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The Macedonian Question.

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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 17:58
I think that the name Slavo-macedonia would be the best solution if we had the Albanian region uniting with Albania,but do they want this?Does Albania want to unite with the Albanian region of Macedonia?I dont know
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 18:10
Thats right Anton,i have said it rules them out of any Historical claim of ancient macedonia and not of ANCESTRY,as i have said in my previous posts,there are for sure some Macedonians today who have the gene of ancient Macedonians,but so are there Greeks,Bulgarians,Albanians,and perhaps even Serbs.
The fact that there identity and language is Slavonic rules them out of claiming the historical heritage of ancient macedonia.Their lunacy is that ancient macedonia is in fact ancient slavo-macedonia.
There language and their overwhelming ethnicity seams to be Bulgarian,and as i said in they are no more decendants of ancient macedonians then Bulgarians are,Are we to say now that Alexander the Great spoke Bulgarian and was Bulgarian?
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 18:35
Originally posted by HEROI

I think that the name Slavo-macedonia would be the best solution if we had the Albanian region uniting with Albania,but do they want this?Does Albania want to unite with the Albanian region of Macedonia?I dont know


Well Albania doesn't even want to unite with Kosovo - it can barely sustain itself. The different thing is that KOSOVA is/will be the Albanian Piedmont in the Balkans and not Albania, which is also in accordance to history (1878 League of Prizreni). As for the so-called "Ilirida" - well, the people most certainly want, that's for sure.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 19:13
You are wrong,Albania has only to gain economically by uniting with Kosovo.But lets not go into that now.It is not what Albania wants or not,its what big powers want and has always been.
 
As for the people in Ilirida and in Albania i am not sure that the people in Albania think alot about uniting with Kosovo or Ilirida.Most people probably dont have an strong opinion about it.
 
As for the establishment,i told you they follow instructions from big powers,but i would not say that it does not suit Albania that there is another Albanian state in the Balkans.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 20:36
Thanks Heroi


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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 04:10

After reading many posts regarding the Macedonian question on this forum I get the impression;

The Macedonian region in Greece is inhabitted by Greeks who speak Greek and that ancient Macedonia was Hellenic so its part of their heritage.
 
The people in the Republic of Macedonia to the north speak Bulgarian and arn't ethnic kinsmen with the Greek Macedonians?
 
(Correct me if I'm wrong)
 
From an outsiders perspective, its hard to see why Greece feels threatened or takes the Macedonian claims seriously?
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 08:58
its like the Syrians claiming they're the the descendants of the Seljuk and Syria naming itself the Republic of Seljukistan. annoying with all that Arab is really Turkish revisionism, inflamed with cheeky maps that cant get the borders right - popping up here and there. However its a bit more than annoying when it becomes officially recognised in name that way...
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  Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 11:37
Originally posted by HEROI

You are wrong,Albania has only to gain economically by uniting with Kosovo.But lets not go into that now.It is not what Albania wants or not,its what big powers want and has always been.
 
As for the people in Ilirida and in Albania i am not sure that the people in Albania think alot about uniting with Kosovo or Ilirida.Most people probably dont have an strong opinion about it.
 
As for the establishment,i told you they follow instructions from big powers,but i would not say that it does not suit Albania that there is another Albanian state in the Balkans.


Well that's what I said - the capital of Great Albania would not be in Tirana, but Pristina.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 13:56
Originally posted by Bulldog

After reading many posts regarding the Macedonian question on this forum I get the impression;

The Macedonian region in Greece is inhabitted by Greeks who speak Greek and that ancient Macedonia was Hellenic so its part of their heritage.
 
The people in the Republic of Macedonia to the north speak Bulgarian and arn't ethnic kinsmen with the Greek Macedonians?
 
(Correct me if I'm wrong)
 
From an outsiders perspective, its hard to see why Greece feels threatened or takes the Macedonian claims seriously?


The Macedonian region in Greece is the largest Greek province (in size) and is inhabited by a few million Greeks (around 1.5-2 million in Thessaloniki the second greatest Greek city)
In some areas live a few Slavic-speaking populations numbering around 100,00 or less. Those people have either Greek, Bulgarian, "Macedonian" or even pure Slavic conscience.
In historical view, the region encompasses all the areas of the ancient Macedonian kingdom before Phillip.

The people in FYROM are of Slavic origin, with a large Albanian minority and speak a language almost the same with Bulgarian.
In historical view, their region was a part of the ancient Macedonian kingdom only under Philip's expansion, before it was the homeland of Paiones some non-Greek tribal nation that raided Macedonia constantly. During Roman and Byzantine and Ottoman times a region much larger than the Macedonian kingdom was called Macedonia for administrative reasons and FROM was a part of it as well.

Now, Greece is annoyed because FYROM:

a)Claims the name Macedonia, which already is used to describe the Greek region and its people.
b)Claims there are 1-2 million "Macedonians" in Greece. Of course there are but they are Greeks not "ethnic Macedonians"
c)There is much aggressiveness and expansionism in the current society and education system. Maps of a "Greater Macedonia" circulate everywhere and the answers of the average youth scare me personally. Of course they don't have military power, but with the games of the superpowers in the region you are never safe. See Kosovo.
d)they claim the ancient history of Macedonia as entirely theirs, going as far as to suggest their language isn't Bulgarian but the original ancient Macedonian.

