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Ark of the Covenant

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  Quote amature historian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ark of the Covenant
    Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 13:10
Originally posted by red clay

Most of the legends surrounding the Ark speak of effects similar to radiation sickness.
The guardians at Aksum display similar after a period of time.



I am curious what are the sources for the legends surrounding the Ark in regard to your radiation sickness claim?   In the bible, the only person I recall being directly killed by the Ark was killed instantly, more like a giant electric shock than radiation.  


(I read one claim that the construction of the Ark as drescribed in the bible would act as a giant capacitor, with conducting gold over the insulting wood allowing a large and potentially lethal static charge to build up.  Don't necessarily by it, seems having the gold on the outside will lend itself for the charge leaking away, but I suppose the gold =ould build up quite a static charge if properly insulated.

The Ark had one of 2 fates, in my view:

a.  It was destroyed during one of the times that Jerusalem was captured.

b.  It was hidden during one of the sieges of Jerusalem, and became lost as the those responsible for hiding it were killed during the capture of the city.

Had an enemy, like the Romans, captured the Ark, we would have seen evidence of that, like the menora and other Temple treasures show on Titus Column,  In neither the Babylonian and Roman records is the Ark listed.  


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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 13:43
Interesting thought about questioning whether the Ark really did have any energy effects according to the bible etc.

As to the Romans, the Titus column does actually possibly show an ark-like object. And a medieval picture shows an ark like object being carried before Pope Gregory during a plague event. (There is also an ark like object in painting in Monreale?) So they possibly may have an ark in the Vatican but it may only be a later 2nd ark from 2nd temple made after 500s bc. Antiochus Epiphanes is claimed by some to have captured such a 2ndary ark. The Vatican don't seem to have the ark though because otherwise they wouldn't be allegedly looking for it at Kiriath Jearim?

I find it hard to believe they would have let i be destroyed or captured.

If it was still in Jerusalem/temple in the Babylonian or other attack then somewhere nearby in Jerusalem is the most likely unless they were able to get away in some way and there was some safe area in some direction. The problem is they don't know for sure whether the ark was there anytime after Hezekiah's last testifying/witness statement. If it was removed during the bad reign of Manasseh &/or Amon then where could they have gone that was safe?


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 23-Jul-2017 at 13:49
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  Quote amature historian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 15:18
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Interesting thought about questioning whether the Ark really did have any energy effects according to the bible etc.

As to the Romans, the Titus column does actually possibly show an ark-like object. And a medieval picture shows an ark like object being carried before Pope Gregory during a plague event. (There is also an ark like object in painting in Monreale?) So they possibly may have an ark in the Vatican but it may only be a later 2nd ark from 2nd temple made after 500s bc. Antiochus Epiphanes is claimed by some to have captured such a 2ndary ark. The Vatican don't seem to have the ark though because otherwise they wouldn't be allegedly looking for it at Kiriath Jearim?

I find it hard to believe they would have let i be destroyed or captured.

If it was still in Jerusalem/temple in the Babylonian or other attack then somewhere nearby in Jerusalem is the most likely unless they were able to get away in some way and there was some safe area in some direction. The problem is they don't know for sure whether the ark was there anytime after Hezekiah's last testifying/witness statement. If it was removed during the bad reign of Manasseh &/or Amon then where could they have gone that was safe?

I don't recall any "Ark" like object depicted in Titus' Column, nothing with winged cheribum on it that th3 bible desribes.  A box might have been shown, but nothing like what the bible describes in detail.  Can you show me a picture of the object you have in mind shown on Tutus column?

If the Jews could not prevent their temple from being destroyed and their city captured, they would likely not be able to protect the Ark either.  We know other temple treasure was captured, the Jews were not able to hide them, why should we think the Ark be any different.

