Who was Chiu?

Hey Hansioux,

    I have some doubts about Shi Ji, especially when it discusses about things that who knows when they actually happened.  Sima Qian wrote it in circa 200 BC, so how sure could he be about things that supposed to happened more than a thousand years before him?  And symbolic character: I mean what he stood for.  For similar reasons existence such people as Huangdi and Moses is also doubtful.  Excessively skeptical as this might seem, the very hero I honor, Kong Tzu, might also be legendary.  The problem is that just because some records are supposed to be official and discussed widely public figures do not mean that they were accurate.  It's hard to be wrong about things that happened in public nowadays, but it's not difficult to be wrong about things that happened centuries ago, and at a time when communication was more difficult.

    Many people try to come up with a compromise and say that historical figures had been distorted by myths.  This is a viable possibility, but it's merely that, a possibility.  The fact remains that it wasn't logically necessary that these figures actually existed.  Furthermore, this theory also poses a faulty historical formula: that the myths are only myths if they are exaggerated.  The most important thing about myths, in fact, is not their exaggerations, but their symbolism.  Ancient Chinese accounts such as Shang Shu are very plain and not exaggerated; its accounts of wars is very dull and rarely mentions heroes of great valor, like other myths would.  But this cannot prove that they were therefore accurate, because myths are popular when they sell to popular appeal; if, at the time, the popular appeal is not supernatural strenght but human wisdom, then the Zhou Gong who reformed the rituals would have greater appeal than the Zhou Gong who went against the Shang Dynasty leading a group of superheroes who became gods and immortals.

    Recommended reading: Emile Durkheim's Elementary Forms of Religion.  It gives a good theory that explains the fact that even figures who are viewed as fundamentally important to a culture did not have to be actual figures in order to be celebrated.

Peace,

Michael

9-2-2004

Edited by MengTzu

Originally posted by demon Okay, the point of Chiu: The word for leader The origin of the character Iron His victories that set example

It is the symbolic character of Chiu that makes his existence doubtful.  In other words, it's the fact that he's a "trope," an icon that stands for something, that makes him prominent, not whether or not he featured in historically verifiable sources.

demon, that word is also the word for leader in the Miao tribes of China.

I wouldn't find the online version of the map from the research paper I once read,

so I made one.

Yellow is the �� Di group of ���� (Huang Di) and �P Zhou dynasty. 

Red is the �� Qiang group of ���A Sheng Nung and ���� Yan Di. 

Blue is the �i Yi group of �ө� Tai Hao and �� Shang dynasty. 

Dark red is the peopel of �T�] Miao group of �E�� Chi-Yu and �L Xia dynasty.

As you can see the overlapping of land.  Yi and Maio (or the �E�� on your map) were the first ones in China.  The Qiang came next, and Di came last.

Edited by hansioux

I have talked about Chi-Yu in another thread.  Which I have posted for MengTzu.

And thanks for being so hostile even outside of the Taiwan thread.  You truely are a reasonable person.

Originally posted by MengTzu Hey all,     It's quite amazing that few people here discuss the real significance of the Chiu / Chi You legend -- that is, the fact that it's a legend.  As Yan Wang mentioned, his name really says it all -- it seems as though he was a symbolic character, a "chaotic bug, son of a dog" that his name implied.  Unless in that particular culture, these are qualities that are admired, otherwise it's difficult to imagine being named that, and besides, his name is first mentioned in the Confucian classics, as Yan Wang mentioned, and such concepts as "chaos" and "rebellion" are the polar opposites of Confucian values, thus Chiu could simply be a symbolic character drawn up by Confucians to teach a moral lesson.  It's not impossible that there was such an actual historical figure, and that the Confucians gave him this name to denote his chaotic and rebellious character.  The facticity of such a figure is, of course, very doubtful.  The accounts about him by now are very conflicting (early Chinese sources, where he's first mentioned, depict him in the negative light,) and no archeological evidence informs us enough to say that he existed. Peace, Michael 9-2-2004

Yes, in fact these characterists were admired and worshipped.  You must realize the Chinese character normally has a broad meaning, especially in the ancient times when the language is just being.  A character of fish can mean turtle.  A character of dog can mean wolf or other dog like creaters.

As I mentioned in the ancient Chinese myth page, there were 4 major worships of 4 major races of people in the ancient China.  One of them, worships creatures with 4 legs. Such as deer and bull, that includes wolfs and dogs.

In fact, it there is a race called ���� (Quan Rong, which means Rong of the Dogs) which have a wolf on their banner.

MengTzu, should go an read what I wrote about the Chi-You on the other thread.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=97&P N=1

 

For Yan Wang, 

I never like that map that you posted.  It is a way too simplified representation of that time.  The map maker might as well just put a single big circule on there that says "Chinese".  I'll find the map that I like and post it, if I can find it online.

Thanks for posting ads from Taiwanese online games, and thanks for the support of Taiwanese gaming industry. 

Finally.... you do know that all your explanation is from after the Han dynasty right?  You should go to that thread too.

Also, here's a site on the Chi-Yu subject written by your people.

http://www.3miao.com/ancestors/ciyou/

Notice that Miao people worships Chi-Yu as an anscester and they people had a tradition of worshipping dogs.

 

 

Well...............................

Its the third time i saw that great ancient tribe leader Chi-You be described as "The 14th korean Tenno", the title crowned to him after japanese influence on korea in 1900s.  

Chi You was first appeared in Confucian Classics and Han time books. Like its chinese name describes:  literally, character Chi draws a kind of insects, means "disorder""contrary""rebel"; character "You" draws a doglike man, means son of  dog  in Classic Chinese.  this could explain he was a enormous threat to other people of middle plain.

