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Chilbudios View Drop Down
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pre-Columbian Contact Claims Encyclopedia
    Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 10:08

Originally posted by Chilbudios

YOU were the first to write 'mare Atlantis' with your -selfacknowledged-LIMITED knowledge of latin.
Of course I did. I said « But it's also not grammatically correct. Atlantis is the genitive form of the third declension noun Atlas. "Mare Atlantis", for instance, means literally "the sea of Atlas", ». As you can see is only about showing what genitive is with a illustrative example. I didn't relate it to the text, and certainly I didn't suggest to copy this construction and/or use it as it is.

Why did I add a (sic!) then? Well, mainly because this construction is in nominative, while the context and the grammar of the passage in question require a genitive (the genitive of "mare" is "maris", "stella maris" rings any bell?). Also, as far as I know "praenavigo, -are" means "to sail by", "to sail past", but not "to sail through" or "to sail across". And all the occurences of this verb (or of the noun derived from it) I am remembering right now refer to landmarks (islands, cities, coasts, mountains, etc.), not to bodies of water (check Pliny's book VI for more examples). It may be some usage I am unaware of, please bring it forward if you know of any.
 
Who are the 'current scholarship'?
If this is supposed to be a reply to my earlier claim of Western Indian shores being well-known to Romans (and their merchants) before the Flavian era, check Charlesworth' notes on the Periplus Maris Tongue Erythraei in The Classical Quarterly 22.2/1928. He makes the same argument on Strabo's knowledge and dates the travel of Hippalus some years after Strabo finished his work. A similar line is followed by Lionel Casson in his article on Rome's trade with the East in TAPA 110/1980. Or, for instance, http://www.wadi.cd2.com/assets/applets/LYSArev.pdf here (further discussion in David Meredith' article from JRS 43/1953) you will find that Annius Plocamus, the man who reached Ceylon was already in business in the late Augustan era.
 
 You were called by one of the forumers with whom you had a fight in AE years ago: " an arrogant who calls ignorant whoever disagrees with you"!! 
 Well, I do notice when someone lacks knowledge and with all that he insists to make points in a discussion.
However, isn't it ironic that you call me arrogant but at the same time you rant about my self-acknowledged limited (sometimes with emphasis added) knowledge?
 
Chilbudios, who cares about your copy-paste of translators?
Whoever wants to know what Pliny really said. You don't seem to be one of them ...
 
Do you understand that atlantis is a genitive of the noun praenavigatione? You have a knowledge of latin that is too much limited.
You really gotta to have some nerve to come to me with such a line. Just read my first paragraph from this reply to understand why.
 
As usual you change everything with the typical Balkan forgery of "byzantinisms". As Seiko writes, you are a genius with huge "intellectual capabilities" for this.  How has changed AE since the times of Komnenos!  I really miss Komnenos.
Be thankful is Seiko because Swatch believes I'm Jesus ShockedLOL
 
receive my farewell to AE. Brunodam
Your farewells tend to be like those retirement concerts. You never know when is the last one Tongue 


Edited by Chilbudios - 04-Nov-2008 at 10:32
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 10:26
Originally posted by Sanders

Even that source confirms basically what i said.
 
"The sailing route by Cabral and Vaco da Gama was approximately. the route commended for sailingships to the end of the 19th century. To avoid the doldrums just lying north of the equator and roughly west of 20 West sailing ships had to cross the equator at not more than approximately 30 West bearing southward beyond East Brazil lest they be caught by ocean currents and the south easterlies as so many ships later were, and forced along to the northcoast of Brazil and to the Antilles. Once with the influence of the south easterlies they were carried westward by the wind on their bow, amd the problem was to avoid beeing forced by both wind...
 
This, as the source implies, happened to Cabral and many others. Your source makes clear how the trade winds and currents  will automatically carry a vessel to the americas, unless one manages to avoid it. 
 