The Jews might have destroyed the Ark themselves to prevent capture I guess, and that would explain the silence - the Jews would hardly record the fact they had to destroy the Ark because God was unable to protect it.  But unlikely, the Jews would have hidden it, or allowed it to be captured, and trust God to see it was returned, along with the other temple treasure,
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 16:24

Yes it is true that it doesn't totally look like the ark in that there are no winged cherubim on top, but the object in pictures that i have seen nevertheless does still look to me abit like the (an) ark in some ways (box carried with poles very much like the ark). I only have dialup and only an older o.s. software so i'm not really geared up for pictures & videos etc, esp since google images got slower since changes, and i can't remember where i recently saw the picture again, but fortunately i have easily found it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rom,_Titusbogen,_Triumphzug_3.jpg . Its the object on the (our) right hand side with the poles crossed like a St Andrew cross. True no cherubs on top, but i still can't shake the ark-like similarity, esp when also with the menorah and other temple stuff. (Though i may not have seen very close-up large clear enough pictures and i could be wrong.) Zechariah father of John Baptist might have been standing by such a second ark when angel visited?

Sure they couldn't stop the city eventually falling and capture. But they knew for some time between start of the attack and the final fall/capture of the city and temple, and so they had time to hide the ark somewhere safe. It is possible to hide something where people won't find it. And they especially might not be likely to find hidden things (underground) in a devastated and deserted site. The other treasures were not as high value as the ark, so they didn't mind so much their capture.

"God" was only "unable" because he has to allow humans & world to go their way and do their things if they refuse to love him. Some priests or prophet loyal to God might have hidden the ark for prophetic future.

They might even have known all along and the silence is just to exoteric, though it looks like they don't know because they are allegedly looking for ark at Kiriath Jearim (unless they are really looking for the teraphim there or something else).

I did a rough timeline of all Israelite biblical history to view periods since ark's last definite mention.

God/eternity
"gap"/"Sammael's flood"?
Day 1
2nd day
3rd day
4th day
5th day
"6th day man" (Lilith, Samael)
7th day
8thdayman/Adam
Eve
Cain
Enoch
Irad
Mehujael, Methusael
Lamech
Tubalcain, Jabal, Jubal
Seth "8th"
Enosh
Kenan/Cainan
Mahalalel
Jared
Enoch
Methuselah
Lamech
Noah c 1656 am
Shem, Ham, Japheth
Arphaxad
Shelah
Kenan?
Eber/Hud
Peleg, Joktan
Reu
Serug
Nahor
Terah
Abraham c 2000s bc
Isaac
Jacob/Israel [= Khufu/Cheops]
Levi, Joseph c 1800s bc
(gap), Ephraim, Manasseh
Kohath
(gap)
Amram
Moses, Og of Bashan c 1400s bc, c 2666 am.
Joshua/Hoshea
Caleb
Kenaz
Cushanrishathaim, Othniel
Ehud
Shamgar
Deborah/Barak
Gideon/Jerubbaal
Abimelech
Tola, Jair
Jephthah
Ibzan, Elon, Abdon
Philistines, Samson
Eli
... & ...
Samuel
... & ...
Saul
Ishbosheth
David c 1000s bc?
(Absalom)
(Adonijah)
Solomon (Hiram, Genubath, Menelik)
Rehoboam (Jeroboam, Menelik, Adramis)
Egyptian (Shishak/Susakim, Zerah) c 900s bc
(Israel & Judah & Edom & Syria kings/chronicles)
Neo-Assyrian (TP3, Sennacherib) c 700s bc
(Judah kings/chronicles c 600s bc)
Neo-Babylonian/Chaldean (Nebuchadnezzar, Necho) c 600/500s bc
Medes (Darius)
Achaemenid/Persians/Iranian (Cyrus)
[Athenian]
[Spartan]
[Theban]
Greco-Macedonian (Alexander) 300s bc.
Antigonid
Ptolemies/Egypt (Leontopolis)
Seleucids/Syria (Antiochus)
Maccabees/Hasamoneans
Herodian/Boethusian/Romans (vs Parthian) (Caesar, Jesus) bc/ad
Roman (Titus)
Byzantine
Persian/Parthian
Arabs/Moslems/Caliphate 600s
Crusaders/Templars 1100s
Ayyubids (Saladin)
Mamlukes
Ottoman Turks
French (Napoleon) 1700s-1800s
Ottoman Turks
Egyptian
Ottoman Turks
British/League of Nations 1900s
Israeli/Zionist/living memory (Wyatt, Rabin, Arafat, Netanyahu) 2000s ad
future/unfulfilled prophecy, eternity

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  Quote amature historian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 19:45
I came across an article that said Josephus said that the room that housed the Holy of Holies in the Temple was empty, so that in the Secon Temple period (by Roman times) the Ark was already missing.

