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Ark of the Covenant

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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ark of the Covenant
    Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 00:49
Gee I `m not posting yesterday because I`m editing my  posts today:):):)
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 01:47
Originally posted by Sparten

The Hebrews are hiding it today then  Red Clay. Orrcums razor, it stopped appearing after thge Babylonians even when old Cyrus showed up, ergo it got busted at that time. I saw that show too, and that Israeli acedemic was the most spot on.
 
 
Occam's razor doesn't apply, this is hardly scientific theory.  Fun, but not science.Wink
 
 
Two things bother me about the idea that the Babylonians carried it off.  First, the amount of Gold in the Ark was not enough to make it an attractive prize.  The bulk of it was Acacia wood.  The gold wasn't much thicker than modern gold leaf, it wasn't solid gold.  This makes it a relatively easy item to reproduce.  They had the specs. needed to build one, which is what I believe they did,  once the most important item, the covenant was safe.  That's the 2nd thing btw.  They removed the tablets from the Ark.  Making it easier to transport without drawing undue attention.  The Ark was most likely burned to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.  Easy to do if you know you can duplicate it later.
If you  asked a Hebrew scholar I'm fairly sure he would tell you it was the Covenant that was important to the Hebrews of that time, not the Ark.
 
 
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 02:17
 According to Exodus covering the box was the kapporet, a pure gold covering that was two-and-a-half by one-and-a-half cubits. Attached to the kapporet were two sculpted Cherubs, also made of pure gold.
 Surely the Babylons would have recorded something of that nature in the treasues they had taken, whick makes me believe there was nothing of the sort, only what the writers of the Exodous invisioned this ark to be.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 02:58
 qoute- hardly scientific theory.  Fun, but not science, it surely is  science. I get a kick out of this forum in considering  true history as in the case of atlantis or the ark of Covenant and classifying it as historical amusment ,when in fact it is true science Wink
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 03:54
Originally posted by docyabut

 According to Exodus covering the box was the kapporet, a pure gold covering that was two-and-a-half by one-and-a-half cubits. Attached to the kapporet were two sculpted Cherubs, also made of pure gold.
 Surely the Babylons would have recorded something of that nature in the treasues they had taken, whick makes me believe there was nothing of the sort, only what the writers of the Exodous invisioned this ark to be.
 
 
It is the lid, if you will.  Again, if detached from the Ark, it would be easier to transport.  The Ark did indeed exist, probably many times.  By that I mean it has been destroyed and remade many times.  The only true Ark otc. would be the one with the Covenant in it.  That is what makes it sacred and was supposedly the source of it's power.  It is the Covenant or the tablets, that is actually being sought.  Without it the Ark is just a fancy wooden box with a covering of gold leaf which, btw, has the ability to store an incredibly powerful static charge.  The theory that this was possible was tested years ago and more than once.  
 
 


Edited by red clay - 29-Mar-2008 at 04:02
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 05:01
It should be noted that nowhere in the Bible does it claim that the ark had a incredibly powerful static charge, That part of the story comes from oral tradition.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 05:24
In the ethiopian  theory why would they take the ark away in 1000 bc before there were any attacks on the city.

According to the Bible, the temple was pillaged many times during the course of its history

by king Shishak of Egypt, c.933 BCE (1 Kings 14:25, 26);
by king Asa of Judah, c.900 BCE in order to persuade Ben-Hadad I of Damascus to come to his aid against Baasha of Israel (1 Kings 15:9-24);
by king Jehoash of Judah, c. 825 BCE, in order to pay Hazael of Damascus, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 12:17-18);
by king Joash of Israel, c.790 BCE (2 Kings 14:14);
by king Ahaz of Judah, 734 BCE, to persuade Tiglath-pileser III of Assyria to come to his aid against Pekah of Israel and Rezin II of Damascus (2 Kings 16:8, 17, 18);
by king Hezekiah of Judah, 712 BCE, to pay king Sennacherib of Assyria, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 18:15, 16).
by king Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon who pillaged it twice- once in 597 BCE, and again in 586 BCE, after which he destroyed it (2 Kings 24:13; 2 Chr. 36:7). He burned the temple, and carried all its treasures with him to Babylon (2 Kings 25:9-17; 2 Chr. 36:19; Isaiah
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 13:27
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by docyabut

 According to Exodus covering the box was the kapporet, a pure gold covering that was two-and-a-half by one-and-a-half cubits. Attached to the kapporet were two sculpted Cherubs, also made of pure gold.
 Surely the Babylons would have recorded something of that nature in the treasues they had taken, whick makes me believe there was nothing of the sort, only what the writers of the Exodous invisioned this ark to be.
 
