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tkoletsis
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Topic: Ancient Greeks in America? Posted: 10-May-2008 at 01:28 |
The link says that it's from Mezin Ukraine from 23000 B.c but more details needed. Where are these ornaments now? Who dated them ?
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Posted: 10-May-2008 at 05:43 |
Originally posted by Julius Augustus
Originally posted by pinguin
yes. It is called zampona. You would hear it in Andes traditional music. But has a white-nose sound that is quite different from the old world equivalent. |
Omar do you have a recording of this wonderful instrument, would love to hear it.
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Here are some samples of zampona music. I hope you like it. It was filmed in Santiago, Chile, my home town.
Illapu: Zampona is used in the intermediate part.
Other groups, more folk oriented.
Clasical music played with zampona and quena. You won't believe it (Barroco Andino)
Edited by pinguin - 10-May-2008 at 05:45
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-May-2008 at 11:43 |
@TKoletsis
I don't believe Greeks reached America. If they did there would have been some kind of data about it. If a small group reached it accidentaly and never got contact back with the homeland, it wouldn't have left a mark unless some member of the group became a King or a God in that side of the world.
On the other side, I'm suprised to see the maeanders. To see a single one is not unusual in other non Greek cultures, but a continuous is indeed another thing. However, i still think it is a architectural coincidence and I will explain the reasons:
a) If Greeks arrived in the Americas, they wouldn't just build a bulding. They would probably exchange other knowledge with the locals. See for example what happened in Bactria.
b) Writting would be something that the locals would learn from the new visitors. Also, if some Greeks were responsible for the building/design of a temple there, we would have some insciptional data of the architect like the name and the age.
c) There's no traces of greek material culture that has been proven decisive in the last decades for identifying early greek culture.
d) There are many greek archeologists that would have given attention to this and would try to figure out what is going on. Unfortunately, i've never seen any of the big heads talking about it. At least someone would mention the possibilities.
e) I've been observing the Greek scientologists and their theories like the one saying that Greeks and Native Americans were the first people aliens gave birth to and bla bla bla. So, far they are the only ones i've seen bringing up this native american-greek connection, which again makes me skeptic.
f) My last point stands to the definition of a scientific theory by Karl Popper: "A theory is scientific only if it can be verified through expirements and observations and then probably can be dismissed". In other words, this theory is just a speculation that can't be prooved, therefore i don't see any scholarly ground for it.
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Flipper
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Posted: 10-May-2008 at 11:55 |
Ok, I found a picture of Palacio de las Grecas...Indeed this looks like somekind of a delphic Epsilon, but obviously this is not something built during BC years. So, here is a theory: " Greeks arrived during BC years and the community ended up building this in AD years. " Why doesn't the timeframes match? Where are the findings from the period between BC and AD? This looks more like a construction Byzantine Greeks would have made, which renders it unlikely that they would draw pagan symbols in the Americas. Simply some things do not fit together...I can agree that these findings are absurd and interresting but still, the theories lack scientific merit.
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Jams
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Posted: 10-May-2008 at 12:32 |
Originally posted by tkoletsis
The link says that it's from Mezin Ukraine from 23000 B.c but more details needed. Where are these ornaments now? Who dated them ? |
I have no futher info on the first one. 23,000 BC may very well be an over-estimation, but it really doesn't matter if it's Mesolithic or even Neolithic, it just predates Greece, and is unrelated to ancient classical Greece. We're talking stone age here.
Edited by Jams - 10-May-2008 at 12:34
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Posted: 10-May-2008 at 15:58 |
Yes. We are talking about some shared cultural patterns of the earliest people in Eurasia.
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ehecatzin
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Posted: 17-May-2008 at 01:11 |
tkoletsis Im sorry to
saythis but you've got no clue about how mesoamerican civilization has
developed, sure its your opinion based on personal obvservations and Im
actually happy when more people is interested in mesoamerica, but some
research on the matter of mesoaemrica makes absolutely clear how they
developed their own concepts language architecture, religion, etc.
