Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Astrology - Cant Be Fake, Can It?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jul-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 646
  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Astrology - Cant Be Fake, Can It?
    Posted: 31-May-2008 at 03:09
I am thinking.

Chinese civilization, Persian civilization, Indian civilization, and to an extent even Greco-Roman civilization have something on astrology.

Astrology: the study that assumes and attempts to interpret the influence of the heavenly bodies on human affairs.

In modern times even Ronald Reagan of America had an astrologer. I also believe recent French President had consulted astrologers.

So the question is, is there a truth to this science? After all, why would these ancient civilizations dabble in this science, and have such sophisticated and elaborate methods to this science if it was all baloney? Sophistication arises from constantly poking at this to delve depper into its secrets, so to speak.

Anyone have any experiences with an astrologer? A bona fide astrologer? Anyone ever read about the science behind astrology? What about someone who knows of it? Discuss.
Mughal e Azam
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 05:01

Well, it depends on which part of the Astrology you are going to judge.

(1) The idea that heavens influenced people destiny is absurd... mostly. However, some celestial events influence the earth, and perhaps the more clear example is the influence of Moon on the sea tides. That's a real phenomen so it is science. It is also known that tides fires certain events like the ovulation in certain species of fish, so that's also an "astrological" even but scientific.
However, to believe that the possition of planet at birth determines personal destiny is false, simply because at the same time hundred of children are born, and any of them share the same destiny in life.
 
(2) The prediction of the heavenly bodies in the skies is a cientific part of ancient astrology, based in very old mathematics. That's something we must take into account. Most of the early techniques of modern astronomy and navigation comes from studies made by astrologers... to predict the future.
 
(3) The prediction of time of conception was so important for Middle Ages chinese, and theirs astrology, that theirs engineers developed large hydraulic clockworks and invented the escapement, a basic device that allowed clockmaking to progress.
 
(4) Astrology has been studied from the psycological point of view by Jung, among others. The interesting thing here is that the astrological signs are very good examples of his archaetypes. So if anyone want to laugh about astrologers be aware that theirs strenght are in psycology, among any other consideration.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 31-May-2008 at 05:07
Back to Top
Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jul-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 646
  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 07:05
I need to figure out how destiny is "determined" via planetary conditions or alignment. I do feel they are not bullshitting so many "future predictions" because that is too much bullshit for one person to dish out.

There must be scientific books based by professional astrologers.

Astrology: How It Works, & Why
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0943358388?tag=worldcat-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0943358388&adid=154Y7KJ0BNS3B6FKMTX6&

Sorry, but astrology does "work", and if you read this book you would understand that. It "works" because of the grand interconnectedness of all life and the fact that we are all oscillating holographic interference patterns of gravitationally trapped Light. It works because of "As above, so below". It works because our bodies are more than 70% percent water and no one would argue that the tides of the ocean are affected by the cycles of the moon. It works because Michel Gaugelin, a French statistician, who set out to disprove astrology once and for all ended up finding strong statistical correlations between the signs and occupations and studied astrology for the rest of his life; he also wrote a book, "Cosmic Influences on Human Behavior". It does NOT mean you believe in Fate or predestination, only that in your first earthly breath, you took in certain strengths and weaknesses and foreknowledge of such aids in developing your God-given strengths and off-setting your weaknesses. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none will suffice. So be it.


Sounds interesting.
Mughal e Azam
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 22:44
You might compare the 'predetermination' that couldn't be changed and the 'fate' which could be changed by persons and gods as the Sumers saw it. Also bound in astrology, astronomy and maths.
Back to Top
Soren Svendsen View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote Soren Svendsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 01:27
Originally posted by Mughal e Azam


In modern times even Ronald Reagan of America had an astrologer. I also believe recent French President had consulted astrologers.
 
I am thinking...
 
 this is scary. So you say that major things happening in the world have been determined by a man looking at a starmap...
 
Astrology have been around for a very long time and will probably be there for a long time. All it takes is that some astrologers ones in a while gets something right (do I need to say the math of huge numbers). Astrology has has it's opponnents at all time. Does this mean that the opponnents is right? Yes but not because of that argument :)
 
This subject seems to belong to the "intellectual discusssion" department rather than "general history"
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 01:42
Well, modern astrologers just changed the name of theirs activity. Today they call themselves economists and they work as advisors in Wall Street.
Back to Top
Lipovan87 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 28-Oct-2008
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Lipovan87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 01:47
I thought it was Reagan's wife who was interested in it and just tried to drag him into it.

