Chameria (south epirus) Genocide

Originally posted by xristar The scale is different. The chams were some tens of thousands, armenians were some millions. "Genocide" is a heavy word that shouldn't be used everywhere. The Chams weren't "genocised". They were expelled.

Originally posted by kurt See, its irritating when you're country is accused of a genocide when no one will hear your side of the story to it, isn't it? Now you know how us Turks feel. You guys are so quick to point out that the Albanians were collaborating with invaders, well its the same with us, yet somehow we're still guilty of genocide whilst with you its just self-defence.

Easy there kurt. Turks & Greeks get along well here. I don't remember anyone bringing up that issue in the last two years. You don't need to get defensive or so.

Oh boy. Off to the minefield, and its watchdogs you go.

What utter tripe.  North Epirus belongs to Greece and has an ethnic Greek population.  South Epirus was only ever Albanian in Ethnic Albanian's wet dreams.

You are not refuting my arguments, you're simply restating yours. It seems I have been unable to make my argument well. Let me try again.

yep i'll be watching this thread.

We are on a history forum, right? So lets get a historical POV.

From as far as the world can remember there have been massacres and displacement of entire populations. Other group simply had to renounce their specific identity.

Just a quick list of the first examples going through my mind and limited to the Mediterranean: displacement of the Paulian sect by the Byzantines, destruction of the Mozarab, Muslim and Jewish minorities in Spain and Portugal, destruction of the Cathars sect and more broadly the Occitan culture by the Franks, destruction of the Jewish and Christian minorities in N. Africa by the Berbers, destruction of the Greek and Muslim minorities in Southern Italy, destruction of the Ismaelian sect in Egypt, etc. etc. etc.

It is sad but normal, on top of that the least ethnically varied countries have been doing statistically significantly better than the others economically-wise, it is thus normal to intend to 1. have a unified entity 2. desire as much land as possible 3. destroy the competing males in the opposed community. So the Chams had to suffer and move... too bad for them but really it is life.

Than the question is: was it criminal? Arguably yes, but it is too late to punish the guilty part so lets leave it as it is.

Humans are animals with the capability to evolve into something more. Until now, we remain animals.

And how on earth was this thread raised from the graveyard? vranakonti returned from vacations?

I will post once cause I have to sleep.

Were Chams harassed by the Greek government before the war? Yes

At that time, Greece was ruled by a fasist dictatorship Greek history has forgiven Metaxas for his famous "NO" to the Italians but the fact remains he was a dictator and a fasist one. He actively supressed minorities so obviously Chams would be discontent with the Greeks.

Did Chams collaborate with the Axis? Yes.

And many of them. There was a whole Cham armed group helping the Germans.

Was the Greek government responsible for their cleansing?

No. They were forced to exile during the civil war, a period when events like kidnapping Greek children and sending them to communist countries, punishing villages for helping one or another side and massive executions happened. Sad? Yes. But also a lot of Greek collaborators were killed brutally and Greek communists as well. My family lost a great-grandfather (hanged by right-wing militants as communist) and a great-grandmother (heart attack when communist guerillas entered the village and executed  a few people, local priest among them). Hey, shit happens.


Anyway, Chams for good or bad reasons were forced to exile and branded collaborators. Their properties were confiscated like the properties of Greek collaborators. Legally their grandchildren have no right to those properties. If they wish so badly to return....well we have about a million Albanian immigrants in Greece, come  and buy a house to live.

Goodnight

Ok your post is fair enough, lets forget about this topic at least for now, i just felt obligated to answer Zagros post.

 

 

 

Edited by vranakonti - 02-Sep-2008 at 01:57