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gok_toruk
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Topic: Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:19 |
I'm not here to defend on Nostratic Theory's side. I've only been trying to compare some primary words in these three language families lately. I hope this won't be one of those perviously marooned topics about linguistics. I've started with numbers. One thing I've noticed in these 3 language families is that: as a model, almost all changes in consonants are only in the beginning position, and are only among these 5 cases (which all have close origins):
s / sh / p / q / ng:
“s”/”sh” <--> “p”
“p” <--> “q”
“ng” --> 1- n 2- g/gh/q (which could then change into "p") 3- to drop the nasal
“n” and “p” are sometimes added to the middle of the words (why?).
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:20 |
Proto – Altaic: biuri
Meaning: one
Mongolian: büri (each one) Turkic: bir/pir, biri (Also “pitew/pitöw”, “unit; one”in Turkmen) Middle Korean: piris (at first, start) Old Japanese: pjito Proto Indo-European: pery- English: first (it points to “pirst” where “st” is a suffix) German: erste (German has lost “p/b” in the beginning of the word) Notes: Two normal changes: 1- Shifts between consonants with the same origins (in this case, “r” with “d/t”). 2- Loss of “p/b” in the beginning position.
Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Jun-2008 at 10:50
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:28 |
Proto – Altaic: pioke
Meaning: pair, couple
Mongolian: (h)ekire Turkic: iki, eki Sari Yughur: shiki Shor: iygi Middle Korean: pyky- (next, following) Old Japanese: p(w)oka (other) English: second (just like Sari Yughur, the starting “p” has changed to “s”; “nd” is just an suffix here) Notes: Turkic and Mongolian both has lost the Altaic “p” in the beginning; but Sari Yughur reveals this by preserving the consonant (here, with “sh” which is of the same origin). Shifts between “p” and “s/sh” (in Indo-European and Altaic correspondence) can be found also in other words like Turkic “sik-mek” and German “fick-en” (sorry for impoliteness): both have the same meanings; “mek” in the Turkic word as well as “en” in the German word are only suffixes.
Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Jun-2008 at 11:00
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:29 |
Proto – Altaic: toy-
Meaning: four
Mongolian: dör-ben Turkic: tör-t, dör-t Karachay: tyort Proto Japanese: dy-, do- Proto - Yenisseian: siy- Kottish: shey-che Arin: shay-a Proto Indo-European: ke-twor- Old Indian: turiya (consisting of four parts) Avestan: tuirya Armenian: chor-s Notes:
Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Jun-2008 at 11:01
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:30 |
Proto – Altaic: paynga Meaning: five
Proto-Ainu: as-ki Ainu: ashikne Turkic: besh/bes Proto – Yenisseian: Ket: qak, qang Yugh: xak, xayeng Proto Indo-European: penke, penkwe Persian: panj Albanian: pese Notes: Lack of “n’ in Turkic “besh” is just like the case in: Latin “et” (“and”) and German “und” or Turkic “bat”/”bit” and Japanese “pinti”. Ainu hast lost the initial “p/b”.
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:32 |
Proto – Yenisseian: saxV (saxa, saxe, saxi, saxo, saxu)/paxV (paxa, paxe, paxo, paxo, paxu) Meaning: six
Proto Indo-European: swek's, sek's Old Indian: sat, sas- Tocharian: sak Baltic: shesh Notes: What about Turkic “sekyz” which means “eight”? The Proto-Altaic root for this word is “cha-/sha-” or “che-/she-”.
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:44 |
Proto – Altaic: ngad
Meaning: seven
Proto-Ainu: adeh-dan (“dan” is a suffix)
Turkic: yeti
Sari Yughur: Ye-x-ti
Yakut: Setti
Chuvash: sech
Fu-yü Girgis: chiti
Karagas: tedy
Dolgan: hety
Proto Indo-European: se-p-t
Old Greek: hepta
Old Indian: sapta
Avestan: hapta
Slavic: sedm
Notes: Again shift between 5 consonants in the initial position.