I don't understand what your emphasis is supposed to prove. These were Da Gama's instructions to sail south-west to get proper currents and winds. Of course, that once they were on the route, the ship was carried by currents and the winds, but the decision to navigate south-west of Cape Verde was intentional, they were on the course (only that they didn't know they have a big continent ahead). Also if you read past your "...", you'll see that in the last phrase is about a maneuver in which the skill of the pilot was essential. And the author concludes (p. 190) "Few voyages to Brazil and India were so well executed as Cabral's". I don't see any evidence of lost course, on the contrary.
 
Here is further in the book a map with Da Gama's course and with Cabral's (the later has a larger curve, but he intended to sail south-west and not follow the African coast):
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 04-Nov-2008 at 10:27
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 12:23
Originally posted by brunodam

... 
Sources please. This looks like cheap propaganda of the mestizo Chavez (el actual cacique de Venezuela).Confused
First, Chavez is not mestizo... who knows who he is LOL
Second, I am so tired of looking for "evidence" every single time a follower of the "Church of Hyperdiffusion-logy" enters this section of the site -which is quite often- that I refuse.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 17:31
Googling on 'hyperdiffusion' produced no matches at all.
 
Is that possible?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 20:03
Originally posted by gcle2003

Googling on 'hyperdiffusion' produced no matches at all.
 
Is that possible?
 
Make a search for "cult archaeology". You will find thousand of references LOL
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Posts: 0 		  Quote az24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 16:19
Originally posted by Chilbudios

 
 You were called by one of the forumers with whom you had a fight in AE years ago: " an arrogant who calls ignorant whoever disagrees with you"!! 
 Well, I do notice when someone lacks knowledge and with all that he insists to make points in a discussion.
 
So, you admit to be an arrogant with many forumers.   And this is allowed in the serious AllEmpires? Unbelievable. Because of this, soon or later AE will remain onesided in 'Points of View', like happens in this thread now.  I am out of it like Brunodam, who in my opinion (I have a Ph. D in History, even if this -according to someone- doesn't make me reach your intellectual level...) was right about your limited knowledge (not only in latin!) based on easy 'google research' and about your 'balkan byzantinisms'.


Edited by az24 - 05-Nov-2008 at 16:56
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 17:05
Originally posted by az24

So, you admit to be an arrogant with some forumers. And this is allowed in the serious AllEmpires? Unbelievable. Soon or later AE will remain onesided in 'Points of View', like happens in this thread now. I am out of it like Brunodam, who in my opinion (I have a Ph. D in History, even if this -according to someone- doesn't make me reach your intellectual level...) was right about your limited knowlegde based on 'google research' and about your 'balkan byzantinisms'.
Let's say I am arrogant (and I have a PhD in being arrogant), I am also Balkanic, Byzantine, Jew, Black, I am Satan himself if you want me to, but what is your problem? Did I insult you? I don't see it where and how. Did I say Az24 is This and That?
On the other side, the bulk of the contributions coming from you and Brunodam were arrays of insults thrown at the those having a different opinion than yours (recte me), so leave this hypocrisy aside and contribute to the topic if you have anything to say. So about Romans reaching the Americas? Big%20smile
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 17:21
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by Sanders

Even that source confirms basically what i said.
 
"The sailing route by Cabral and Vaco da Gama was approximately. the route commended for sailingships to the end of the 19th century. To avoid the doldrums just lying north of the equator and roughly west of 20 West sailing ships had to cross the equator at not more than approximately 30 West bearing southward beyond East Brazil lest they be caught by ocean currents and the south easterlies as so many ships later were, and forced along to the northcoast of Brazil and to the Antilles. Once with the influence of the south easterlies they were carried westward by the wind on their bow, amd the problem was to avoid beeing forced by both wind...
 
This, as the source implies, happened to Cabral and many others. Your source makes clear how the trade winds and currents  will automatically carry a vessel to the americas, unless one manages to avoid it. 
 