I personally dont understand any of those crazy theories about other
cultures always been the ones behind mesoamerica's cultural
development, it its not Greeks, its Egyptians, Carthagians, Nubians,
Phoenicians, Romans, Atlanteans, Chinese...Im sick of it. is it really
that crazy of an idea...mesoamericans developing on their own? (OMG no
the horror)
Anyway, I didnt want to bother on reading the whole topic, but in the
OP, you give examples in the architecrual style of Uxmal, most
presicely the use of a pattern which can be seen (and not even similar)
in a Greek vase....well here I come.
In case you dont know, which I think you dont, that particular pattern it
called the Xicalcoliuhqui and its as ancient as Mesoamerica itself, its
a sacred simbol of deep meaning for mesoamericans, not only a
decorative pattern, this can be proven by the sole fact that it has
been present in EVERY mesoamerican cluture, no exception, you could for
example compare it to the cross for medieval european nations. you see
this in architecture, codex, painting, writing, it is everywhere. now
you are going to tell me a Greek vase that has a pattern similar to the
Xicalcoliuhqui
its prove that Greeks where here? I mean that over thousands or
representations of it in mesoamerica? no I dont think so.
Look...I dont want to sound harsh..tho I think its kinda late for that,
but do some real research before making wild claims like that, there's
already enough of those theories around already making a mess of
Mesoamerica in peoples mind.
Edited by ehecatzin - 17-May-2008 at 20:26
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Posted: 17-May-2008 at 03:42 |
Co sign!
Absolutely agree.
People should study more about the past of the Americas before resorting to fantastic ideas. The Americas has a wonderful history that cover ousand of years, from the time tribal men entered the Americas, to the development of the advanced civilizations that achieved so many things. Just study first.
Edited by pinguin - 17-May-2008 at 03:46
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stelarapas
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Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 13:42 |
there were people cease to talk, the stones continue to talk http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/Ancient-Greeks-America.html fantasy? why native americans when saw spanish butchers arriving thought that they were followers of god viracocha(apollon)? is that coinsidence too?? YOU must all stop creating false impressions and stop the forgery of OUR history, the history of planet earth. LIKE IT OR NOT those buildings called palacio de las grecas (and not Egyptians, Carthagians, Nubians,
Phoenicians, Romans, Atlanteans, Chinese )because they are build by prehistoric greek (gods) That is the truth. Because people who do not know true history are doomed to repeat itself . Flames are acceptable but with proofs and pictures otherwise are only empty words, I'm sick of you complexic history forgerers.
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Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 15:05 |
Jesus stelarapas, why did you awoke this crazy thread?
Originally posted by stelarapas
there were people cease to talk, the stones continue to talk http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/Ancient-Greeks-America.html fantasy?
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Yes. It is fantasy.
Originally posted by stelarapas
why native americans when saw spanish butchers arriving thought that they were followers of god viracocha(apollon)?
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First, Spaniards weren't butchers, architects or carpenters, they were soldiers of fortune.
Second, Viracocha was only venerated in Los Andes. In Mexico they believed in Quetzalcoatl that is a figure closer to Jesus Christ. Other natives, like Mapuches, were closer to the ideas of Spinoza, of an abstract God.
Now, for the idea they were God, some people has argue is a myth invented by the Spanish croniclers . But if not, the explanation is simple. Europeans looked as strange and weird as green martians in a flying saucer. When people (all people) don't find an explanation about an extraordinary even, supersticion is the usual answer.
Originally posted by stelarapas
is that coinsidence too??
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Parallel inventions aren't coincidence. All human beings have the same brains. The fact is they usually invent the same solution in the opposite sides of the planet.
Originally posted by stelarapas
YOU must all stop creating false impressions and stop the forgery of OUR history, the history of planet earth. LIKE IT OR NOT those buildings called palacio de las grecas (and not Egyptians, Carthagians, Nubians, Phoenicians, Romans, Atlanteans, Chinese )because they are build by prehistoric greek (gods) That is the truth.
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That's false. Period. You have no idea about prehispanic history and archaeology.
