I provided it in my previous post for you too.
By the way, I can't find the Old English word hengAn, but I did find HengEn which means: hanging; cross; rack, torture; imprisonment
Edited by SearchAndDestroy - 09-Jun-2008 at 20:46
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:51 |
Well, I don't know about shift from "g" to "zh" in Indo-European; but in Altaic, if that "z/zh" is a later change from "sh/ch", so that's possible to consider this case, because "g/K" can change into "sh/ch". What about "doga"? Isn't there anything like "doga" in Slavic? Anyhow, about "to be": Almost all modern languages (of Altaic family) use "to be" the Indo-European style. There are a couple of "to be" roots: 1- Proto-Altaic "biyu" (exactly means "be") 2- Proto-Altaic "era" (is used with suffixes; "to be") For instance, Turkic "men-yng (or "menym") at-ym yashyl erken (or "eken") " = my horse is green.
Edited by gok_toruk - 09-Jun-2008 at 20:54
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:58 |
The verb is 'hangian'. Hengest can be found in almost every Germanic language, so it's much older than OE.
'heng' is past 3rd singular of 'hón' (past participle is 'hangen'), which means to hang, to crucify. 'hengen' means a rack, cross, torture, imprisonment. 'henge' means 'hanging'/'hängend' (pres.part.) according to Koebler.
'hengest' is stallion, gelding, horse...simply horse.
I can't find anywhere anything else than horse. Now, that's not a bad point henge+est, but: 1, have you ever seen -est added to a participle? 2, since it's common Germanic, it would have to be created at least in PGmc and the form is 'khangistas'
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:01 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Well, I don't know about shift from "g" to "zh" in Indo-European; but in Altaic, if that "z/zh" is a later change from "sh/ch", so that's possible to consider this case, because "g/K" can change into "sh/ch". What about "doga"? Isn't there anything like "doga" in Slavic? Anyhow, about "to be": Almost all modern languages (of Altaic family) use "to be" the Indo-European style. There are a couple of "to be" roots: 1- Proto-Altaic "biyu" (exactly means "be") 2- Proto-Altaic "era" (is used with suffixes; "to be") For instance, Turkic "men-yng (or "menym") at-ym yashyl erken (or "eken") " = my horse is green. |
About 'doga', well it's a race of canine and it's quite international I think.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:03 |
DOGA!!! Yeeees....rainbow, it didn't occur to me, and it's so simple OMG (maybe it's because I haven't seen a rainbow for years) dúha in Slovak, I don't know about southern and eastern branch, but I would bet they have G instead of H there - it's a common difference.
Edited by Slayertplsko - 09-Jun-2008 at 21:06
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 05:31 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
English First relates to Avestan fraeshta ( Avestan Dictionary) and Middle Persin Frast which however means "first" too but originally means "foremost". |
I question that. Do you have a source? In Scandinavian there are different: först, which means and is pronouced like first, and främst, which means foremost, and relates to "being in front".
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Persian -> English
Beh -> Good/Well
Behtar -> Better
Behest (Behtarin) -> Best
Behbeud -> Well-being
Behdar -> Well-doer
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King John
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 06:43 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
That's wrong again. And you have well proved that you don't think!Firstly, your source again support us - they say that 'hengest' means stallion, not 'follow'. You even wrote this part in bolds here!As for the name Hengest, it says it comes from the word for 'stallion'. That's normal, that's how the names emerge. For instance, Charles comes from the germanic word for 'freeman' (ceorl in OE). Or do you wanna say that 'Vladimir' predates the words 'vladar' and 'mir'??As for the hanger-on - this is...OMG!!It's a compound of 'on' and 'hanger', and the latter is a noun created from the verb 'hang'. I think it's obvious, I can't even imagine how you could link those two. Cyrus, start to think. |
It is obvious both words come from Old English verb "hengan" which means "to hang on, to depend on, to rely on", I don't say "henchman/hengestman" never means "horseman", there are several words which have different meanings from different origins but we are discussing a word which means "follower/dependant", "Hengest" could mean "Stallion" but why not "the most dependent"(henge+-est)? |
One problem Cyrus, hengan isn't to be found in an Old English Dictionary. There is the verb hegan (to preform, achieve; hold a meeting) 1, the nouns hengen (hanging, cross, rack, torture, imprisonment) and hengest, hengst [both fall under the same dictionary entry] (stallion, steed, horse, gelding) 2. The Old English verb that means to hang is actually hón and it means to hang, suspend, crucify, put on (clothes) 3, 4. With this linguistic evidence how can you say that Hengest means hanger-on or follower? The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence to support what you are saying. In fact the evidence points to the contrary as other members have pointed out. Where are you getting your information from? It is clearly very flawed. Will you please stop corrupting language evidence to show things that the evidence doesn't support. Especially when it is so easy to prove your claims to be utterly preposterous and totally incorrect.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 08:35 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
English First relates to Avestan fraeshta ( Avestan Dictionary) and Middle Persin Frast which however means "first" too but originally means "foremost". |
I question that. Do you have a source? In Scandinavian there are different: först, which means and is pronouced like first, and främst, which means foremost, and relates to "being in front".