 
It is the lid, if you will.  Again, if detached from the Ark, it would be easier to transport.  The Ark did indeed exist, probably many times.  By that I mean it has been destroyed and remade many times.  The only true Ark otc. would be the one with the Covenant in it.  That is what makes it sacred and was supposedly the source of it's power.  It is the Covenant or the tablets, that is actually being sought.  Without it the Ark is just a fancy wooden box with a covering of gold leaf which, btw, has the ability to store an incredibly powerful static charge.  The theory that this was possible was tested years ago and more than once.  
 
 
And this is exactly what Parfitt has found, the Ark, not the covenant.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 20:26

Walraven, the Ark and its sanctuary were "the beauty of Israel" (Lamentations 2:1). Rashi and some Midrashim suggest that there were two arks - a temporary one made by Moses, and a later one made by Bezalel.

Even the scolars suggest there is a reference to two different arks. I have to go with  Parfitt ,the writers of Exodus never seeing the ark or the tablets, imagined the ark to be like what the egyptians would have made. And your right if Moses wrote the tablets on stone they should exist. However much of the story is not what it appears to be  and Moses could have written them on papyrus .   


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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 13:36
I can`t imagine Moses the busy man he was  writing the laws on stone as they were so long, were`t there more laws that were added ?
 
Papyrus was around.
 
The earliest extant documented papyrus comes from Egypt's 1st Dynasty, but we believe it may have been used as early as 4,000 BC. It's use continued until about the 11th century AD. 
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 15:23
All that is known for certain is that the tablets that had the original Commandments were supposedly kept in it.  Anything else is conjecture.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 19:54
Maybe the Hebrews did make a very small Calf out of gold to worship, but not like the movie pictured, a huge calf with people hanging all over it %5bSmile%5d Out of earing rings? How much gold would a slave have owned? And I sure the Egyptains would`nt have let them haul all this gold away. %5bSmile%5d
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 01:42
I think Tudor Parfitt did a very good research into his quest. I can`t help but think much of what was told in oral history when written the base was glorfied, the ark much like  legends of the city of atlantis was all covered in gold and sliver. the Ark could have been just what was said in Deuteronomy,Moses alone made the ark out of only wood.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 04:27
The instructions Moses had received said wood, Acacia, tbe.  "Covered in gold".   Docyabut, remember it depends on translation, how much influence other periods had on the writings etc.  Also, if I remember, the Ark you speak of was the temporary one.  This sort of goes back to what was saying about there having been many arks.  Any Ark constructed in manner instructed would have been "the Ark" once it contained "the Covenant".
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 12:50
Red Clay, that was my frist thought to, that there were two arks made, however after going over what Parfitt had suggested, the writers of the Exodus never really seeing the ark, could have imagined the ark to be like what the egyptians would have made,after all the books of the Bible are just that books that were written after the fact.
 
 In Deuteronomy it say the ark was made only out of wood.


Deut 10:1: "At that time the Lord said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood."

Deut 10:2: "And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou breakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark."

Deut 10:3: So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands.
 
 
 
I realize  I `m mosty talking to myself here Smile however I find this subject so interesting. Thanks for your replys. 
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 13:11
History of the Ark
The Ark accompanied the Jews throughout their time in the desert, traveling with them and accompanying them to their wars with Emor and Midian. When the Jews crossed into the land of Canaan, the waters of the Jordan River miraculously split and the Ark led them through (Josh. 3). Throughout their conquest of the land, the Jews were accompanied by the Ark. The most dramatic demonstration of its power comes when the Jews breached the walls of Jericho merely by circling them, blowing horns and carrying the Ark (Josh. 6).