People naturally try to understand and control the world. It was supposed back thousands of years ago that the stars had such influence given their lack of information about other things.

The failure of such a concept to have predictive power is the reason why it was said that "there are no stars for Jews" concerning the failure of Pagan astrology to predict the impact on non-believers in astrology.

The whole thing is periodically revived by groups of people who believe that because a belief is old and once widespread, that it must have some truth in it. The early Masonic movement in Europe embraced it as did various romantics in the 1800's. More recently a neo-pagan wave has embraced it trying to give it the gloss of respectability.

People half listen to it due to the natural curiosity in any personal profile even if they conciously know that it has no basis in fact or logic.
Human error is a certainty, the location of it is not.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 04:59
Originally posted by Mughal e Azam

I am thinking.

Chinese civilization, Persian civilization, Indian civilization, and to an extent even Greco-Roman civilization have something on astrology.

Astrology: the study that assumes and attempts to interpret the influence of the heavenly bodies on human affairs.

In modern times even Ronald Reagan of America had an astrologer. I also believe recent French President had consulted astrologers.

So the question is, is there a truth to this science? After all, why would these ancient civilizations dabble in this science, and have such sophisticated and elaborate methods to this science if it was all baloney?


It's really pretty simple. Ancient societies depended on the natural cycles very strongly - day and night, winter and summer, and especially, harvest season and planting season.

At some point, some people figured out that there was a correlation between the movements of celestial bodies and the seasons, and with an advanced understanding of the stars, they could predict exactly when to plant, or when the harvest would be ready. This probably seemed like a magical power at the time, and of course, it was mostly the priests who jealously guarded this technique. So it became interwoven with religion and magic.

It also probably seemed natural to them that the stars were actually the cause of all things. For instance, an ancient Egyptian priest would know that when a certain constellation was in a certain spot, the Nile would flood. They didn't understand the difference between correlation and causation so it seemed like the constellation was actually the cause of the Nile flooding. This was the most important thing in their world, their whole fate depended on it, so it was probably a small step to go from there to thinking that the stars determined other things, that they influenced other destinies as well.

As far as Reagan etc, keep in mind that although people are enthralled by authority figures and assume they are wise and all-knowing, they are actually just very skilled confidence men and almost never have a background in the sciences - almost always, they come from professions that involve convincing people of things by winning their confidence, like lawyers, businessmen, journalists, actors, etc. They are no more versed in science than most people. We have confidence in their abilities because that's what they do best, get our confidence.


Edited by edgewaters - 04-Nov-2008 at 05:15
Back to Top
Soren Svendsen View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote Soren Svendsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by edgewaters



It's really pretty simple. Ancient societies depended on the natural cycles very strongly - day and night, winter and summer, and especially, harvest season and planting season.

At some point, some people figured out that there was a correlation between the movements of celestial bodies and the seasons, and with an advanced understanding of the stars, they could predict exactly when to plant, or when the harvest would be ready. This probably seemed like a magical power at the time, and of course, it was mostly the priests who jealously guarded this technique. So it became interwoven with religion and magic.

It also probably seemed natural to them that the stars were actually the cause of all things. For instance, an ancient Egyptian priest would know that when a certain constellation was in a certain spot, the Nile would flood. They didn't understand the difference between correlation and causation so it seemed like the constellation was actually the cause of the Nile flooding. This was the most important thing in their world, their whole fate depended on it, so it was probably a small step to go from there to thinking that the stars determined other things, that they influenced other destinies as well.

As far as Reagan etc, keep in mind that although people are enthralled by authority figures and assume they are wise and all-knowing, they are actually just very skilled confidence men and almost never have a background in the sciences - almost always, they come from professions that involve convincing people of things by winning their confidence, like lawyers, businessmen, journalists, actors, etc. They are no more versed in science than most people. We have confidence in their abilities because that's what they do best, get our confidence.
 