If you search a little you will find posts by a ultra-nationalist lad that wasted hours of some of the member's time trying to smack some sense in him. Unfortunately his vews are shared by every single "Macedonian" I have encountered online. I pray that if I ever meet someone in real life, he will be different.

That's for your education.\ as an outsider
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 17:18
Macedonia should no-longer be allowed to call itself Macedonian because it may offend Greeks. New South Wales must immediately change its name from to something different to avoid offence to Welsh people. The Cameron Highlands (in Malaysia will no-long be permitted to cause such offence to Scottish People). In fact every region of the world named after somewhere, present or historical must be immediately obliged to change it's name........
 
For christ sake, can't the population of Greece, get a life.


Edited by Paul - 27-Mar-2008 at 17:19
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 17:43
I will try to highlight the weaknesses in your argument with some rhetorical questions, Paul.
 
Was the purpose of putting Wales in NSW to antagonise the Welsh? Does NSW border Wales?  Do NSW nationalists have claims on Welsh territory? Do the people of NSW claim exclusivity of Welsh history and call the Welsh imposters?  Were parts of NSW once a part of Wales which were forcibly taken from that country?
 
To play devil's advocate: The Macedonian question should be answered with a dissolution of that country to continue along the policies being applied to neighbouring countries.  Why weren't the Albanians of FYRM given any NATO, EU or US support in their uprising?


Edited by Zagros - 27-Mar-2008 at 17:45
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 18:30
So Macedonians chose the name deliberately to annoy Greece, rather than despite it would annoy Greece. Had the name Macedonian not annoyed Greece enough, they would have chose another one instead.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 18:57
Originally posted by Zagros

I will try to highlight the weaknesses in your argument with some rhetorical questions, Paul.
 
Was the purpose of putting Wales in NSW to antagonise the Welsh? Does NSW border Wales?  Do NSW nationalists have claims on Welsh territory? Do the people of NSW claim exclusivity of Welsh history and call the Welsh imposters?  Were parts of NSW once a part of Wales which were forcibly taken from that country?
 
To play devil's advocate: The Macedonian question should be answered with a dissolution of that country to continue along the policies being applied to neighbouring countries.  Why weren't the Albanians of FYRM given any NATO, EU or US support in their uprising?


Seriously, I couldn't say it better. Clap


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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 19:00
Well that's what I said - the capital of Great Albania would not be in Tirana, but Pristina.


This is the exact problem with a united Kosovo and Albania. You would have both Tirana and Prishtina fighting for power. Tirana would retain its title as capital of Albania and would look to expand at the cost of Prishtina. As of now the latter enjoys the status of an independent nation; but under a united Albania it would have, at best, an autonomous status with Tirana's claws continually gnawing at it.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 19:08
Originally posted by Paul

So Macedonians chose the name deliberately to annoy Greece, rather than despite it would annoy Greece. Had the name Macedonian not annoyed Greece enough, they would have chose another one instead.


Macedonians didn't name their country...  Someone with certain designs did.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 19:15
The name 'macedonians' was given to this people, not in 1991, not in 1945, but roughly a century ago.
It was created in order to differentiate the slavic people of Macedonia from the bulgars, as there was the state of Bulgaria, which had open aspirations of incorporating the region (in 1878, after the russoturkish war, it briefly was given to Bulgaria, and then taken away in 1881, in a second agreement). All states apart from Bulgaria benefited from this.
The local population was uneducated simple folk, and they had no noatinal conciousness apart from 'christian'. In the late 19th century, and early 20th, in the ottoman region of Macedonia a struggle was going on, between the bulgarians who tried to create a bulgarian conciousness to the slavmacedonians, an independent movement led by a slavmacedonian idealist called Verhof supported mainly by the slavmacedonian element, serbs who tried to create a serb conciousness to the slavmacedonians, and greeks who relied mainly on the greek and vlach elements of the region, and simultanously tried to create a greek conciousness to the maceonianslavs, based on religion (as the bulgarians had created their own indpendent church). In this effort, Greece also used the macedonian national conciousness, in order to alienate slavmacedonians from bulgarians, and to bring them closer to greeks, as the ancient macedonian "nationality" was understood as purely greek.
Despite all the ideological struggle, and the war between armed bands, the Balkan wars created a new reality. Greece won southern macedonia, and Serbia northern. Serbia didn't originally use the term 'macedonia', as -as I already mentioned-, they considered the slavmacedonians as serbs. They basically seem to have called the area of FYROM either as southern Serbia, or as Vardarska, because of the river Vardar, which crosses the region. After the creation of communist Yugoslavia, Tito created several 'republics' withing Yugoslavia, such as Bosnia and Macedonia. The communist ideology did not put weight on national conciousness, however, as Bulgaria was a different state from Yugoslavia, and as Yugoslavia was part of the 'independents' rather than the Warsaw pact of which Bulgaria was part, Yugoslavia cultivated the 'macedonian' conciousness.
Before WWII Greece had no problems with any use of the term macedonia. In censuses carried in the interwar, Greece counted the slavspeakers, and categorized them into two categories: patriarchical (loyal to the patriarchate of Constantinople) and thus pro-greek, and exarchical (the Bulgarian church was called the "Exarchy") and thus pro-bulgarian. I t should be noticed that during the greek civil war, Titoist Yugoslavia was openly involved, supporting the communist side, even sending 'macedonian' guerillas from Yugoslavia. As such many of the slav macedonian populations of Greece participated on the communist side. However, within slavmacedonian ranks, there was an internal war going on, between pro-bulgaria and autonomists (=Yugoslav). It should be noticed also, that the slavmacedonians who participated, were the same categorized by pre-war censuses as 'exarchical'.