I don't understand what your emphasis is supposed to prove. These were Da Gama's instructions to sail south-west to get proper currents and winds. Of course, that once they were on the route, the ship was carried by currents and the winds, but the decision to navigate south-west of Cape Verde was intentional, they were on the course (only that they didn't know they have a big continent ahead). Also if you read past your "...", you'll see that in the last phrase is about a maneuver in which the skill of the pilot was essential. And the author concludes (p. 190) "Few voyages to Brazil and India were so well executed as Cabral's". I don't see any evidence of lost course, on the contrary.
 
Here is further in the book a map with Da Gama's course and with Cabral's (the later has a larger curve, but he intended to sail south-west and not follow the African coast):
 
 
 
 
You claim he went intentionally SW from Cape Verde isl. and kept intentionally going southwest . Where is your evidence, any historical documents to show?
 
Side info: da Gama 's set course from Cape Verde islands , was not southwest , but towards the guineas, Mina .Thats south east.
 
About the lost course. Its to be read in the records. Galvao ( son of Duarte , the famous chronicler)  confirmed Cabral had lost  his course after trying to find a lost ship. Thats historical evidence, not the 20 th century view of an author.
 
Galvao, Antonio, and Hakluyt, Richard, The discoveries of the world, from their first original unto the year of Our Lord 1555 / by Antonio Galvano ; corrected, quoted, and published in England by Richard Hakluyt, (1601) ; now reprinted, with the original Portuguese text, and edited by Vice-Admiral Bethune Hakluyt Society, London : 1862, pag. 63


Edited by Sander - 05-Nov-2008 at 17:42
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 17:37
You claim he went intentionally SW from Cape Verde isl. and kept intentionally going southwest . Where is your evidence, any historical documents to show?
 If you know something I don't, please bring it forward, so what exactlly is Galvao saying? Because this book has Galvao's journal in bibliography: http://books.google.com/books?id=vtZtMBLJ7GgC&pg=PA485
 
Until then, check in that book the section entitled "Sailing instructions: Discovery of Brasil", the proving text is "Cabral sailed on [...] until, supposedly according to Da Gama's instructions, he crossed the equator, and reached the area of 'scant winds'  [...] With these in bow, he sailed a generally southwestern course with the intention of making a position with the Cape of Good Hope directly to the east where he could pick up westerly winds to take him around the Cape" and "The sailing route taken by Cabral and Vasco da Gama was approximately the route recommended for sailing ships to end of the nineteenth century." and follows the same justification of taking a southwestern course until getting west of Cape of Good Hope. This latter paragraph ends, as I mentioned in my previous post, with a praise of Cabral's manuever.
 
The episode with the ship lost was around Cape Verde, but failing to find the ship, they continued with their journey.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 05-Nov-2008 at 17:40
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 18:31
Originally posted by Chilbudios

You claim he went intentionally SW from Cape Verde isl. and kept intentionally going southwest . Where is your evidence, any historical documents to show?
 If you know something I don't, please bring it forward, so what exactlly is Galvao saying? Because this book has Galvao's journal in bibliography: http://books.google.com/books?id=vtZtMBLJ7GgC&pg=PA485
 
Until then, check in that book the section entitled "Sailing instructions: Discovery of Brasil", the proving text is "Cabral sailed on [...] until, supposedly according to Da Gama's instructions, he crossed the equator, and reached the area of 'scant winds'  [...] With these in bow, he sailed a generally southwestern course with the intention of making a position with the Cape of Good Hope directly to the east where he could pick up westerly winds to take him around the Cape" and "The sailing route taken by Cabral and Vasco da Gama was approximately the route recommended for sailing ships to end of the nineteenth century." and follows the same justification of taking a southwestern course until getting west of Cape of Good Hope. This latter paragraph ends, as I mentioned in my previous post, with a praise of Cabral's manuever.
 
The episode with the ship lost was around Cape Verde, but failing to find the ship, they continued with their journey.
 
 
You 're arguing with 20 th century opinions, not with evidence.  So, real evidence, please.
 