A very good analysis.
Concerning the stars some astrologers thought they did not had any influence on the situation on the earth, but that the motions showed insight into the predetermined events.
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4262
  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 01:54

Any truth to Astrology?

According to astrology the twelve signs of the Zodiac are held to represent twelve basic personality types or characteristic modes of expression with a special significance of the ascendant or rising sign, namely the zodiac sign that is rising (due to the rotation of the earth) on the eastern horizon at the moment of a person's birth.

The signs and their significance was named and described approx. 200 BC and everyone with some knowledge of astronomy knows that the location of the stars and subsequently the constellations has changed and was very different from today.

So IF there was something important to derive from the nightsky 2200 years ago, it most certainly has lost the validity today.

Also, not too long ago I saw an experiment with 20 uni-students who each had a detailed personal horoscope done. The results were handed out to them in an envelope with their name on it.
They all were surprised how accurately the astrologer had described their character and other features, including future perspectives.
But they were even more surprised when they were asked to pass their result to the next student and saw that all the results were exactly the same. Simply 20 copies of one single horoscope.

I don't believe in reading cards either. Wink

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 11:22
The constellations have indeed moved (more accurately, at a given time in the year the sun is now in a different position with regard to the constellations) but this is irrelevant in astrological theory in which the constellations (i.e. the confuiguration of stars) as such have no meaning. What counts is the position of the planets (including sun, moon, 1st point of Aries) in the sky. What the background configuration is at that point has nothing to do with anything.
 
The constellation 'Cancer' was not so named because it looked like a crab, but people who were born when several planets or the ascendant were where that constellation was two thousand years ago showed crab-like characteristics. That the constellation has since 'moved' doesn't alter the effect planets are supposed to have when they're in that position.
 
 Incidentally, the current popular astrological system in which people are classified by their 'signs' was invented by a Daily Express journalist in the 1920s. It is of no historical interest whatsoever.
 
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2010 at 21:39
You guys just do not know just how smart "gcle2003" might be? I have read hundreds of his/her posts and remain in awe!

I would certainly like to have a few adult beverages with this persona?

Of course, I cannot afford to go to Luxembourg, which, historically, is one of the most strange results of history that one can imagine!

Except for maybe dozens or hundreds of "ancient" star charts,may sill exist, it seems it is up to the imagination of the viewer to perceive any man desired object! It seems the very same constellations, could have been drawn in very different poses, depending upon both the author and the reader!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Nurica View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 26-May-2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2010 at 20:01
Astrology isn/t a science. At least not in my dictionaries and encycl...
As for psychology, there is a scientific psychology, but not all what is labeled as "psychology" is scientific. Jung is therefore in no way something to scare someone unwilling to accept astrology or "poetic psychology" as science:
 
During long periods of "self-experimentation" he met heroes and goddesses, wise men and serpents, battled his demons and re-discovered his faith in God. "My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious," Jung said of this experience later in life.  He documented his imaginary journey, illustrating the most powerful revelations by hand, in a leather bound tome he named the Liber Novus, or new book, but which came to be known as the Red Book.  But, wary that the mystical tale of self-exploration would damage his reputation as a serious psychologist, Jung kept the book under lock and key until his death in 1961. [...] 
But, even without the Red Book, there are few people who would consider Jung a scientist in the normal sense.  
"Nobody really thinks that Jungian psychology is based on what people today would think of as science," argues Professor Segal. "You can't study it in a lab, you can't subject it to anything systematic." Moreover, it was precisely the subjective, anti-scientific, mystical aspect of Jung that attracted many of those who embraced his theories during his lifetime, says Segal. So if he was trying to keep it under wraps, "it was a lost venture".
 
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2010 at 19:40
Do you know Nurica that I actually had a secretary that read Jung? Yeah! She was nutty as a fruit cake!

One would have to put a gun to my head to make me read Jung, or most any of his genre'! Like Freud, etc.!

But, to each his own!

Welcome however!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 27-May-2010 at 19:41
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Bill Cobbett View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 23-Oct-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
  Quote Bill Cobbett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2011 at 17:01

Astrology - Cant Be Fake, Can It?

Astrology - Cant Be Fake, Can It?

Topic: Astrology - Cant Be Fake, Can It?

Yes! All of it. All made up. Every last bit of it. One almighty pile of poo.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.092 seconds.