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9th of May celebrations at Moscow!!!
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Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 9th of May celebrations at Moscow!!!
    Posted: 19-May-2005 at 16:53
Originally posted by Spartakus

That's you should celebrate.What do you prefer?The whole Europe under Nazism,or half free and half communistic?

That is something ridiculously easy to say living in the free half...
"Don't be sad that you lost half your family - celebrate, because my family live and is healthy."

Edited by Styrbiorn
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:04
Let's be realistic,you cannot have the pie untouched and the dog full.You cannot have it all.And let me tell you sth.It is not easy.Because after the end of German occupation,Hellas had a civil war up to 1949 between rightists and commies.During the 60's the one Hellenic goverment was falling after the other.Some goverments could not last a day and from 1967 to 1974 we had the dictatorship and the 1974 the Turkish invasion in Cyprus.So my dear friend,it was not easy....After all,if you do not want to reply to a simple question,it's your decision.  
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:10
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

"And that only in Estonia.So what do you prefer?A whole Europe under Nazism or half free and half communistic?"

Communism killed many times more than the number i presented in Estonia. 10,000 civilians were deported to Siberia, another 10,000 was already to be deported two weeks after that (Beria had issued the proper papers), but the German army invaded just in time, if you look at it from the Estonian point of view. Gods know how many were killed behind the bush as the Reds killings are not as popular of material for modern scholars. So, to us communsim was in times worse then nazism during the years of war. The Germans invaded and killed the killers of us, naturally favor was towards the German army in the beginning of the German occupation - logical social behaviour.

What do you mean which do i prefer, of course neither, i can only look at things from the point of that time, and communsim was just as bad or worse for Estonians then nazi shovinism.

Do you prefer the whole Europe Under Nazism for 50 years of half Europe free and half communistic for 50 years?You must choose.If you do not want to,then do not reply.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Styrbiorn View Drop Down
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:45
Originally posted by Spartakus

After all,if you do not want toreply to a simple question,it's your decision.

Ok, but stupid questions get stupid answers: it depends. If I lived in the free half the answer would be easy, if I lived in the other, it would be a completly different matter. Human beings aren't logical machines, they're thinking machines driven by emotions, hormons, etc. Try having some empathy and put yourself in their situation. I don't think that question is so simple you claim it to be, my friend.

edit: let's make a parallell.
Imagine the Soviets weren't involved in the war. Imagine the Nazis conquered Europe from Norway and France to Poland and Romania. Imagine the Allies landed and drove the Germans back to the Rhein and Elbe, saving France, the Netherlands and Scandinavia. A stalemate occured in 1945 and peace was signed. Half of Europe remained under the Nazis until 1990, when the Nazi empire crumpled and the nations got their independence. Would you require the Poles, Hungarians and Romanians to celebrate with you on 2005 that half of Europe was liberated 60 years ago? These situations are very similar, in fact I'd claim they are equivalent from the point of view of the occupied areas.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:50
Oh,my friend it's very easy to reply,cause only from 1940 to 1945 Nazism victims were more than 30.000.000 people. If it is a stupid question to you,then do not reply.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:53
I did answer...
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 07:55

Sry,but you did not.I cannot accept sth with the word "stupid" as an answer.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 08:07
What you "accept" or not doesn't change the fact that my answer was 'it depends'. If you don't make a well-defined question don't expect an exact answer
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Posts: 1458 		  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 08:29
"Do you prefer the whole Europe Under Nazism for 50 years of half Europe free and half communistic for 50 years?You must choose.If you do not want to,then do not reply."

I think half under communism would be better, if you presume that the nazis would have killed everyone in Europe as they pleased. Now what, how does that matter to my decision of not caring to celebrate the anniversary of my nations occupation and reppresion?
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 08:32
Seeing K's answer, I see I kind of misunderstood the question. Of course, yes, half-free, half-communist Europe is better than all-Nazi. Whether to celebrate it or not though, my answer still depends.
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Posts: 517 		  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 10:09

After loosing 20 millions of their citizens and America's invention of Atomic bomb (start of cold war) may prevent Soviets to have more moderate governments. Stalin, his character and Soviet political culture have been shaped after chatastrophe of II WW.