(Source:��������ڬ������򿣬��Ҳ���������ԡ�����򿣬�Ҳ��� ,��Ҳ.��˵�ġ���,��Ҳ��������˵�ġ����쿥��Ի:���ֵ�֮�q֮ ����,Ȯ��Ҳ����,��Ҳ��������С���š���,��Ҳ�����������š�)

Chi You's portrait(chinese folk papercut)

ChiYou(on block,North and South dynasties, )

Chi You was the preeminent leader of Miao/nine Li tribe unions(today's Miao ethnic group and Li ethnic group). he led his people engaged many bettles with tribe union of yellow emperor and flame emperor and won those. nevertheless finally his tribe, army was defeated in the war of ZhuoLu in today's Hebei province, China, by the union army led by Yellow emperor at time around 3000BC.  Also his people was annexed into the union. this was the first great unification in chinese history. therefore late chinese emperor respect him as a god of war. Espeically in Daolism classics, in which those legendary heroes were described as god, immortals, Chi You also became a chinese god worshiped in local temples across the middle kingdom.

Yellow Emperor hunting ChiYou( Han time tomb tile)

Blue spot: the Flame Emperor's tribe
Green spot: the Yellow Emperor's tribe
Brown spot: the ChiYou's nine Li tribe.

Yellow Emperor

Flame Emperor

Chi You in Chinese Daolism portrait

ChiYou in Chinese Pc game(made in taiwan)

We dont know how it became the 14th heavenly emperor(tenno) of korean, nevertheless  he was also the closest figure korean can cought in the closest place to the yellow river civilization.

Edited by YanWang

What is Handdangogi?  Can I read it online?  When was it written?  Who was it written by?

Handangogi...its a collection of different books in one.  I don't think there is an online version---but i'll check.  It was written in 1911 by a man named Geiyonsoo, and he just copied from the following books: samsungi, dangoonsegi, bookpuyogi, tebekilsa, chunboogyong and samilshingo.

samsungi was written by shilla priest who wrote about the ancient kingdom of Hwangook to

dangoonsegi was written by a teacher named Moonjonggong, and he included important events of Dangoon

bookpuyogi was written by a philospher named bumjang, and it writes about the start of Koguri.

tebekilsa was written in choson by imek, and it talks about end of old choson to kori(koryo).

chonbugyong derived from an ancient stela

and samilshingo talks about korean identity.

 

Chi You is believed by Miao people to be their ancestor. The legend of Chi You been defeated by Huang Di may be a reflection of Hua Xia expansion into former Miao territories.

btw.How did the title 天皇 exist at the time of Chi You? Are you taking infor from that picture book which contained a map of great Bai Ji empire?


Edited by Xuan Yuan

Is this interest in Chiu a part of the "Minjoksagwon" that seemed to have become popular in Korea?

Well, Korean ideals are very different from China.  It arose from continous inextinguishable lies and traitors.

You know that during Japanese occupation, there were traitors, right?  Well these traitors now form the high class in Korea, because they sided to US capitalists and these capitalists needed support.  In North Korea and China however, these traitors are all dead or f$%^ed up(1 more reason to believe communism), and most of patriots were also communists(in fact, Korea has always been a homogeneous and communist society), so they are in the right track to discover their own culture and values. 

Again, South Korea is the only nation who is still living under Japanese occupation due to the fact that traitors still live in high class.

And, during Japanese colonization, these Japs burned history books and replaced them with made up ones.  They also destroyed many customs, and replanted trees and buildings and also ruined landscape.  They bombed mountains for fear of ghosts, only to kill tigers.  They are good in doing stuffs like that.  They also forced koreans to bow everyday to Tenno, and read Japanese.  That's why there are korean words like "okebare" which derived during Japanese occupation.

The previous Samguksagi is also modified by these Japanese people.  They used samguksagi to teach Koreans during occupation.  But the tradition of this lie has been acceded by traitors who now form the high class.  So people are turning to new history books, instead of the "official" book of lie.  I'm just one of them.

Most of these people have turned to Handangogi, another history context.  It has been condemned by the high class, the traitors.  It just made another reason to believe in this book.  It speaks about an ancient himalayan civilization called Hwan-Gook(Hwan=han=bright/white/wide/big..., Gook=country), as well as Sumir(Sumerian).  It explains the mysterious pyramids in Shanxi province, because these pyramids were before Quishihuang's era.  It is followed by Baedal, and Chiu the god of War.  Then it goes into Puyo, Koguryi, and to Kori. 

Anyway, even Samguksagi speaks of Hwan gook, which adds another reason to believe it.  And samguksagi never went further speaking what happened in Hwan gook.

In addition, Seoul university once made a documentary to prove handangogi.  They did it by using a NASA tool to predict planet lining.  Handangogi had spoken of an era in which every planet made a lining.  Nasa tool had calculated these and found that the book had one year of error, which is very accurate in the science of astrology.

It's a collection of values and proves that leads me into believing all these stuffs, not minjoksagwon.

demon, i have no idea who is chiu, perhaps more information or websites to investigate?

So far, I couldn't find any sources about him in the internet.  I got the info from books-like Handangogi.

My question is when did Chiu become a celebrated figure by Koreans?  I thot that Koreans traditionally believed Taegun to be their ancestor

Funny thing about Taegun: He is condemned by Japs at first, followed by traitors, then by Christians.

There is a funny rhyme that comes with Nostradamus's prediction.  He said that in 1999, November, that a disaster would erupt by Mongolia-something like that.  In that same time, Korean Christians made a trip around Korea to chop of heads of Taegun.    Maybe Nostradamus was right...

And Chiu got widely celebrated in World Cup 2002, for revival purpose intended by soccer fans.  The whole thing about red colored fans and loud drumming came from Chiu- and his preferred color.  Also, WC started in May, which is thought as his B-Day.