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Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire

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  Quote Pierrewatteau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire
    Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 07:53
I thought Chiwoo meant that Ching is how it's pronounced in Manchu language.
 
But anyway, the best way to refer to this dynasty is Qing.
 
It's the same if some Chinese person would say smth. like "let us now discuss the history of Chaoxian."
 
I think Chiwoo didn't do research before posting.  "Qing" is pronounced as "Ch'ing" in mandarin, I think any one who knows a bit about linguistics would know that Qing is pinyin romanization while Ching is wade-gile and yale romanization.  Qing and Ching are different English romanization of the same sound and character.


Edited by Pierrewatteau - 03-Jun-2008 at 07:56
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 08:27
Yes, you're right. Ch'ing is just Wade-Giles romanization, but I just thought may be in Manchu language it also sounds the same.
 
But it's not, in Manchu it looks like this;
 
 
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 08:37
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
It's the same if some Chinese person would say smth. like "let us now discuss the history of Chaoxian." Smile
Good point!  Some Koreans would say 'What's Chaoxian?', although Joseon and Chaoxian sounds similar.  Most of Koreans can look at the word Beijing in Chinese and know what it means and even tell it means 'North(Northern)' and 'Capitol(City)' by each letters.  But they would say Buk Gyung(or Gyeong) which also means Northern Capitol City. I think understanding different pronunciations is important when you compare records from different cultures but it doesn't mean they have different meanings.  Once again just semantics.


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 03-Jun-2008 at 08:40
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:13
The thread is moved to a proper subforum.
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:36
Wow, Chiwoo created whole new subforum almost single handedly.  Perhaps the greatestWink impact made by a newcomer in quit some time?  Why do we, Koreans have to stick out like that wherever we go?  It can be a good thing or a bad thing, but I see to many times with hotheadedness.  I know many Koreans with cool calm collective Confucius scholastic temperments though.  Just not in this forum, I guess.  Where is Gubook Janggoon these days?    
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 23:04
I think Chiwoo didn't do research before posting.  "Qing" is pronounced as "Ch'ing" in mandarin, I think any one who knows a bit about linguistics would know that Qing is pinyin romanization while Ching is wade-gile and yale romanization.  Qing and Ching are different English romanization of the same sound and character.

Oh, no, Chiwoo was talking about the Manchu pronounciation, Ch'ing and Qing may sound exactly the same in English, but there is a difference between the two in chinese pronounciations. I don t personally speak Manchu Language or talk in Manchu accent, but i noticed when my great-grandfather(who speaks Manchu Language) talks about Qing dynasty, he sounded more like Ching, which all the mandarin speakers should know, the Ch- in Ching is retroflex consonant as oppose to Q- in Qing which is alvelo-palatal consonant


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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 03:37
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Where is Gubook Janggoon these days?
Should in 2nd or 3rd year in an Arts college, somewhere in Boston, IIRC.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 06:06
Gubook Janggoon? wasn't that the hardline korean nationalist moderator?

Edited by Siege Tower - 04-Jun-2008 at 06:07
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 06:23

He was a good mod.

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  Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 06:58
I don't know any cultural, anthropic, or genetic relation between Tungusic and Silla. They had the same ancestor dozens thousands years ago, far before the national identifications formed.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 07:12
There in fact were some interesting Korean-Tungusic relations in Bohai
 
But definetely it's not enough to build on this the theories AKA Chung-Korean dynasty etc.
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 08:05
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Gubook Janggoon? wasn't that the hardline Korean nationalist moderator?
I don't know if he was a hardline nationalist or not.  That's more subjective opinion and I guess I'm biased because he was Korean.  But I tell you what, I learned a lot from the battles Gubook Janggoon and The Charioteer used to have, especially on Koguryeo and NE project.  I think Gubook Janggoon did get tired and became little sensitive toward the end.  Perhaps one of the reasons he's not around anymore.  But I think he did a lot of work for the East Asia subforum and I don't remember him abusing his mod power too much.  I guess I just miss learning from great debates in the East Asia forum because I am not capable of creating or participating in one myself.  I always appreciate when you guys do though.  Thanks.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 00:52
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Originally posted by Siege Tower