There’s a “p” in the middle of the Indo-European word which Altaic lacks it. This is like Proto–Altaic “cha/sha” or “che/she” which means “eight”. Turkic has changed the initial “sh” to “s” and added the suffix “kür”: Proto – Turkic form is “se-kür” while Tungus-Manchu has added a “p” to the middle of the word to make “cha-p-kun”. Sari Yughur in this case, has added “x” to the middle of the word.
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:48 |
Proto-Indo-European: okto
Meaning: eight
Old Greek: okto, ogdo(wo)1
Tocharian: okt
German: acht
Of Turkic Languages:
Yakut: agys
Dolgan: agys
Notes:
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:06 |
Turkic: on
Meaning: ten
Ainu: wan
Proto–Japanese: təwə
Old Japanese: towo
Proto – Yenisseian: 1- tu- (tu-n) 2- tuk
Kottish: ton-tuku
Proto Indo-European: dek'm- (ten; hundred)
Old Greek: deka
Notes: Indo-European final “m” has turned into “n” or “ng” in Proto-Yenisseian.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:17 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Proto – Altaic: biuri
Meaning: one
Mongolian: büri (each one) Turkic: bir/pir, biri (Also “pitew/pitöw”, “unit; one”in Turkmen) Middle Korean: piris (at first, start) Old Japanese: pjito
Proto Indo-European: pery- English: first (it points to “pirst” where “st” is a suffix) German: erste (German has lost “p/b” in the beginning of the word)
Notes: Two normal changes: 1- Shifts between consonants with the same origins (in this case, “r” with “d/t”). 2- Loss of “p/b” in the beginning position.
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gok_toruk, it is good that you also know Persian langauge.
English First relates to Avestan fraeshta ( Avestan Dictionary) and Middle Persin Frast which however means "first" too but originally means "foremost".
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:28 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Proto – Altaic: biuri Meaning: one
Mongolian: büri (each one) Turkic: bir/pir, biri (Also “pitew/pitöw”, “unit; one”in Turkmen) Middle Korean: piris (at first, start) Old Japanese: pjito
Proto Indo-European: pery- English: first (it points to “pirst” where “st” is a suffix) German: erste (German has lost “p/b” in the beginning of the word)
Notes: Two normal changes: 1- Shifts between consonants with the same origins (in this case, “r” with “d/t”). 2- Loss of “p/b” in the beginning position.
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The Proto Germanic form is 'furisto', which is an adjective, a superlative of 'fur' and means 'foremost'. The 'f' is the result of Grimm's law, in this case it's PIE p => PGmc f.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 12:01 |
There is also another word for "first" in Persian langauges, this word is Nekhost which originaly means "nearest". (Compare with English Next)
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 12:38 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Proto – Altaic: pioke
Meaning: pair, couple
Mongolian: (h)ekire Turkic: iki, eki Sari Yughur: shiki Shor: iygi Middle Korean: pyky- (next, following) Old Japanese: p(w)oka (other)
English: second (just like Sari Yughur, the starting “p” has changed to “s”; “nd” is just an suffix here)
Notes: Turkic and Mongolian both has lost the Altaic “p” in the beginning; but Sari Yughur reveals this by preserving the consonant (here, with “sh” which is of the same origin).
Shifts between “p” and “s/sh” (in Indo-European and Altaic correspondence) can be found also in other words like Turkic “sik-mek” and German “fick-en” (sorry for impoliteness): both have the same meanings; “mek” in the Turkic word as well as “en” in the German word are only suffixes.