So the Ark either became lost during Egypt's (Sheshonq's) invasion of Judah, or the Babylonian's.   The bible did say Shishonk carried away everything of gold from the Temple in the reign of Solomn's son, and we never hear of the Ark again in the Bible, although we know the Ark was in the Temple in the time of Solomn himself.

Another possibility is that the Ark just rotted away - it was just made of wood covered with gold, and perhaps in a 1000+ years a wooden object could have become rotten.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2017 at 13:27
Yes it is generally considreed that the ark was missing ever since time of Babylonian captivity.
Thats interesting i didn't know Josephus said such, i'll have to look it up. I think he also said the Ark was at Mt Gerizzim? (Is it coincidence that name Kiriath Jearim similar in English?)
But i wouldn't place too much faith in Josephus.
The bible is considered to imply in Kings/Chronicles that the Ark was definitely still there in Hezekiah's reign. Only mention after is in Josiah reign but it is not definite. Jeremiah possibly implies that the Ark was still there in his time before Babylonian captivity.
So i personally don't think Shishak [or "Menelik"] took the ark. (Shishak/Susakim may be Tutankhamun, (Zerah may be Ramses 2 "Sestura",) and his gold may have come from temple treasures. He is certainly not Sheshonk as orthodox have it, for various reasons including that their campaigns don't match.)
Seems to have vanished most likely between Hezekiah or Josiah and Zedekiah/Jeremiah times. Only major incidents then were bad reign of Manasseh & Amon, and Babylonians attack.
Re the Manasseh & Elephantine & Ethiopia theory Hancock's book 'Sign & Seal' is very interesting, and Bob Cornuke's.

Agreed that it is not very likely it would have lasted very well for so long. Depends on how well preserved by hiding place. But i had the thought awhile ago that the 10/12 commandment tablet/tablets would last, and the gold.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2017 at 12:59
I'm having probs posting. I've tried to reply to 5-6 threads but get error messages. Anyone else having issues? 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2017 at 13:37
Test post.

Forgot to mention that Egyptian has mention of the "ark of the A(a)mu" (I think Bristowe mentions this?)
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  Quote amature historian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2017 at 20:06
Originally posted by red clay

I'm having probs posting. I've tried to reply to 5-6 threads but get error messages. Anyone else having issues? 

No, I have not experienced any log in problems
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  Quote Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2017 at 23:37
Most of the Old Testament stories were written in Hellenistic times.

 Joseph had horns and wore the the crown of laurel associated with Apollo ( Laurus Nobilis )( Gen 49:26 / Deu 33:16 ) , the story of Joseph concludes that he was placed inside a 'Chest' ('arown), which is the same Hebrew word for 'Ark' of the Covenant. 

The horns, crown of laurel and being handed over the crown of Egypt,  this identified him as 
Alexander the Great. 

Alexander the Great died early,   but soon after,  his body was placed inside a  coffin upon a funerary cart that travelled through Syria,  was hijacked many times( 1 sam 4:11) , it went to Macedonia and then to Egypt.

The proof is 1 Samuel 6:8   ' Funerary Cart '
 - Take the Ark (Coffin) and lay it upon the Cart 

The Ark of the Covenant  was Alexander's Funerary cart. 

Towards the end of the Ark's journey, it stopped at 'Beth Shemesh'  ( House of the Sun ) and Egypt was the final resting place of Alexander's funerary cart.
 



Edited by Lee - 06-Oct-2017 at 00:31
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