On the other hand USA had never faced such things but they have showed their "freedom" understanding by CIA operations in other countries after the II WW. From this point of view Spartakus is right whose country lived under US supported military junda during years like Turkey. (I also advise him to read about Soviets-Makarios relations and US reaction to this and military coup in Cyprus in 1974 by Greek fascist soldiers). Europe has been shaped, supported and created by USA as an outcome of capitalism. The struggle has turned out a Capitalist-Communist cold and sometimes hot war. It is sure that USA's administration was more moderate compared to Russians in Europe.

But this may be an outcome of conditions.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 13:28
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

"Do you prefer the whole Europe Under Nazism for 50 years of half Europe free and half communistic for 50 years?You must choose.If you do not want to,then do not reply."

I think half under communism would be better, if you presume that the nazis would have killed everyone in Europe as they pleased. Now what, how does that matter to my decision of not caring to celebrate the anniversary of my nations occupation and reppresion?
You answered the question  yourself.You chose what historically happened.So celebrate because a worst situation,Europe under Nazism,was stopped that day. 
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 1458 		  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 15:05

Passively i certainly am glad for the fall of Hitler, but then i see the Soviet veterans screaming Stalins name and Waving Red flags in my homeland on May 9th and on several days of celebration, the past Red trash treat as something to be happy about, and then i see little else then the murderers rejoicing for bringing everything but culture here.
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 23:28

Some of this discussion is less than, shall we say, intelligent. If Soviets werent fighting WWII, political opportunists like Roosevelt and Churchill would have to assume the bigger role in the war. There would be more American and British casualties, but Allies were more than capable of defeating Germany without the Red Army. There is no way Germany could sustain guerilla warfare in the occupied lands and allied onslaught. They just liked more to use Red Army to that purpose. Unfortunately for them, Stalin manipulated them like puppets. Or less charitably: one evil genius and two dummies. As one may say we have two puppets and a puppet master. Funny part is that both Roosevelt and Churchill thought they were the puppet masters.

I like the story of the Teheran conference, where Soviets invited them to their embassy and then bugged every place in it. Stalin would get transcript of Churchills and Roosevelts conversations each morning, before negotiations would start later in the day.

 

About Moscow parade on May 9 with red army goose stepping through the Red Square. I think that Russians have yet to realize that Soviet Union fits in the same category as the Third Reich. The way out of this problem for them is to claim that they were victims of that system and represent a new country. In view of this parade, it looks like they consider themeselves the continuators of the Soviet Union and we should expect for them to atone for their past crimes, like Germany did.

 



Edited by cavalry4ever
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Posts: 517 		  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 03:52
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Some of this discussion is less than, shall we say, intelligent. If Soviets werent fighting WWII, political opportunists like Roosevelt and Churchill would have to assume the bigger role in the war. There would be more American and British casualties, but Allies were more than capable of defeating without the Red Army. There is no way Germany could sustain guerilla warfare in the occupied lands and allied onslaught.

 

This is a completely different topic subject.

 

I do not agree with you. British and USA forces may not defeat Germany in II WW if Soviets would not involve the war.  The Germans have been defeated by Soviets not by British and US forces because of stupid Hitler's idiot war plans.



Edited by Alparslan
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 12:19
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

Passively i certainly am glad for the fall of Hitler, but then i see the Soviet veterans screaming Stalins name and Waving Red flags in my homeland on May 9th and on several days of celebration, the past Red trash treat as something to be happy about, and then i see little else then the murderers rejoicing for bringing everything but culture here.

Well,the only thing to say to you is,forget the Soviets for a day,that day.If you can't just read a book for WWII without mentioning the Soviets at  all. 
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Posts: 1458 		  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 14:35

"Well,the only thing to say to you is,forget the Soviets for a day,that day.If you can't just read a book for WWII without mentioning the Soviets at  all. "

i don't think so, not my style.
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