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Sufism (Mysticism), instead of Bahaism in Iran!

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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sufism (Mysticism), instead of Bahaism in Iran!
    Posted: 07-Apr-2008 at 19:00

http://www.mazaresoltani.net/texts-taalim.php "Sufism is the spiritual reality of Islam, even if it was not known as "Sufism" at the inception of Islam. Phenomenologically speaking, it proves to be the essence of Islam, which gives life to it, like the soul gives life to the body. In Sufi terminology, Islam has two aspects: shar'at, its outer dimension, or body, and arqat, its inner dimension, or soul. These two aspects were inseparably joined in the person of the Prophet, but little by little through the history of Islam, there were people who paid attention only to the shar'at, Islamic law, and even confined Islam to this. Often the fuqah or 'ulam took this attitude. In contrast to them there were people who emphasized the spiritual reality or arqat, who became famous as Sufis."

It seems Sufism has become a new problem for Islamic regime of Iran, as you read here, two years ago in the city of Qom more than 1,000 followers of the Sufism were arrested and and finally their historical temple was destroyed, these days it is said they even want to destroy one of their major temples in Beydokht which is called "Mazar-e-Soltani".


Mazar-e-Soltani in Beydokht

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Mortaza View Drop Down
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 09:21
Weird, why do goverment hate sufism?
 
I mean, Sufists generally does not like to use force(and They avoid to use force against muslims even more.) and I am realy curious how can a sufi refuse sharat. Yep. They want more than shariat but they do not refuse it.
 
By the way, I am curious about iranian sufies, do they use music too? and do iranian goverment(or iranians) accept sufism as a different sect?
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 10:29
Because it takes away power from them by averting from Shiism. 

Iranian sufis use music - sufiism is accepted by the people but the government have a hard time with it. There are millions of sufis in Iran now whereas there only a about 150000 before the revolution.  Famous bands sing poems of rumi in songs like the kamkars, in fact in this video they used the Turkish Dervishes because it was at an international Rumi event in tehran:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBNGWNs1wkg


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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 11:04
I think protesting against the Ayatullahs by becoming a sufi is a good way to protest.
Originally posted by Mortaza

I am realy curious how can a sufi refuse sharat. Yep. They want more than shariat but they do not refuse it.

I would expect that it isn't that they refuse the Shariah, but rather that they pay attention more to the meaning of Islam than to the rules.
I know many people who focus on following all the rules of Islam so strictly - even the rules that really have nothing to do with Islam - that they miss the point. Just by being a strict conservative doesn't make you a good muslim, and it is that attitude that the Ayatullahs are objecting to. They would want you to follow the rules (their rules) and not think about the rules you are following.
The sufis don't have to violate the shariah - at least not God's shariah - to dissent from the Ayatullahs 'shariah'
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 14:25
but it doesnt really do anything rather create a statistic Omar, though Ive always been fascinated with sufism, the poetry, the endeavor, the music.

the ayatullah are afraid of losing grasp on iran hence their fear towards other sects of Islam.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 17:29
Sufism is a curse on the Islamic world. When sufism penetrated into the social fabric of society, it distroyed innovation, declared war on progress and changed the way people think and look to the world. This is by no means a call to ban them but it is the reality. Sufism spread in Iran because hipocracy. Mullahs say to the poor it is your duty to be poor and yet divert entire rivers to irrigate their pistachio fields. They take the khoms (1/5) and yet it seldom reaches those poor people in hardhit areas. They spend billions of their own money on foreign organization and adventures that the simple average man is the only one who suffers from. That is why they opt out to religious people who live a seemingly pious life, sufis, and turn into derwishs dancing on the sound of the ney and drums while high on opium.
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 17:38

Do you mean that the IRI likes Sufis?  I couldn't discern that from your words.  But if you do: there was a big battle in Qom a couple of years ago when mobs of regime fanatics tried to evict Sufis from the city.  Naturally the authorities sided with the mob.  And late last year in Borujerd, Lorestan - the Shia fanatics attacked a Sufi mosque, the sufis retaliated and then the police came and surrounded the Sufi mosque.

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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 19:09
I think Al Jassas means that the spread of sufism in iran is because of disenfranchised shia muslims who the Mullahs segregate even more every day, they give the money for the poor of their country for funding a meaningless adventure of some sort and the pistachio fields of Rafsanjani, the evil man. 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 21:22
Hello to you all
 
What I meant that only mullahs and their closest relatives benifit from the regime, Rafsanjani diverted a river to irrigate his fields leading to drying up several villages. It is estimated that 20 billion $ the income from khoms go not to relieve the poor, but to the pockets of the mullahs and support foreign adventures. Sufis offer a false hope. They pretend to be pious and deeply religious but in reality they are as bad as the mullahs.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 03:26
Al_Jassas
Sufism is a curse on the Islamic world. When sufism penetrated into the social fabric of society, it distroyed innovation, declared war on progress and changed the way people think and look to the world.
 