After the conquest was completed, the Ark, and the entire Tabernacle, were set up in Shiloh (Josh. 18) . There they remained until the battles of the Jews with the Philistines during the Priesthood of Eli. The Jews, after suffering a defeat at the Philistines' hands, took the Ark from Shiloh to Even-Ezer in hopes of winning the next battle. But the Jews were routed, and the Ark was captured by the Philistines. Back in Shiloh, Eli, the High Priest, immediately died upon hearing the news (I Sam. 4).

The Philistines took the Ark back to Ashdod, their capital city in the south of Canaan, where they placed it in the temple of their god Dagon. The next day, however, they found the idol fallen on its face. After replacing the statue, they found it the next day decapitated, with only its trunk remaining, and soon afterward, the entire city of Ashdod was struck with a plague. The Philistines moved the Ark to the city of Gath, and from there to Ekron, but whatever city the Ark was in, the inhabitants were struck with plague. After seven months, the Philistines decided to send the Ark back to the Israelites, and accompanied it with expensive gifts. The Ark was taken back to Beit Shemesh, and, according to midrash, the oxen pulling the Ark burst into song as soon as it was once again in Israel's possession (A.Z. 22b). The actual text of the story, however, tells a much grimmer tale: The men of Beit Shemesh were punished for staring disrespectfully at the Ark, and many were killed with a plague.

From Beit Shemesh, the Ark was transported to Kiryat Yearim, where it remained for twenty years. From there, King David transported it to Jerusalem. En route, however, the oxen pulling it stumbled, and when Uzzah reached out to steady the Ark, he died immediately. As a result of this tragedy, David decided to leave the Ark at the home of Obed-edom the Gittite. Three months later, he moved it to Jerusalem, the seat of his kingdom, where it remained until the construction of the First Temple by David's son Solomon (I Sam. 5-6). When the Ark was finally placed in the Temple, the midrash reports that the golden tree decorations that adorned the walls blossomed with fruit that grew continuously until the Temple's destruction (Yoma 39b).

The Ark remained in the Temple until its destruction at the hand of the Babylonian empire, led by Nebuchadnezzar 586 BCE. What happened to it afterward is unknown, and has been debated and pondered for centuries.

 
 
Surely the Babylons would have recorded something of that value in the treasures  they had taken.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2017 at 14:07

The Ark of the Covenant, one of the most famous lost artifacts of the Old Testament of the Bible, has been in the news again a few times. On the more far fetched side are claims of the Ark being at Oak Island, or at Temple Hardewyke. A more serious claim is that archaeologists are soon starting an excavation at Kiriath Jearim and allegedly have hopes of finding the ark there. Will they find the Ark there? It is our opinion that they won't. (They might find the teraphim that were there though?) The Jews have a natural expertise in biblical scholarship, and there are some clever elite gentile scholars, however the non-messianic-christian Jews and non-genuine-christian gentiles both lack or miss one or more key clues in this ark search. At the end of this post we give a list of all the main Ark location theories of others &/or ours. From this list we picked the locations which seem most likely to us. Below we briefly write on the reason for the most likely few locations (Bethesda, Engedi, Ethiopia, Calvary, Galilee).

