Putin and Hitlers foreign policy

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Originally posted by kafkas Okay I'll leave Russia's domestic policies towards its "autonomous" Republics alone for now. Now I'm talking about Russian imperialism against independent states such as Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and other former Soviet states. I'm talking about Russian imperialism before, during, and after the Soviet Union.  Russia is just as bad as you accuse the United States to be if not worse. At least American imperialism doesn't involve forcing tens of millions of people to speak a different language or change their religion and culture. Russians, at least the politicians and military, are far from a people who "mind their own business" (I wish they did). Now as for the topic, I think Hitler and Putin both want to subjugate other nations, but their reasons for wanting to do so are different.   Nonsense. How Russia is forcing 10 millions of people now "to speak a different language." How "Russian imperialism" works against Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Azerbaijan now?   How?   Millions of Ukrainians, Azeri, Ukrainians and Georgians fyi are going to Russia now in search for work and better life. Russia has the second biggest number of immigrants in the world after the USA. Most of those are immigrants from these countries.   Abkhazia and South Ossetia are different story. First of all, in the 1990th most of the fighters who fought on their side against Georgians where their ethnic kin from North Caucasus, with the biggest part from Chechnia and even other "Chircassians" from Turkey and Middle East. Secondly, Russia is not going to recognize their independence. What Russia does now is simply the reaction to the US foreign policy, I mean Kosovo.

Russians may not force people to speak Russian and change their religion today, but during the Tsarist and Soviet times, which was relatively recently, they did. People are still suffering from the effects of Russification.

As for the immigrants, many of them were Russian left-overs from other Soviet Republics to begin with. The rest of them are just the by-products of Russification coming to Russia to do the work ethnic Russians don't want to do. I mean after Russians plundered their countries' resources for so long it's typical they have to go to Russia itself to find work. Even after the Soviet Union collapsed Russia is still supporting coups or totalitarian regimes in Turkic countries. Yes most of their Presidents or leaders are ex-KGB.

I don't mean to have a go at you, but most of my ethnic group was deported to Siberian labor camps by Russians at one point. So naturally my opinions on Russian foreign and domestic policy will be less sympathetic than most people's.








Edited by kafkas - 01-May-2008 at 18:40

Originally posted by kafkas most of my ethnic group was deported to Siberian labor camps by Russians at one point.

I am interested, What ethnic group are you from? I had been under the impression that you were from Azerbaijan.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 I thought we are talking about modern Russia. For sure Russian empire and the USSR commited many atrocities against different ethnicities these are facts and nobody argues with this.   However, you should bare in mind that the people who suffered most of all from all the Soviet repressions Stalinism etc. where Russian themselves. My grandgrand father died at the labor camp. Stalin himself was not even a Russian but Georgian as well as his favorite Butcher, Beria.   Futher more, you seem to be not aware of the real situation with the current immigration to Russia. Most of the immigrants are native of the former Soviet Central Asian republics.   A big part of them even don't speak Russian at all and now the Russian governement sponsors huge educational programs to teach them how to speak Russian.   Russia now has very good relations with Turkic counties starting. It never supported any coups there. What you said is not true.   Also everything is not just black and white as you wrote. A lot of people in the former USSR has good feelings about Russia.   Futhermore, if you want to look at history. Russia also has a comprehensive list related to its different neighbors regarding the numerous bad things commited in the past against Russians.   Germans killed tens of millions of Russians, but I don't feel any hate towards modern German people.   Hope you understand what I mean.

Bro, I don't hate Russian people, I hate their policies.

Russia has good relationships with Turkic governments, but do those governments and leaders have good relationships with their people? Of course not, they were all regional heads of the KGB in their respective territories. If it were not for Russia propping up puppet leaders like Kerimov in Uzbekistan that country would be much better off. Russia even sent a congratulatory message to President Kerimov after the Andijan Massacre where he crushed a pro-democratic revolt and killed over a thousand people. Remember Askar Akayev in Kyrgyzstan? Where did he flee to after he was overthrown? Russia of course, and it's the same place all these cronies run to when things start going bad for them.

As for coups, Russia had the democratically-elected Azeri President Elcibey overthrown for being a Turkish nationalist and installed pro-Russian ex-KGB officer Aliyev in his place. Now Aliyev is dead and his son is in power. Both Aliyevs have thrown many nationalists in jail and even went so far as to remove patriotic slogans from dead soldiers' tombs. Another democracy ruined. Also in the Karabagh War with Armenia Russian units directly participated in the assault and now Azerbaijan has over 1 million internally displaced persons living in tents.

So yes I still have major problems with the modern Russian state and its foreign policy, but not with your average Russian Joe.

Leaders of Central Asia and Azarbajian are self generated. Russia didn't install them. And there are many ethnic Russians in those countries who suffer the same under their rule. A good example is Turkenbashi, who was also a USSR communist party product, but it didn't stop him from disciminating and expelling Russians from Turkmenistan.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 01-May-2008 at 20:07

Originally posted by Anton Actually neither Russian empire nor USSR performed strong assimilation politics. Finns, for example, were allowed to study in their own language only after Finland was taken from Sweden.  In USSR time ethnic groups studied their own language, literature and history.  etc.

Belarus is already russified. If Soviet Union somehow could survive past 1990 - the Ukrainians would be assimilated by 2050, but Baltic countries by the end of 21th century with Latvia being the front runner. The central Asian republics could take more time because of differences in culture.

Originally posted by Roberts I wonder why there weren't huge outcry in Russia's government levels when Turkmenbashi expelled Russians from Turkmenistan?

Originally posted by Roberts Belarus is already russified. If Soviet Union somehow could survive past 1990 - the Ukrainians would be assimilated by 2050, but Baltic countries by the end of 21th century with Latvia being the front runner. The central Asian republics could take more time because of differences in culture.

Edited by Anton - 01-May-2008 at 23:49

I agree with our Russian members that Putin has not much in common with Hitler except maybe they are both rather short.

Russia gives citizenship to all the "former citizens of the USSR" regardless of ethnicity. Germany was concerned only with "racially pure" Germans.

You all seem to think I think they are in direct parallels. I'm saying there are serious comparisons to be drawn. That is all. (You cannot deny his interests in Georgia and Ukraine, and his antipathy towards the democratic movements there)