Are you being serious?
It was Sufism which spread Islam, Sufism won over the peoples hearts and minds, it was the great Sufi mystics which converted the masses, if it wasn't for Sufis the Iranians, Turks, Hindustani muslims, Balkan muslims etc would not have wholeheartedly embraced the religion.
 
Destroyed innovation? Sufism did not create a barrier to learning, the arts, culture and literature. The most well known and loved muslim poets were Sufi, they were always involved in the arts and known for tolerance and humanitarian views. 
 
Declared war on progress? what Sufi group are anti-progress?
 
The actual problem came from the orthodox religous elite, they destroyed innovation, declared a war on progress and were unable to tolerate other peoples views. They stopped changing with the times and got stuck with outdated laws which they refused to revise. Education took a back foot while modernization and technology was frowned upon.
 
 
That is why they opt out to religious people who live a seemingly pious life, sufis, and turn into derwishs dancing on the sound of the ney and drums while high on opium.
 
Not all Sufis are spinning because of Opium LOL 
Sufis are viewed as some kind of muslim hippies, focusing of peace, love and tolerance, its not really that bad from a world perspective.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 08:26
Hello Bulldog
 
Well, it seems that the misconceptions sufis spread already have taken over you. Indians, Turks, Iranians all became muslims well before sufism was established. Even in the Balkans, only the Albanians were islamised by sufis. Sufism really started back in the 11th century but spread after the mongol invasion. These people killed innovation when they controlled the state and confiscated endowments for educational institution to build Tekkis and shrines. They declared war on anyone who tries to bring something new or innovative in the field of war or science. In Tripoli, a provincial city, there was 300 registered schools with public funds, buildings and staff. There madrassah taught everything and prepared student for advanced courses in larger schools in the big cities. But the sufis confiscated all that. Al-Nabulsi said there was only a few number of people who ever know how to read or right in the city because all the 300 schols were closed but some 50 Tekkis were open. Katip Celebi, an Orthodox sunni scholar was a champion of innovation, the introduction of print presses and modern western ideas, this was in the 17th century. Yet the sufis, who controlled both the ulema and the janissaries refused that. Same thing happened for the Azhari scholars some of whom were brilliant mathematicians and scientists in those day tried to introduce simmilar measures that Katip Celebi said were also attacked. Al-Ghazali, the premier intellectual of the sufi movement deplored science, technology, trade, literature and innovation. He gratified idleness, isolation anything that takes you  mind off of worldly  business. These people spread superstition, attacked reason and urged the burning of book and strongly encouraged people not to read, even the Quran, becaue their minds could be poisened. hundered of scholar were murdered or imprisoned because of them and it was their interventions that distroyed the Ottomans when they killed many sultans by the hand of their cronies the janissaries.
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 08:48
I agree with Al Jassas that sufi's aren't always the best thing. Peace, love, and tolerance is certainly an important aspect to Islam & life, however too much of it is a bad thing too.

Sufis look far to one side of Islam, while the Ayatullahs too far to the opposite side. To a certain extent both are necessary, but too much of either one is counter-productive.
but it doesnt really do anything rather create a statistic Omar, though Ive always been fascinated with sufism, the poetry, the endeavor, the music.

the ayatullah are afraid of losing grasp on iran hence their fear towards other sects of Islam.

The Ayatullah position in power is claimed as being the heads of the shia Irani clergy. If the people reject the clergy, then they loose their grip and reason for power. They cease to represent Irani Islam. That is why they have such prohibitive rules against non-shia sects such as Sufis or Sunnis.
A large number of people swapping from shia to sufi effectively undermines their authority.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 09:04
Well, It is not sufist guilty that innovation was destroyed at islamic world. They are religious people so they used their energy for religion and at least, at Turkey, They did not fight against innovation.
 
By the way, They did not control ottoman empire. Ottoman empire is controled by ulema, patisah and army and only army is effected from Bektasi sect.
 
Ulema generally disliked from sufist movements.(They are generaly not controled by states). Even, Turkey does not like sufists. Ataturk increased ulema power(Diyanet) and destroyed sufists closed their tekkes and zaviyes.
 
Bektasi is sect of yeniceries. It is not sufism itself and majority of albania is bektasi not sufists.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 16:43
Nope it is. those Ulema were the same ones during the Abbasid era who were both mathematicians, poets and leaders of religion. Ijtihad was open for any competent scholar and there was no place for superstition in religion (I know some people here say that the entire idea of religion is superstitious but this is not the place for that discussion). But after Al-Ghazali, things started to change. Sufis began to infiltrate into the mainstream and since their dogma was completely at odds with orthodox Islam, they used the masses to reach their goals. When Baghdad fell and the mongols scurge emptiedthe Islamic world of its financial resources, it was sufi scholars who were supporting the mongols. The intellectual life in the Islamic world was extremely sick and there were many scholars who tried in vain to rescue it but with the mamlukes in power and the complete power sufis had on them and on the Ottoman empire (which was sufi mostly following the Qadiri order but later the Shatheli one). The ulema were sufis and member of the sufi orders and only through those orders you can reach somewhere. Those orders completely distroyed any kind of intellectual creativity first in their own field, fiqh, by closing the door of Ijtihad saying that everything written in the old books is good for today. Almost all the books written at that time were fiqh books either were commentries or abridgements of the great classics of fiqh. Anyone who issues a fatwa that goes against the mainstream even if he was right and has done it after years of original research was considered an outcast. History is full of those incidents and I mentioned some here.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 18:28
Al_Jassas
Well, it seems that the misconceptions sufis spread already have taken over you. Indians, Turks, Iranians all became muslims well before sufism was established. Even in the Balkans, only the Albanians were islamised by sufis. Sufism really started back in the 11th century but spread after the mongol invasion.
 