Bethesda/Bethzatha/Bezetha:
Scenario is the Ark was hidden here sometime between Josiah/Hezekiah and Zedekiah/Jeremiah.
Possible reasons for this location include:
- In John 5:2 an angel comes down a causes the waters of pool of Bethesda to stir and whoever jumped in first was healed. This could possibly be connected with the Ark. In the pseudepigrapha an angel comes down and hides the Ark in some place near the temple.
- Bethesda is not far from where the Temple was.
- It is one of the hiding places of treasure in the Copper Scroll.
- The name Bethesda means "house of mercy/grace". This could possibly link with the "mercy seat" on the Ark. It would be special message to Jews and gentiles re "saved by grace", and "I require mercy not sacrifice". The pool of Bethesda had 5 porches/colonnades, and 5 is number of grace, and/or connected with 5 books of the law. Bethesda has also been confused with Bethsaida "house of food/fishing". Plus the "sheep market/gate" there (Bethesda) also links with christian message too. Bethesda was "discovered in 1888" which recalls Jesus has value 888 (and number 8 means "new" like Adam "8th day man", Seth was 8th after Cainites, 8 souls in Ark, David 8th son of Jesse, circumcision 8 days old, etc).
- Some of the claimed ark sightings under Jerusalem could possibly be of ark here? Wyatt supposedly saw ark under either Gordon's Calvary / Skull Hill or "old city of Jerusalem", and later when he went to go back with others he couldn't find the entrance.
- This is probably one of the more safer locations re past and present contemporary situations? Also it is possible that the ark has decayed alot now (eg why does angel no longer come?) and so if/when found it will become not a major issue/deal anymore (like some bible verses possibly imply)?

Engedi:
Scenario is the ark was taken to refuge here maybe in Manasseh's reign, or before Babylonian exile.
Possible reasons for this location include:
- An ark book said that there is a sealed-up cave at what is thought to be the true site of David's cave of Engedi (not the popular tourist one in same wider area). (However this was a couple of decades ago and we don't know if they have since opened this cave?)
- Engedi is a good possible refuge place not too far from Jerusalem.
- In the Bible has major emphasis on God's (Yah's) promise to David for ever. There are quite a few places where king David and covenant and the ark/temple closely follow each other (eg 2 Chron 23-24; Ezek 34/37-40). "David" is corresponded with "Jesus" (Yeshua). Some think that the mercy seat on ark will be Jesus'/Messiah's/David's throne? Engedi / Hazazon-tamar also has links with palms, which recalls "blessed is he that comes in the name of the lord". (And link with "fishermen" in Ezek 47. Is also near Betharaba which recalls John the Baptist? It was an essenes site. Acacia grows there.)
- In the Engedi area is a place-name Cades which recalls a nick name of Jerusalem 'Kadesh' "holy"; and a place-name Tel Goren which recalls the koren "horns/rays" of Moses; and a name Ein Shulamit "peace" which recalls Jeru-salem and Solomon.
- Could be a link of Obed-edom of David story, Obadiah's cave of Elijah story, and Edom of book of Obadiah?
- Has a date of 630-587 bc.
Cons include:
- "Only accessible to wild goats"?

Ethiopia:
Scenario is that Ark was taken out during bad reign of Manasseh. (Ethiopian tradition claims it was stolen by Menelik in reign of Solomon.) There is evidence that the Templars sought the holy grail in Ethiopia which was the "India" realm of Prester John.
Possible reasons for this location include:
- Hancock and Cornuke give pretty convincing evidences for an Ark having been there. We also found more evidences seemingly confirming that the "holy grail" was there. A picture of the magi bearing gifts to baby Jesus shows a grail in African's hand; and a picture of sons of Noah shows a cup by Ham (see picture in wikipedia "sons of Noah" article). The ark of the Lemba in Zimbabwe is possibly connected back to the Ethiopian ark, though it might link with Queen of Sheba & Punt?
- The bible says that there will never fail to be someone sitting on David's throne, and levites service. Ethiopia seems the only possible match for these two things between the last king of Judah and now. Where levites are there probably must be an ark.
Possible cons for this location include:
- It is hard to believe that the Jews would have taken their ark into Egypt.
- The "ark" in Ethiopia might possibly be the Table of the Sun mentioned in Herodotus.
- It is claimed that Karpet & Sapritchian managed to get in to see the ark and that it turned out that the ark is just wooden tabot tablets.