Gubook Janggoon? wasn't that the hardline Korean nationalist moderator?
I don't know if he was a hardline nationalist or not.  That's more subjective opinion and I guess I'm biased because he was Korean.  But I tell you what, I learned a lot from the battles Gubook Janggoon and The Charioteer used to have, especially on Koguryeo and NE project.  I think Gubook Janggoon did get tired and became little sensitive toward the end.  Perhaps one of the reasons he's not around anymore.  But I think he did a lot of work for the East Asia subforum and I don't remember him abusing his mod power too much.  I guess I just miss learning from great debates in the East Asia forum because I am not capable of creating or participating in one myself.  I always appreciate when you guys do though.  Thanks.


Yea, those were the good time. it just seems everyone's gone all the sudden, all the Chinese members went to the Chinese history forum and the Korean members got their own forums too. Flyzone had this mental breakdown(according to one of the Mod, whose name shall remain confidential), and poirot is nowhere to be seen these days.
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 23:08
I am here
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 23:08
Just taking a lazzee-faireeeee hands off approach :)
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 17:51
Poirot,
 
Good to hear that you are still around!
 
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:03
Seige Tower,
 
Agree, those debates were very good.  However, some take disagreement very personally.  Some are very passionate (to a fault) about their positions.  I think that may be the reason why some are not with us.
 
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 06:30
Thank you jiangwei!

As to the origins of Qing, it is actually quite simple.

Ming = bright (element of fire)
Qing = clear (element of water)

Water extinguishes fire.  Hence why the Manchus renamed their empire from Jin to Qing.

The origin of Jin is also simple:

Liao = Iron
Jin = Gold

Gold >  Iron   Smile

P.S. The Joeson dynasty kept using the calendar of the last Ming emperor well after the demise of the last Ming resistance in Yunan.  It is doubtful that the Joeson had "love" for the Manchus.

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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:39
Originally posted by poirot

Thank you jiangwei!

As to the origins of Qing, it is actually quite simple.

Ming = bright (element of fire)
Qing = clear (element of water)

Water extinguishes fire.  Hence why the Manchus renamed their empire from Jin to Qing.

The origin of Jin is also simple:

Liao = Iron
Jin = Gold

Gold >  Iron   Smile

P.S. The Joeson dynasty kept using the calendar of the last Ming emperor well after the demise of the last Ming resistance in Yunan.  It is doubtful that the Joeson had "love" for the Manchus.

 
The Joseon dynasty also set itself to be a Confucius court in opposition to the Goryeo court which was overran by some corrupt Buddhist monks at times.  I think the Joseon court looked up the Ming court as precedential Confucius court, more like the Eastern Philosopher King way. 
 
In fact the Joseon's founder Taejo Yi Seong Gye was the general who was given 70.000 troop by Goryeo court to fight the Ming in the NW(of Korea) border but he turn the troop around and came back to Kaesung to topple the Goryeo dynasty and found the new dynasty.  I mean the guy wanted to be a king foremost, obviously.  But also this was the general who would rather topple his own king than fight Ming. 
 
Also in Imjin War, Ming helped Joseon.  That's well known. 
 
During Ming vs Qing though, Joseon has pledged to fight in Mings side but they already knew Ming would lose so the king ordered the general to surrender to Qing if the defeat was inevitable to serve the diplomatic duty and secure the future relationship with the new power same time as far as I know. 
 
Anyway my general understanding is that Joseon was loyal to Ming because they looked up to them but they were loyal to Qing because they had no other choice.  Is the Chinese historical perspective similar to this? 
 
PS.  Poirot, it's cool that how you compared Ming and Qing with the elements each letter represent.  I guess I could have figured that out myself since I know what they mean but never connected it that way. 
 
Hope to see you around more, please! 


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 12-Jun-2008 at 07:55
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 15:21

Yes, I think Chinese historical perspective is totally similar in this regard.

BTW, did Manchu participate in Imjin war? I actually encountered 2 opposite sources one which said they did and another that they didn't.

 

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