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Persian -> English
Beh -> Good/Well
Behtar -> Better
Behest (Behtarin) -> Best
Behbeud -> Well-being
Behdar -> Well-doer |
Thanks.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 15:45 |
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=2932&root=config
Proto-Germanic: *xánxan-/xangán- vb, *xangḗn- vb., *xangián- vb.; *xanxitjan- vb., *xanxaskēn, *xánxitōn
Meaning: hang
IE etymology:
Gothic: *hahan st. `hang, keep in suspense'; fɔr(a)-hah n. (a) `curtain'
Old Norse: hanga st. `hangen'; hǟtta wk. `Gefahr laufen, wagen', hǟtta f. `Gefahr', hāski m. `Gefahr'; hengja wk. `hängen'
Norwegian: hanga vb.; hätta sbs., vb.; hengja vb.
Swedish: hänga vb. tr., itr.; dial. häta; dial. häjta vb.; (ält.) hask(e)lig `grässlich', dial. haskeli `schrecklich'
Danish: hänge vb.; hätte sbs., vrb.; hände vb.
Old English: hōn; hangian; hengan `hängen'
Old Frisian: hūa; hangia
Old Saxon: hāhan; hangon
Dutch: { gehengen `erlauben' }
Old High German: hāhan; hangēn; hengen
Middle High German: hāhen red. v. (prt. hinc, hie) tr. 'hängen', intr. 'hangen'; hangen st. intr. 'hangen'; hɛngen wk. 'hangen lassen; nachjagen, nachhängen'; vür-hanc st. m. `curtain'
German: { hangen; hängen }
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:18 |
Back to topic again: Proto-Yenisseian: aj Meaning: I
Ket: at Kottish: ay Arin: ay
Proto Indo-European: ??? English: I
Notes: Could anyone please give the Proto-Indo-European form?
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:20 |
Proto – Altaic: bi Meaning: 1st person pronoun
a) I Proto-Turkic: be- Modern Turkic: men, ben Mongolian: bi, miniy, meni Tungus-Manchu: bi, bu Proto-Japanese: ba Old Japanese: wa Hateruma (of Modern Japanese): banu Proto Indo-European: ??? English: me German: mir French: moi b) we
Proto-Turkic: bi-r Meaning: we Modern Turkic: biz, e-byr, miz Mongolian: bide Tungus-Manchu: mes, mit, buta, biti
Proto Indo-European: ??? English: we German: wir
Notes:
Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Jun-2008 at 19:23
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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King John
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:20 |
Cyrus, hón and hengan are not different verbs. Hengan is the past participle form of hón. Hangian on the other hand is an intr. verb meaning to hang, be hanged; depend, rest on; (as a trans verb) hang, suspend. By the way you still didn't answer my question.
Edited by King John - 10-Jun-2008 at 18:25
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:22 |
Proto – Altaic: si Meaning: thou
Proto-Turkic: se- Modern Turkic: sen Tungus-Manchu: si Old Japanese: si Proto-Yenisseian: ʔaw Arin: au Yugh: u Pumpokol: ue Proto Indo-European: te, tu Hittite: ti- (your) Old Indian: te Armenian: du Old Greek: sü Slavic: ti Baltic: tu, -tei Notes:
Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Jun-2008 at 18:29
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:46 |
What does 'hengan' mean? Hängen has different meanings in German, it has even different past and past participle forms. But 'hängen' itself doesn't mean 'to depend on' (in the meaning of condition or cause...this idiomatic meaning is attested first from 1413), that's 'abhängen (von jemandem/etwas - someone/something)', which has a few meanings as well. Hanger-on is from 1549. Both 'depend' and 'hang' originally meant 'to suspend'/'to be suspended', and the chande in meaning came much later.
Still, 'henge' is a participle and doesn't go with -est to my knowledge, and means 'hanging' and is the present participle of 'hangian' ('hengan' too??). Old Teutonic form is 'hangjan', but the stallion has an 'x' in the beginning.
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Back to topic again: Proto-Yenisseian: aj Meaning: I
Ket: at Kottish: ay Arin: ay
Proto Indo-European: ??? English: I
Notes: Could anyone please give the Proto-Indo-European form?
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The English form is originally ic, I appeared first after the Norman invasion. PIE: h₁eǵ, Latin ego, PGmc eka, Gothic ik, Old Norse ek, Icelandic ég, Norwegian jeg, Swedish jäg (?), German ich...and so on Slavic ja, French je, Spanish yo, Italian io
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:57 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Proto – Altaic: bi Meaning: 1st person pronoun
a) I
Proto-Turkic: be- Modern Turkic: men, ben Mongolian: bi, miniy, meni Tungus-Manchu: bi, bu Proto-Japanese: ba Old Japanese: wa Hateruma (of Modern Japanese): banu
Proto Indo-European: ??? English: me German: mir French: moir
b) we
Proto-Turkic: bi-r Meaning: we Modern Turkic: biz, e-byr, miz Mongolian: bide Tungus-Manchu: mes, mit, buta, biti
Proto Indo-European: ??? English: we German: wir
Notes:
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SG: English 'me' is an objective form, German 'mir' is dative form, French should be 'moi', and it's a disjunctive form. PL: PIE: wei
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 19:01 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Proto – Altaic: si Meaning: thou
Proto-Turkic: se- Modern Turkic: sen Tungus-Manchu: si Old Japanese: si
Proto-Yenisseian: ʔaw Arin: au Yugh: u Pumpokol: ue
Proto Indo-European: te, tu Hittite: ti- (your) Old Indian: te Armenian: du Old Greek: sü Slavic: ti Baltic: tu, -tei
Notes:
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PIE form is tuH.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 19:25 |
I made a mistake in typing about French "moi". Thanks Slayertplsko for the corrections.
Edited by gok_toruk - 10-Jun-2008 at 19:26
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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