Originally posted by stelarapas
Because people who do not know true history are doomed to repeat itself . Flames are acceptable but with proofs and pictures otherwise are only empty words, I'm sick of you complexic history forgerers.
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Picture matching is just the pseudoscience of ignorance. No schollar will accept them as a proof of anything.
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Posted: 26-Apr-2009 at 15:28 |
The final page about the pseudo-scientific ideologies:
Please read this article carefully before continue:
"Goodbye Columbus? The Pseudohistory of Who Discovered America"
http://www.thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=74
This is about the techniques used to mislead the public and producing best sellers.
And this is from an old post against "the Black Olmecs" ideology, but I recomment its reading to anyone that claims prehispanic contracts. All pseudo-archaelogical myths are build using the same techniques.
I quote myself:
don't want to debate the point. Actually, I know the African contact theory was developed by Afrocentrist "schollars" like Ivan Van Sertima and Clyde Winters, which are really a joke for the serious archaeologists.
However, these are some points you should know if you want to enter in a discussion.
(1) Native Americans didn't have inmunity for the diseases that affected them so much during the 16th century. Most of those diseases originated in Africa. If contact existed they would have developed inmunity.
(2) There is no physical remain of contact whatsoever. All the "proofs" that are always mentioned are hoaxes, including the "African bones" and the Mande script (the Mande script was invented in 1820). The plant interchange and thousand of other pseudo-historical claims are also false.
(3) There is no genetical marker of African ancestry in pre-contact peoples of the Americas, and not in today's Native American pure populations.
(4) West African kingdoms become important ONLY in the Middle Ages. By that time Olmec culture had already being replaced by the Maya. Chronology does not match.
(5) West Africa simply did not have the tech for long distance sailing into the open sea. Actually, Native Americans were more advanced than Africans of the time in navigation. If any contact existed would have happened the other way around.
I suggest you read this article before you attempt to answer. Is called "
Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs"
It was written by a scientist and blow Van Sertima up.
Read it carefully, please.
Pinguin
Edited by pinguin - 26-Apr-2009 at 15:31
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stelarapas
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Posted: 27-Apr-2009 at 00:31 |
pinguin, your second post is full of irrelevant links( nowere mentions greece at all) your first post has a dogmatic- fascist schizoid air, well done! you trully show your eagerness to coverup-conceal the obvious. 1st why natives call these massive cyclopean structures of "unknown" origin Palacio De Las Grecas??? lets be rational about paralell inventions: sacret symbols are NOT inventions and trust me crosses, meanders, greek keys, spirals, double axes, antithetic ΕLs Λ, and delfic epsilons 3+Ε have 1000% EL-LAS point of origin(if you do not believe come at knossos palaces to see). AGAIN look closely the PICTURES http://www.greek-thesaurus.gr/Ancient-Greeks-America.html
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Posted: 27-Apr-2009 at 03:07 |
Stelarapes. If you want to argue about Greeks in the Americas before Columbus you better go to the Mormon Church nearby you. Go there and say Greeks where in the Americas and they will tell you they weren't, because there is no record in the Lamanites history of Greeks comming. The Lamanites, as you know, were (according to John Smith) the Lost Tribe of Israel that came to the Americas.
I bet among them you will find people who will listen to your ideas...
Edited by pinguin - 27-Apr-2009 at 03:08
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lirelou
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Posted: 27-Apr-2009 at 04:37 |
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="ProgId" ="Word.">< name="Generator" ="Microsoft Word 10">< name="Originator" ="Microsoft Word 10">
There are modern dissenting opinions regarding some of the diseases
that killed so many Native Americans in the Andes and Mexico after the arrival of Europeans. Both find
native pathogens to be the most likely killers.
First, the Andes:
“A new investigation, begun in Spring 2000, of the Andean
epidemic of 1524-5 described by the early Spanish sources has re-examined the
cause of the outbreak, believed by many to have been smallpox brought by the
Spanish. Following a rigorous study of the evidence we conclude, in a
report titled "The Great Andean Epidemic of 1524-5, Smallpox or
Bartonellosis?" that bartonellosis was more likely the
cause of the outbreak, and not smallpox as has been maintained in the
prevailing literature for many years.” (emphasis original)
http://www.interamericaninstitute.org/working_paper.htm
Second, Mexico:
“There seemed little reason to debate the nature of the
plague: Even the Spanish admitted that European smallpox was the disease that
devastated the conquered Aztec empire. Case closed.”