Calvary/Golgotha:
Scenario is that Ark hidden here via cave in time of Zedekiah, and that during the crucifixion of Jesus the blood of Jesus dripped on the ark, and that Wyatt found this ark in his underground archaeological investigations.
- Wyatt's claims of seeing the Ark under Skull Hill / Gordon's Calvary can not be dismissed without good reasons.
- Wyatt's claim of blood dripping on the mercy seat of the ark recalls the story of some blood of Jesus being caught in the holy grail.
- Skull Hill and the garden tomb do seem the best candidates for the real site of Calvary/Golgotha and Jesus' tomb.
Possible cons:
- Wyatt died age 66 which is abit of a spooky number.
- They claim that when Wyatt went to go back with someone else that he couldn't find the entrance again. (Though it is possible that the Jews secretly moved the ark from there to somewhere else and sealed up the entrance.)
- Wyatt has been accused of "fraud". (Though Wyatt has been proven more or less right not wrong about at least one or some things like Joseph in Egypt in 3rd dynasty.)
- It is maybe abit of a stretch to believe that the blood was able to trickle all the way from the cross to the ark through quake crack, and to last 2000 years?

Galilee:
- There is a Moslem tradition that the ark is in Galilee.
- There is a picture of wheeled ark in Capernaum, and this might be evidence of knowledge of ark being shifted up that way? (There is also a supposed "proto-ark" in Nabratein which place might be the real Nazareth of Jesus?)

The list of the main Ark location theories that i have found includes:
destroyed / in Heaven (Revelation/Apocalypse); Illinois (Kimball); Newark (Ohio, Dav Wyrick); America/USA (like Indiana Jones); Oak Island (fb); Temple Herdewyke (Stratford on Avon, UK, Philips / Cove-Jones); Tara (BI, Irish times); Pyrennes; "Priory of Sion has ark"; Rennes le Chateau; Chartres (France); Kalingrad (East Prussia, earth chronicles); Monreale; Vatican [there is a picture of Pope Gregory with an object that looks very similar to the/an ark]; in Ethiopia (Hancock, Cornuke, Grant Jeffrey, Raffaele); in Zimbabwe (Lemba, Parfitt); in Egypt (like Indiana Jones, cf Tut's ark); in Yemen; Mt Sinai; Petra (me when a teenager); between Moses & Aaron burial places (Pseudepigrapha); Mt Nebo/Pisgah (Apocrypha); Masada; Engedi; Qumran; between Jerusalem & Qumran (imaging); a now sealed/concreted-up cave/chamber under east Jerusalem; east of Jerusalem (Diefenbach, Norbergen); old city of Jerusalem (Procopius); Bethesda (me years ago based on John & Copper Scroll); Temple Mount (Rabbi Getz); Skull Hull / Gordon's Calvary "under old Jerusalem" (Wyatt); Bethlehem; in a Jordan church; Mt  Gerizzim/Samaria; kiriath Jearim (2017); Obadiah's cave; Bethel; Shiloh; "Jehoash took the ark to Israel/Samaria"; Tabor; city of refuge; in Galilee (Moslem) [there is a picture of wheeled ark in Capernaum, and is a supposed "proto-ark" in Nabratein]; Antiochus Epiphanes took 2nd ark? Babylon; Mt Tsurugi in Japan; [Australia (Schmidt)?]



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Jul-2017 at 12:24
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2017 at 22:56
I'm of the mind that the Ark is in Ethiopia. The chosen guardians  show signs of deterioration  and only have a life of about 2 years after being chosen. There is something in the "holy of holys" that's affecting them.



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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2017 at 12:14
Could be. The case is indeed pretty convincing.

There are other things that can effect people (moral/sin/lies, genders-related, water, etc). Maybe the water is fluoridated there (Axum). Its been doing the same to us here. Reminds me of recent years pictures of the last 5 US presidents. Or could be like King Tut's curse? Or maybe they have some other piece of temple treasure like an ephod? Or a later second made ark?

In high school our science teacher said the Ark was linked with first known appearance of the bubonic plague. In late medieval picture has an ark being carried before pope Gregory 1 in a plague.

Jeremiah verses possibly hint/imply that the ark was still in temple/Jerusalem in Zedekiah reign. Jeremiah says that Rechabites would be forever. A source says there were Rechabites in Mecca area. (Did the Kaaba hold the ark sometime?)


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Jul-2017 at 12:35
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2017 at 17:11
Most of the legends surrounding the Ark speak of effects similar to radiation sickness.
The guardians at Aksum display similar after a period of time.


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