Indians, Turks and Iranians, the average people became muslim due to sufi folk Islam, even when most the establishment was muslim most of society wasn't, it was Sufi's which spread Islam to the masses.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 18:43
Again Bulldog read history well.
 
Islam entered India in the 9th century by trade and in the 10th by conquest. The first muslims were either Ismaili or shia both weren't sunni. the real history of Islam in India began with Mahmud of Ghazin in the 11th century. Sufism didn't start untill the 12th century and all the great orders started in the 13th. By that time most of the Turks were muslims, most Iranians were muslims and most Indian muslims were orthodox sunni. It was later that sufi influence grew sharply high not before. Most Turkic tribes in the begining of the 13 century were very ignorant about religion and sources say that pagan traditions were still strong. Sedentry Turks however were devout muslims. After Kose Dag, tribal leaders not seasoned statesmen built the beyliks and during those days, sufis were very active among them depite being weak during the time of the Seljuqs who also used them to gain more influence among the rebellious tribes.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 19:02
Al_Jassas
Islam entered India in the 9th century by trade and in the 10th by conquest. The first muslims were either Ismaili or shia both weren't sunni. the real history of Islam in India began with Mahmud of Ghazin in the 11th century. Sufism didn't start untill the 12th century and all the great orders started in the 13th.
 
Only a few elites were muslim, the masses were not, the average village had no understanding of the religion.
 
The Sufi's spread Islam to the common folk.
Also, it depends which Sufi movement your referring to as, Veysel Gharrani movement was from before the 12th Century.
 
By that time most of the Turks were muslims, most Iranians were muslims and most Indian muslims were orthodox sunni. It was later that sufi influence grew sharply high not before. Most Turkic tribes in the begining of the 13 century were very ignorant about religion and sources say that pagan traditions were still strong.
 
This is why Sufism was so important, it was the likes of Ahmad Yasavi who were responsible for the average Turk embracing Islam not the authorities. The Sufi's allowed Turks to carry on with their culture and lifestyle as long as it didn't contradict with the essential teachings of religion.
 
The same is true for the Iranians and Indians aswell.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 23:57
Its certainly not true for the Iranis. They were majority muslim long before sufism.
As for India sufi missionaries are certainly given a lot of credit in history books. Punjab certainly had a large Ismaeli community before the Ghaznavi invasions, which was not the result of sufis, modern Pakistan, probably, was mostly not converted by Sufis.
As for india and bengal, the effect of sufis is impossible for me to quanitify, often the first muslims entering the region were the Ghuri armies of Aibak and Khilji. So while sufis most probably had a big impact, quantifying that impact, and deciding how many were directly because of sufis is impossible.
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 14:10
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Its certainly not true for the Iranis. They were majority muslim long before sufism.
As for India sufi missionaries are certainly given a lot of credit in history books. Punjab certainly had a large Ismaeli community before the Ghaznavi invasions, which was not the result of sufis, modern Pakistan, probably, was mostly not converted by Sufis.
As for india and bengal, the effect of sufis is impossible for me to quanitify, often the first muslims entering the region were the Ghuri armies of Aibak and Khilji. So while sufis most probably had a big impact, quantifying that impact, and deciding how many were directly because of sufis is impossible.


concerning the Iranis, it was in reality that they were only Muslims by name (majority that is, Babak Chobin actually proves this when his revolts started, he swayed the common folk in those empires), even great generals during the Abbasid period such as Afshin, Abu Muslim and etc were still inherently Zoroastrian though to keep up appearances they were in fact Muslims by name. Sufism added a swaying attitude to most muslims at that time in Iran.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 23:54
The revolt of Babek was only successful in Azerbaijan, parts of Kurdistan and Zanjan. In Fars, Mazandran, Esfahan, Rai and Kerman people were still loyal and were still staunchly muslim. Abu Muslim was an extremely devout muslim unlike what many people may think, yes he employed lots of Buddhits and Zoroastrians but all the top brass were very devout muslims and that is why the Barmacids converted because he did not accept any non muslim for any high administrative position. If you read history carefully you will find that the struggle within the Islamic community shaped Iranian culture not Zoroastrian traditions.
 
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