”Then, four centuries later, Acuña-Soto improbably decided to reopen the
investigation. Some key pieces of information—details that had been sitting,
ignored, in the archives—just didn't add up. His studies of ancient documents
revealed that the Aztecs were familiar with smallpox, perhaps even before
Cortés arrived. They called it zahuatl. Spanish colonists wrote at the time
that outbreaks of zahuatl occurred in 1520 and 1531 and, typical of smallpox,
lasted about a year. As many as 8 million people died from those outbreaks. But
the epidemic that appeared in 1545, followed by another in 1576, seemed to be
another disease altogether. The Aztecs called those outbreaks by a separate
name, cocolitzli. "For them, cocolitzli was something completely different
and far more virulent," Acuña-Soto says. "Cocolitzli brought
incomparable devastation that passed readily from one region to the next and
killed quickly."
”After 12 years of research, Acuña-Soto has come to agree with the Aztecs: The
cocolitzli plagues of the mid-16th century probably had nothing to do with
smallpox. In fact, they probably had little to do with the Spanish invasion. …‘If
cocolitzli had been caused by a hemorrhagic virus, Acuña-Soto realized, the
Spanish could not have brought it with them. Such diseases do not readily pass
from one person to another, so the virus must have been native.’”
”This raised two questions. First, were people prepared to absolve the Spanish
of responsibility for one of the great evils of the colonial era? ….. The second question was rooted in science: If
the Spanish didn't bring about the cocolitzli, what did?”
http://discovermagazine.com/2006/feb/megadeath-in-mexico/
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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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stelarapas
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Posted: 29-Apr-2009 at 23:56 |
SOME THINGS THAT "MORMONS" TOLD ME
http://www.hellotia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=712&Itemid=121
Pinguin my friend read ENRICO MATTIEVICH "JOURNEY TO THE MYTHOLOGICAL HELL(as)" or go to antarktika for a shower.
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Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 00:09 |
I don't read pseudo-archeology. I leave that for people that have NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL about the history of the Americas... But thanks, anyways...
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Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 00:13 |
Originally posted by stelarapas
lets be rational about paralell inventions: sacret symbols are NOT inventions and trust me crosses, meanders, greek keys, spirals, double axes, antithetic ΕLs Λ, and delfic epsilons 3+Ε have 1000% EL-LAS point of origin(if you do not believe come at knossos palaces to see). |
I'm having a difficult time making up any simple ornamental pattern that does not include any of the symbols you mentioned. If you claim all those symbols are Greeks that would mean that any doodle a person could possibly make will become evidence for the doodler being Greek.
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stelarapas
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Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 02:32 |
mixcoatl I agree, the fact that these symbols are scattered all around the globe must put us on "thinking" mode about the history that teach us and the real one. So maybe was greeks , but obviously there were a global prehistoric advanced civilization of whom little we know...
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Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 02:56 |
Never though that an easier explanation is that those so called "Greek" patterns are hardwired in the human brain? Anyways...
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edgewaters
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Posted: 30-Apr-2009 at 04:13 |
Originally posted by stelarapas
mixcoatl I agree, the fact that these symbols are scattered all around the globe must put us on "thinking" mode about the history that teach us and the real one. So maybe was greeks , but obviously there were a global prehistoric advanced civilization of whom little we know...
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No. That people all over the world drew spirals and wavy lines is not evidence of a global civilization. They're basic designs. Draw a line. Now try to do something different with it. Try to do as many different things as you can with it. You'll get spirals, wavy lines, zigzags, etc etc. You'll experiment with curves and angles. Ask somebody somewhere else to do the same thing. Compare what you've got when you're done; you'll find many similarities, because there are only so many basic designs you can make out of a simple line. If you drop a rope carelessly on the ground, you'll even see some of them.
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