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The Macedonian Question.

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 10:50
Originally posted by Anton

Yeah, but they way becomes even more disgusting under Greek pressure.


Have I missed something? Is there another epic discovery or have issues with Bulgaria gone bigger?

Btw, there are other matters that put pressure. The UN as Nimitz said has no timelines but it is NATO that puts pressure.


Edited by Flipper - 26-Mar-2008 at 10:51


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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 10:57
It seems we won't have any solution.
Nimitz proposed a new name: Republic of Macedonia (Skopje), but he requires also that Greece recognizes a "macedonian" ethnicity.
The greek side is dissapointed of this proposal, and the fact that Nimitz said that some "centres of decisions" want the solution to be found soon, apparently before the NATO confernce (and apparently the "centre" is USA).
Greek newspapers estimate that the Veto is almost a certainty now.

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 10:58
Originally posted by HEROI

How could it be the wrong statement?
Slavo-Macedonians who speak Slavonic (Bulgarian in fact) and have Slavonic identity,i am repeating are completely ruled out of Ancient Macedonia Heritage.
 
The fact that you repeat something doesn't make it more true. Identities are changing with time, and so do languages. Culture is developed based on previous herritage. Which in case of Macedonia includes preroman, Roman and Slavonic (obviously majorly Bulgarian). It is their own business which one would they like to emphasize to build their national myths. This emphasizing BTW is done by every nation.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:02
Originally posted by Flipper


Have I missed something? Is there another epic discovery or have issues with Bulgaria gone bigger?
 
What did you miss? Big Fat Greek Wedding style attitude of most Greeks toward Macedonians? Mate, it is really hard to miss it. Wink
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:03
Originally posted by xristar

It seems we won't have any solution.
Nimitz proposed a new name: Republic of Macedonia (Skopje), but he requires also that Greece recognizes a "macedonian" ethnicity.
 
In FYROM or north Greece?
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:08
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by xristar

It seems we won't have any solution.
Nimitz proposed a new name: Republic of Macedonia (Skopje), but he requires also that Greece recognizes a "macedonian" ethnicity.
 
In FYROM or north Greece?

Generally, but basically recognizing a 'macedonian' minority in northern Greece...

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:16
I see. Interesting situation will happen then. Bulgarian speaking Greeks, claiming they are more Greek than the rest Wink
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:47
Originally posted by Anton

 
What did you miss? Big Fat Greek Wedding style attitude of most Greeks toward Macedonians? Mate, it is really hard to miss it. Wink


Be more specific. People are at least pissed off at this moment in Greece so you will see a lot. It would be also good to mention the others sides attitude 17 years now, especially regarding certain groups of Greek people.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:50
Originally posted by xristar

Generally, but basically recognizing a 'macedonian' minority in northern Greece...


Which is simply impossible with such a name. Impossible because you have other people using it and the political cost for such an action would be the elimination of the ruling party for ever. Some Greeks refer to this minority as Slavomacedonian but as plain macedonian will never happen.

For me slavomacedonian minority is an ok term.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:52
Originally posted by Anton

Bulgarian speaking Greeks, claiming they are more Greek than the rest Wink


This is not new...Visit Psarades in Florina and ask them in Bulgarian if they are Bulgarians.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 12:09
Originally posted by Flipper


This is not new...Visit Psarades in Florina and ask them in Bulgarian if they are Bulgarians.
 
I think there is nothing to be proud about.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 12:19
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Flipper


This is not new...Visit Psarades in Florina and ask them in Bulgarian if they are Bulgarians.
 
I think there is nothing to be proud about.


I didn't say that. It's just a reality.


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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 12:57
How aboutrenaming the present FYROM Macedonia to the Republic of NorthernMacedonia, while Greeks can call their province Southern Macedonia. Sorta like North and South Korea.Clap
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 14:00
Originally posted by Roberts

How about renaming the present FYROM Macedonia to the Republic of NorthernMacedonia, while Greeks can call their province Southern Macedonia. Sorta like North and South Korea.Clap


It is one of the official proposals and i think it has been considered for further discussion from the Greek side. The question here is how it will be used and what potential it has for missusage.

Something i thought of today was Paionian Macedonia. What about that? Geographically it is the most accurate name.


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 14:57

Anton id dont understand were exactly you are against me,you starting again to post things that have no conection at all with what i have said and pretend to be reply against something you yourself create?Is that an illness you have or something?Man i have told you before i am not here to explain to you a thousend times what i am sain in my posts,if you find them confusing,or wrong or you dont understand them,you dont have to quote.

Flipper,the problem is not that anybody denies the fact that there is an Ancient Macedonian component in todays,Macedonia,or Greece,or Albania,or Bulgaria,there certainly is.
 
