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Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire
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King Kang of Mu View Drop Down
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire
    Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 05:50
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 

BTW, did Manchu participate in Imjin war? I actually encountered 2 opposite sources one which said they did and another that they didn't.

 

I've never heard that before but that doesn't say much.  So I did any lazy person with little knowledge would do, I looked up Wiki.  Wiki listed Jianzhou Jurchens as belligerents fighting on Joseon and Ming side against Hideyoshi.  But I couldn't find when, where or how many soldiers.
 
So I looked up Jianzhou Jurchens since I'm not familiar with different tribal factions of the Jurchens.  And I found out Jianzhou Jurchens were where Nurhaci was from?  Wiki says young Nurhaci was a hostage to Ming.  And Nurhaci's grandfather Giocangga, chief of the Beiles of the Sixes, was supposed to help Ming against another Jurchen chieftain Atai but he choose to help Atai against Nikan Wailan.  Under Giocangga article, Wiki says Atai was actually Nurhaci 's uncle.  But this article on Jianzhou Jurchens says Atai was Wang Gao's son.  Does that make Giocangga and Wang Gao brothers or cousins?  I'm getting confused now.  Anyway Atai lost and Ming abandoned Giocangga and Taksi(father of Nurhaci) and they got killed by Nikan Wailan.
 
 
 
------(from Wiki)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was at this junction that Nurhaci, son of Taksi, appeared on the scene. Taking control of his grandfather's Suksuhu River tribe, he drove Nikan Wailan from the lands of the Jianzhou Jurchens. In 1588 he subjected the Wanggiya tribe and received the submission of the Donggo tribe. The unification of the Jianzhou Jurchens provided the basis for Nurhaci to expand his power throughout southern and central Manchuria, and to create a true Manchu state. The very name Manchu (Jurchen: manju) was perhaps an old term for the Jianzhou Jurchens.

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So by 1588, Nurhaci was in power, unifying and expanding Jianzhou Jurchens.   I don't know exactly when Nurhaci was done unifying all the Jurchens and started to fight against Ming, but he reigned as Khan 1616 and found Later Jin.  Wiki dates last year of Ming as 1644. 
 
I guess what interests me here is the timeline.   If the Manchus(Jianzhou Jurchens) fought with Ming and Joseon in Imjin War, it had to be under the leadership of the Nurhaci himself since the war was between 1592-1598.  Would it be possible that Nurhaci was making deals with Ming to help out in the Imjin war and Ming was letting him fight against other Jurchen tribes?  Wouldn't that be the only way Ming and the Manchus could have fought together in same side during the Imjin War.  But they might not have fought side to side.  They could have fought in different battles. 
 
I'm not sure how far the Japanese troops went up northward but I know one of the main division reached least up to Hamheung city, which is still quite south of the border still but there could have been battles near the border.  Maybe Manchus could have been defending the peripheries of their expanding territory, not necessarily fighting with or for Ming and Joseon.  I somehow think that is the most probable scenario. I mean all this is just from one evening worth of Wiki research.  I'm not claiming anything.  I just trying to learn. 
 
Anyway, I also read something about Imjin War being one of the events that caused the Fall of Ming and the Rise of Qing.  What is the contemporary Chinese view on that?  Did Imjin War affected Ming that much?  Here is what Wiki says;
 
-------(from Wiki)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to the human losses, Korea suffered tremendous cultural, economic, and infrastructural damage, including a large reduction in the amount of arable land,[8] destruction and confiscation of significant artworks, artifacts, and historical documents, and abductions of artisans and technicians.[11] The heavy financial burden placed on China by the war adversely affected its military capabilities and contributed to the fall of the Ming Dynasty and the rise of the Qing Dynasty.[12] However, the sinocentric tributary system that Ming had defended was restored by Qing, and the normal trade relations between Korea and Japan later continued.[13]  
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It would be very ironic if indeed Nurhaci fought with/for Ming and Joseon in Imjin War.
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poirot View Drop Down
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Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 06:14
You are correct my friend, the Joeson dynasty had relatively favorable relations with the Ming.  Joeson later defected to the Qing because it had no choice, not because of voluntary action as a result of cultural or linguistic ties (like how the Khitan defected to the Mongols).

1. Ming and Joeson were close culturally, therefore I fail to understand why some Korean nationalists would associate Joeson with the Manchu.  Perhaps similar to how some Chinese nationalists would associate the PRC with Chinnghis Khan.

The Joeson probably looked down upon the Manchu as "barbarians".  During Ming times, Joeson, and perhaps Annam, were considered the "civilized" vassals.

2. The Ming helped Joeson during the Imjin Wars.  The Ming commander, Li Rusong, son of Li Chengliang, had Korean blood.  Despite some looting certain Ming troops in Korea, the official stance was of a unified front of Ming and Joeson.

3. Joeson profited from its vassalage to the Ming.  A condescending Ming emperor always provided more gifts to his vassals than the tributes he received.

If I remember correctly, the Joeson king even secretly organized an expansion of palace troops in an attempt to resist the Manchus.
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King Kang of Mu View Drop Down
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 05:22
EDIT,  I accidently double posted this during editing but I can't delete it so I'm just clearing this one.  Just look at the one below.  I know I'm an idiot.  
 


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 14-Jun-2008 at 06:32
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 05:36
Originally posted by poirot



2. The Ming helped Joeson during the Imjin Wars.  The Ming commander, Li Rusong, son of Li Chengliang, had Korean blood.  Despite some looting certain Ming troops in Korea, the official stance was of a unified front of Ming and Joeson.


 Wow, I didn't know Li Rusong had Korean blood and also he was a son of Li Chengliang. 
 
 Now that's gotta be the same Li Chengliang who abandoned Nurhaci's father Taksi and grandfather Giocangga because he thought they mutinied against his command to support Nikan Wailan and instead helped Atai who was their relative, right?  And when they lost Nikan Wailan killed both of them.
 
Also when they say Nurhaci was the Ming's hostage when he was young, is that mean he was kept under Li Chengliang himself or kept in Beijing?
 
Also did Nurhaci ever try to take revenge on Li Chengliang or Li Rusong for his father, grandfather and uncle's death?  That would make sense.
 
What a feud between two families for three generations, hah!
 
Wiki says Li Chengliang had nine sons and five became full generals and the other four became accompanying generals for Ming.  One of them was Li Rusong's younger brother Li Rubai who also fought in Imjin War and then fought Nurhaci but lost in Sarhu and killed himself.
 
So with that information, it would be very hard to imagine that Nurhaci and Li brothers fought in the same side during the Imjin war.
 
Also wiki says Li Chengliang was a Korean descent but Li Rusong was a Korean and Jurchen descent.  Maybe Li chengliang married a Jurchen woman? 


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 14-Jun-2008 at 05:53
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