Siberian-Mongolian Heritage of the Americas

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by gcle2003 Pinguin, it's interesting that you once again reject the idea of a black people influencing the Americas.   One in three singers and actors in the United States are Blacks. How come I could believe that. However, it is a fact Blacks only arrived in the Americas in the last four centuries.

And according to you, only had minimal influence on the music of the continent. Which is a bad joke.

Originally posted by gcle2003 The original inhabitants couldn't have been australoid,   They could, but they weren't.

You see, there you go denying the possibility.

Originally posted by gcle2003 Africans could not have crossed the Atlantic to America   They couldn't and they didn't.

And there you go again. You can't admit any possible taint. Unless you are absolutely forced to. You have to admit there were black slaves, but they couldn't possibly have had much influence, oh no!

Originally posted by gcle2003  (though pretty well anyone else could have crossed it in either direction),   Not everyone was a good sailor in ancient times. Europeans, in particular, were quite afraid of lossing sight of the coast.

Nobody liked losing sight of the coast, until proper navigational aids were available.
Once agin, you single out 'Europeans' for criticism.

And of course not everyone was a good sailor in ancient times. Not too many people are even today. I bet you can no more navigate than play - or even understand - music.

Originally posted by gcle2003 music in Latin America was only minimally influenced by Africans (you had to admit that). And that's just in the last week or so.   You know nothing about Latin America and its music. Please study it before continuing showing your ignorance... (where did I hear something like that before?)

I've studied it for years. I was a semi-pro dance musician in the fifties, when no-one was going anywhere socially without at least the samba, rhumba and tango, and a little later the mambo and cha-cha. I was a fan for a while of Yma Sumac, though I doubt very much her music was all that genuinely Andean. In fact I knew about Latin American music before I'd studied Arabic, Indian, Chinese or Japanes music.

Give up. You just make yourself out an idiot admitting you're no musician and at the same time claiming you know more about music than people who are.

Originally posted by gcle2003  Mentioning the Ainu doesn't affect anything. They aren't black and there's no real reason to classify them as australoid. The wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people doesn't even mention the word.   I see... You are acussing me of East Asian nationalism

No. I'm simply recording your statements.

Now, seriously, you are so hypocrite accusing me of racism, when you just reject any Middle Eastern influence in European Music...

Nothing racist about that. As I pointed out I also reject the idea that Arabic music (which is what you were talking about, not 'Middle Eastern music', whatever that is) influenced Chinese, Japanese or African music, and I don't see it had any influence at all on Indian (Indo-Pakistan-Bangla Deshi-Sri Lankan) music. On the other hand I admire Arabic (classical) music a great deal: it's far more complex and subtle than Chinese or Japanese and compares with European and Indian music (though the last edges out the others in complexity at least).

Once more - the proof here is in the music itself. It's well recorded (both in notated form and actually on disc), the descent and development of European from Greek is well documented (we even have Boethius' translation of Greek authorities in De institutione musica libri quinque), Arabic music is also commonly available - and the two styles of music are about as different as two musical styles can be.

There is factually no resemblance at all between the two traditions. None. that's why they can't even be played (properly) on the same instruments except the violin family and maybe the slide trombone.

I even have one of the Eddie Kochak- Hakki Obadiah - Fred Elias so-called Ameraba recordings, which attempt some kind of fusion of Arab and European tradition, but it really only works because they have an Arab front line on top of an American rhythm section.

But all of this goes straight past your empty head, doesn't it? Because you claim you know better than people who have studied the subject, and you want to build your own fantasy world.

That's your problem.

Come on, without Arabs, Persians, et al, Europeans would still be playing the lyre, like Nero did

There you go again inviting people to laugh at you. Is the secret behind all this that you are some kind of masochist who enjoys making himself look ridiculous?

Without Arabs, Persians, et al, Europeans would be playing exactly the same instruments they play today in orchestras and bands. Your assertion otherwise is not only unfounded, it is just plain stupid.

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by gcle2003 And according to you, only had minimal influence on the music of the continent. Which is a bad joke.   Why you came to this thread to trol? This thread is about the Siberian heritage of the Americas, if you didn't see the title.

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by gcle2003 And don't bother with Andean folk, since, like Cherokee, it may be American, but it isn't Latin.     I see. You call me an ignorant, but you don't see your contradictions. If Andean folk is not Latin because it has Indian roots, why should be Latin the music of Cuba or Puerto Rico, that is rooted in Africa?

Originally posted by pinguin Are you crazy? Andes music is hybrid as much as Hispanic Caribbean or Brazilian music. Just see the instruments: Charango is a miniature Spanish guitar, Bombo is the military Spanish drum in rustic version, and, of course, quenas and zamponas are Amerindian. The music is so hybrid that many times are song in Quechua, Aymara and Spanish simultaneously.

Originally posted by pinguin Andes folk is hybrid. I bet you mean Indigenous music.

This is a very freaky topic

Actually, some Siberians have been invited to pow-wows already... and they haven't feel out of place.

I absolutely agree with your approach.

Edited by pinguin - 14-Aug-2008 at 22:38

I agree with you that the Inuit culture was more advanced than the ones that existed by the time of Bering crossing. However, the examples you choose to il ustrate the difference seem to me to be wrong. Sewing cloths and fishing boats are very old and there is no reason to believe they didn't exist 15.000 years ago. The kayak is probably a recent invention, but more primitive boats must had exist, and also fur clothes must be quite old.

When the world began, our ancestors say, three brothers lived in Altay. They split up, leading their peoples to populate the Earth. One went west towards Turkey and Europe. One stayed in Altay. And one went east over the Beiring Strait to America.
-Nadya Yuguseva-

she's a shaman from Altay