Evidence for losing his course : 
 
"In the yeere 1500 and in the moneth of March, one Pedro Aluarez Cabral sailed out of Lisbon with 13 ships, with commandment not to come neere the coast of Africa to shorten his way; and he losing the sight of one of his ships went to seeke her, and in seeking of her lost his course and sailed till he came within sight of land."
 
Galvao , son of the famous Portugese chronicler , 1500's  ( op, cit.)  


Edited by Sander - 05-Nov-2008 at 19:19
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 21:00
Well, if you insist, I followed that book and searched for the primary sources enlisted in it.
 
Here you have it, as clear as you can get it:
 
 
Here's the passage on the lost ship:
 

Na noite seguinte à segunda-feira amanheceu, se perdeu da frota Vasco de Ataíde com a sua nau, sem haver tempo forte ou contrário para poder ser!

Fez o capitão suas diligências para o achar, em umas e outras partes. Mas... não apareceu mais!

E assim seguimos nosso caminho, por este mar de longo ...

Therefore that book is right on it, because it says the same thing: they failed to find the ship and they continued their way.

I don't know the context of your chronicler's testimony (however he writes around 1550!), but this one was a sailor on that fleet and I suspect his testimony is one of the most accurate we have on that trip.



Edited by Chilbudios - 05-Nov-2008 at 21:53
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 03:09
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Well, if you insist, I followed that book and searched for the primary sources enlisted in it.
 
Here you have it, as clear as you can get it:
 
 
Here's the passage on the lost ship:
 

Na noite seguinte à segunda-feira amanheceu, se perdeu da frota Vasco de Ataíde com a sua nau, sem haver tempo forte ou contrário para poder ser!

Fez o capitão suas diligências para o achar, em umas e outras partes. Mas... não apareceu mais!

E assim seguimos nosso caminho, por este mar de longo ...

Therefore that book is right on it, because it says the same thing: they failed to find the ship and they continued their way.

I don't know the context of your chronicler's testimony (however he writes around 1550!), but this one was a sailor on that fleet and I suspect his testimony is one of the most accurate we have on that trip.

 
Your line states that after they could not find the lost ship, they went on their way again (i.e. went on). 
 
Galvao (and senior)were high officials in service of the Crown and in position to have the  nautical information ( incl. the info related to Vasco da gama and the other explorers ). He was qualified /authorized to write a book about the Portuguese discoveries. Its explicitely stated Cabral had lost his course. Seems you're rejecting official information. Wink
 


Edited by Sander - 06-Nov-2008 at 05:46
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 08:05
Originally posted by Sander

Your line states that after they could not find the lost ship, they went on their way again (i.e. went on). 
Yes, which suggests they took a course they were aware of, a course which they intentionally held, they weren't lost.
 
Galvao (and senior)were high officials in service of the Crown and in position to have the  nautical information ( incl. the info related to Vasco da gama and the other explorers ). He was qualified /authorized to write a book about the Portuguese discoveries. Its explicitely stated Cabral had lost his course. Seems you're rejecting official information. Wink
 
  If it's official it doesn't seem it's correct. According to some US officials Iraq had WMDs. Wink
What's certain is that Galvao wasn't there (and he wrote his chronicle some 50 years later!) and Vaz de Caminha was. As a historian one must thus value the latter testimony over the former, unless there are other circumstances to consider.


Edited by Chilbudios - 06-Nov-2008 at 08:12
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 11:36
When a passage is quoted from a non-English source it's approved practice here to give a translation of it as well as the original.
 
Multicultural and polylinguistic though this forum's members are, the forum itself is English-speaking.
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Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by pinguin

Second, I am so tired of looking for "evidence" every single time a follower of the "Church of Hyperdiffusion-logy" enters this section of the site -which is quite often- that I refuse.


Indeed ... the only time people come down to this little basement room is to spew all kinds of bunk about Romans and space aliens. Most of them don't know and don't care much about precolumbian culture, which is actually quite interesting. It's a real shame.
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