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Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic |
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gok_toruk 
Arch Duke 
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
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 Topic: Indo-European, Yenisseian, AltaicPosted: 16-Jun-2008 at 10:45 |
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Here are some examples: Proto – Altaic: algi Proto – Altaic: aybi --------- Proto – Altaic: ani --------- --------- --------- --------- Proto – Altaic: j(io)ro --------- Proto – Altaic: umV (uma, ume, umi, umo, umu) --------- --------- Proto – Altaic: suri --------- Since this is going to be a long list, it requires another topic. |
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Odin
Shogun 
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 23:47 |
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Really? Jeez, that really ruins the credibility of the Wiki article on Altaic, which claims:
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 06:59 |
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Yes, but there are some techniques. For instnace, how the phonetic criteria may serve to distinguish the borrowings from the inherited cognates: the correspondences of Turkic "l", "r" ( late Turkic "s", "z", after the separation of the Bulgarian-Chuvash branch) vs. Mongolian "sh", "s" respectively indicate the borrowings from Turkic into Mongolian. Also, to distinguish borrowings from real common words, Prof. Starostin has listed lots of words which are preserved in Tungs-Manchu and Turkic, but not in Mongolian. |
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Odin
Shogun
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 13:50 |
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The history of the Altaic languages are a pain in the rear end. I have just started reading about the historical lingustics of the family and it's tough trying to figure out what are borrowings and what are cognates.  |
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 08:56 |
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There are quite a few similar words in Altaic and Yenisseian which have exactly opposite meanings, but I don't know why the meanings have turned to the opposite side. Now, what's the etymology for these Arabic words, Cyrus, please?
Edited by gok_toruk - 27-Sep-2008 at 20:31 |
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 08:49 |
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Thanks Odin for the artice, I've read this before. By the way, Mongolian language is closer to Turkic, than to Tungus-Manchu (I mean, when you say "the eastern languages gave rise to proto-Mongolic and proto-Tungus-Korean-Japanese). In the reconstructed form of Proto-Altaic (and daughter languages), it can be easily observed that Korean and Japanese are so similar to Proto-Tungus-Manchu (but not to to Mongolian) that one may conclude Korean and Japanese are kind of derivations from Proto-Tungus-Manchu. Anyhow, Prof. Starostin classifies Turkic and Mongolian, both, in Western group of Altaic languages, while Tungus-Manchu is the central and Korean and Japanese are the eastern branch. Mongolian, especially in its Proto form or old Written Mongolian is much more similar to Turkic, than to Tungus-Manchu. Edited by gok_toruk - 12-Jun-2008 at 08:50 |
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator 
King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Online Status: Offline Posts: 6240 |
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Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:49 |
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It seems this word has an opposite meaning in Arabic, Ghara (غراء), Nur/Nuwar (نور), Nahar (نهار), ... mean "white, light, day, bright".
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Odin
Shogun
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 00:15 |
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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Odin
Shogun
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 00:10 |
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I know, but I don't know how to get the 1 subscripted.  |
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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Slayertplsko
Chieftain 
Joined: 13-May-2008 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1061 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 21:41 |
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It's usually represented by 'h1'.
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Odin
Shogun
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 21:28 |
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PIE: *'ego The apostrophe represents some laryngeal consonant like a glottal stop. |
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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Odin
Shogun
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 21:14 |
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noir -> (nominative case) nigrus (root: niger) "the dark" -> (nominative case) *nekwos "the dark, the night" A possible proto-Eurasiatic form is "*nekwar" |
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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Slayertplsko
Chieftain
Joined: 13-May-2008 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1061 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 20:30 |
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I'll try to find french etymology dic on the web...hope I can still read enough French to understand  |
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Odin
Shogun
Joined: 04-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 211 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 20:26 |
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I am a supporter of a version of Joseph Greenberg's Eurasiatic Hypothesis linking IE, Uralic, and Altaic. I don't think there was a Proto-Eurasiatic language. Instead I suggest that there was a large sprachbund that formed across northern Eurasia as the Last Ice Age ended and the ice sheets retreated, the various languages eventually becoming mixed together and coming to share many features, especially in vocabulary. As the world continued to warm forests spread across northern Eurasia and thus made movement harder, causing the sprachbund to break up.
--- IMO the features of languages in this sprachbund were: An analytic morphology, with languages in the west tending towards becoming a more fully isolating, languages in the center tending towards developing inflection and agglutination, and languages in the east tending towards becoming agglutive. An SOV word order The verb system may have been Ergative-Absolutive. ----- The western languages gave rise to proto-Indo-European and perhaps a now-extinct group of languages of northern Europe that acted as a substratum influence on Proto-Germanic. A book I have called The World's Major Languages says that that PIE evolved from a language with an isolating and analytic morphology and that had an Ergative verb system. The central languages gave rise to proto-Uralic, proto-Turkic, and influenced the western language that became PIE as well as the eastern languages that became proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolic The eastern languages gave rise to proto-Mongolic and proto-Tungus-Korean-Japanese. |
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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
-Arnold J. Toynbee |
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gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz Joined: 28-Apr-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1831 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 18:18 |
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Not to change the topic (!!!), but does anyone know the Proto-Indo-European root for French "noir"? Proto-Altaic form for the word "black" is "karu". Although I've mentioned this before in this topic, but I was just wondering if a Proto form existed as " ng'uwara":
both Indo-European and Altaic has reduced the initial nasal "ng", but in their own ways: a) French has reduced the nasal "ng" to "n" to make "noir" (which is pronounced "nuwar") b) Altaic has reduced the nasal "ng" to "g" to make "qara".
Could anyone help me with this, please? Any idea? Edited by gok_toruk - 11-Jun-2008 at 18:21 |
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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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King John
Chieftain
Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 16:56 |
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Cyrus, did I say there is no form, hengan, no what I said was that it is not a separate, different verb. It is a participial form of hón (to hang).
By the way don't presume to know what I am going to say. The Oxford Dictionary is a reliable source, but that doesn't mean that it is infallible. |
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Slayertplsko
Chieftain
Joined: 13-May-2008 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1061 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 15:34 |
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OK, I trust you that the verb exists in this form, but whence have you got its meaning - i.e. 'to rely on'? In every dictionary I checked, I can only see 'to hang', 'to depend', 'to be sustained' etc.
You did in fact, but never mind; that's beside the point. |
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Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Online Status: Offline Posts: 6240 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 13:29 |
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Do you have an Oxford dictionary?
 -> hengan ‘to hang’, however I know that you will say Oxford is not a reliable dictionary!!  Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 11-Jun-2008 at 13:32 |
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Slayertplsko
Chieftain
Joined: 13-May-2008 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1061 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 08:53 |
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Hanging stones in OE: henge stānas. And what about hencg meaning hinge??
And then you would have to explaing why it is /stəʊnhɛndʒ/ and not /stəʊnhɛŋ/. |
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King John
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Joined: 01-Dec-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1366 |
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Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 06:58 |
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If you did a little research you would know that hence comes from the Old English word hennes. Here is the entry for hence in the Online Etymology Dictionary:
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