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This one is interesting, English word "Second" comes from Latin "Sequi" which means "follow", "s" is changed to "h" in the Iranian languages, so in Avestan "Hak" mean "follow", as you know "Hakhaman" (Achaemenian/Achaemenes, the most famous Persian dynasty) means "faithful follower", comapre with English "henchman"
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 12:45 |
This one wouldn't work. Henchman comes from hengest+man, and hengest meant 'stallion'. O.Fris. hengst, Du. hengest, Ger. Hengst "stallion", from PGmc khangistas.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 13:45 |
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
This one wouldn't work. Henchman comes from hengest+man, and hengest meant 'stallion'. O.Fris. hengst, Du. hengest, Ger. Hengst "stallion", from PGmc khangistas. |
This is either a fake etymology or "hengest" originally meant "follow" (a horse can be a good follower), anyway it is obvious that English "Hence" relates to Latin origin words "Sequence" & "Consequence".
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Flipper
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 13:48 |
Interesting studies gok toruk...
So do you suggest that words like those you mentioned belong to the a very early proto language stretching back before the creation of IE, Altaic etc language groups?
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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:29 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Originally posted by Slayertplsko
This one wouldn't work. Henchman comes from hengest+man, and hengest meant 'stallion'. O.Fris. hengst, Du. hengest, Ger. Hengst "stallion", from PGmc khangistas. | This is either a fake etymology or "hengest" originally meant "follow" (a horse can be a good follower), anyway it is obvious that English "Hence" relates to Latin origin words "Sequence" & "Consequence". |
Yours is correct yeah?? So what is your source?? No it is correct. 'hengest' meant stallion. 1360, hengestman "high-ranking servant," originally "groom," from man + O.E. hengest "horse, stallion, gelding," from P.Gmc. *khangistas (cf. O.Fris. hengst, Du. hengest, Ger. Hengst "stallion"), probably lit. "best at springing," from PIE *kenku- (cf. Gk. kekiein "to gush forth;" Lith. sokti "to jump, dance;" Breton kazek "a mare," lit. "that which belongs to a stallion"). Became obsolete, but retained in Scottish as "personal attendant of a Highland chief," in which sense Scott revived it in literary Eng. in 1810. Sense of "obedient or unscrupulous follower" is first recorded 1839, probably based on a misunderstanding of the word as used by Scott. As for 'hence'. This is - no offence - a stupid remark. 'hence' relates to 'thence' and 'whence' and is of Germanic origin. And here is sequence: 1387, "hymn sung after the Hallelujah and before the Gospel," from O.Fr. sequence "answering verses" (13c.), from M.L. sequentia "a following, a succession," from L. sequentem (nom. sequens), prp. of sequi "to follow" (see sequel). In Church use, a partial loan-translation of Gk. akolouthia, from akolouthos "following." General sense of "succession," also "a sequence at cards," appeared 1575. Cyrus you can get your nationalist pride out of your system in 'Saxon and Scythian' thread. It won't work well with Nostratic theory.
Edited by Slayertplsko - 08-Jun-2008 at 14:29
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Slayertplsko
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:31 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Interesting studies gok toruk...
So do you suggest that words like those you mentioned belong to the a very early proto language stretching back before the creation of IE, Altaic etc language groups?
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Well, it is very probable and it is suggested by linguists too. It definitely makes sence, but...we know too little to work out.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:54 |
It's more a question that we know so little, we can generate a whole lot of widely different but equally valid versions.
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gok_toruk
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Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 16:05 |
Hello Everybody. Sorry for this a little bit too late reply. I don't know about "fraeshta" Cyrus. That's something new to me, thanks. Also, it's interesting to see Latin "Sequi" means "follow"; Korean "pyky" means "following" too. Thanks Slayerpltsko to point out the exact root ("fur" and means 'foremost'). One thing I'll say for these things is that we shall not expect the exact meaning in different langauges, but rather "almost-the-same" meanings: "Fur" meaning "foremost" is still like Korean "piri" which means "start". Even in a single language family like Altaic, for instance, despite the single root "biuri", you see it means "one" in Turkic, "each one" in Mongolian and "start" in Korean. Huh?
Edited by gok_toruk - 08-Jun-2008 at 16:12
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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