Edited by xristar - 27-Mar-2008 at 19:27

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 19:40
The local population was uneducated simple folk, and they had no noatinal conciousness apart from 'christian'
Thumbs%20Down Sure, they were also retarded and awaiting for civilizational light from the Greeks.
 
And maybe one of you would remember about the re-Greekisation of Macedonia by population exchanges with Bulgaria and Turkey. Maybe FYROM is today playing a dirty card by attempting to usurp the Greek history, but the creation of FYROM is as artificial as Macedonia being Greek today (and many other areas - especially in southeastern Europe where borders and ethnic homogenization is recent) - i.e. a result of modern politics.


Edited by Chilbudios - 27-Mar-2008 at 19:42
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 19:45
Originally posted by Paul

So Macedonians chose the name deliberately to annoy Greece, rather than despite it would annoy Greece. Had the name Macedonian not annoyed Greece enough, they would have chose another one instead.


In an ideal world that would be the case...

However already after WWI, Greece started to get annoyed with this new issue back then. After WWII and Titos renaming of Vardarska to Makedonija things got worse.

This papper back from 1924 shouts out:

"ΘΑ ΧΑΣΩΜΕΝ ΤΗΝ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑΝ"
"WE WILL LOOSE MACEDONIA"
"ΕΚΕΙ ΑΓΕΙ Η ΝΕΑ ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΟΦΙΛΟΣ ΑΓΓΛΙΚΗ ΠΟΛΙΤΙΚΗ ΤΗΣ ΕΛΛΑΔΟΣ"
"THE NEW BULGAROPHILE ENGLISH POLITICS DRIVE IN GREECE "




The paper below from 1949 says

ΑΛΛΑΞΕΝ Η ΒΑΛΚΑΝΙΚΗ ΠΟΛΙΤΙΚΗ ΤΗΣ ΜΟΣΧΑΣ

α) Διαμελισμός όχι κατάκτηση της Ελλάδος
β) Ανατροπή του Τίτο μέσω της Μακεδονίας

THE BALKAN POLITICS OF MOSKOW HAS CHANGED

a) Splitting of Greece not occupation
b) Tackling of Tito through Macedonia





So, I guess you didn't know we're been worried for a long time. Ofcourse, as long as Tito was in place and assured Greece there are no plans of attacking, things calmed down to a certain extend in a political level.

As for the modern days I guess that the demostrations of over a million people and Athens and half a million in Thessaloniki back in 1993 are more that enough to show that Greeks were pissed off.



Last but not least, when you're about to create a state and know there might be implications, you contact you neighbour and tell him your story. At least that is how healthy politics should be.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 19:50
Originally posted by Chilbudios

And maybe one of you would remember about the re-Greekisation of Macedonia by population exchanges with Bulgaria and Turkey. Maybe FYROM is today playing a dirty card by attempting to usurp the Greek history, but the creation of FYROM is as artificial as Macedonia being Greek today (and many other areas - especially in southeastern Europe where borders and ethnic homogenization is recent) - i.e. a result of modern politics.


Yes but it happened basically in Makedonia, FYRO Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey as a result of a war. That part did not affect just Greece and the region of Makedonia but the other countries and their region as well. Remember that Ionia was emptied for that reason, so all that is another story that affected everyone.


Edited by Flipper - 27-Mar-2008 at 19:54


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 20:10

Yes but it happened basically in Makedonia, FYRO Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey as a result of a war. That part did not affect just Greece and the region of Makedonia but the other countries and their region as well. Remember that Ionia was emptied for that reason, so all that is another story that affected everyone
You are entitled to claim a fair study of history and to unbound modern politics of fallacious protochronisms and irredentism. This is as much as my sympathy goes for the Greeks when they argue about having a country bordering them named Macedonia. But Macedonia did not have even a Greek majority before the Balkan wars, so your province is as artificial and as modern as FYROM, they were both created in the 20th century. If weren't for some extremist FYROM-ers, I believe they would have the same right as the Greeks to name their country Macedonia (I think I provided already this example in another thread: Romania has a historical province named Moldova which is neighboured by Republic of Moldova, and there's no quarrel about names).

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