The problem is not as Anton sais that they are chosing to Claim their heritage from this particular component,even if the language did not survive and they are overwelmingly Bulgars,the problem is that their identity is not a macedonian one,but a Slavo-Macedonian one.They Claim to be Macedonians and at the same time Slavonic,they Claim Alexander the Great to have spoken their language,the Macedonian Slavonic language,here starts the Historical Lunacy,but lets leave this aside for a moment and take it as normal that a nation should at any cost atribute itself some ancient historical heritage.
 
How can it be ok for Greece and even Bulgaria that they claim Ancient Macedonia as their Historical land?Thats where the problem kicks in.
 
Is fine for me to let you kid yourself as much as you want,but if i am going to accept this as an historical fact,then why should not i accept the fact that the historical borders of this nation are well within my own borders?
 
Another thing,where was this Macedonian coussiousnes for hundred of years?Did the slavo-macedonians and the world just realised that they are the decendants of Ancient Macedonia?
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 15:03
Another thing.the name Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) is wrong,because is not a countrys name,it can not be for to long and problems would resurface.
 
Had the Macedonian establishment not put at the foundations of their new nation the ancient macedonian element.i am sure that Greece would not have bothered alot with its name,it is precisely because an nationhood,an pseudo-ethnicity is being created on behalf of ancient macedonia wich has within it half of Greece that the problem arises and that Greece can not stand by.
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 15:31
Originally posted by HEROI

Another thing.the name Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) is wrong,because is not a countrys name,it can not be for to long and problems would resurface.
 
Had the Macedonian establishment not put at the foundations of their new nation the ancient macedonian element.i am sure that Greece would not have bothered alot with its name,it is precisely because an nationhood,an pseudo-ethnicity is being created on behalf of ancient macedonia wich has within it half of Greece that the problem arises and that Greece can not stand by.



Exactly. When you watch their youth parade in ancient Macedonian armor (LOL, even with fake beards) and wave maps of OUR Macedonia and the Bulgarian part and claim that Thessaloniki a city of two million Greeks is under occupation.....you can't have warm, fuzzy feelings for your neighbour can you?

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 15:55
Originally posted by HEROI

Anton id dont understand were exactly you are against me,you starting again to post things that have no conection at all with what i have said and pretend to be reply against something you yourself create?Is that an illness you have or something?Man i have told you before i am not here to explain to you a thousend times what i am sain in my posts,if you find them confusing,or wrong or you dont understand them,you dont have to quote.

 
I might be "ill or something" but you said exactly as follows:
 
"The fact that slavo-macedonians speak slavonic,and have slavonic identity,completely rules them out of any historical claim to ancient Macedonia."
 
Which I understand as: "Slav Macedonians speak language different from that of Ancient Macedonians and have self identity different from that of Ancient Macedonians and thus they are not descendants of Ancient Macedonians. This means that they cannot claim the herritage of Ancient Macedonians". If this is what you mean, then it is wrong. If you mean something different, then whatever is the reason for you being here it is wise to make your ideas more clear Tongue
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 16:33
Originally posted by HEROI

Another thing.the name Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) is wrong,because is not a countrys name,it can not be for to long and problems would resurface.
 
Had the Macedonian establishment not put at the foundations of their new nation the ancient macedonian element.i am sure that Greece would not have bothered alot with its name,it is precisely because an nationhood,an pseudo-ethnicity is being created on behalf of ancient macedonia wich has within it half of Greece that the problem arises and that Greece can not stand by.


Clap
You're right here. Tell me something Heroi. If the name "Slavomacedonia" had settled, do you think the Albanians of that country would bother? Cause in several discussions it was said that the Albanians would dissagree (however, they never said so) and that it could not be discussed. As far as I know the Albanians have other more serious issues to take care of and they don't really put weight on the name issue.


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 17:52
I dont think so actually Flipper.Because that would imply that Macedonia is a Slavic State when its clearly Multiethnic,so i guess the reason for it not having being taken so seriously is presicely this.It would put to much emphasis on one single Ethnicity in a country with a clear ethnic Albanian majority in its own region.If we have to find a more fitting name similar to that then it would be the AlbanianoSlavoMacedonia and that would be to boring for a countrys name.
 
Albanians in Macedonia really dont put wheight to the name issue as long as their national identity is respected fully.But a name like Slavomacedonia would be to sensitive,because it would imply that Macedonia is a Slavonic country and that is not the case,Albanians are in their Historical ethnic lands there,and they in the nex 20 years would make up nearly half the population in Macedonia.It would be sensitive specially in country that as i said is try to artificially create an ethnicity out of the blue,they even try so blatantly to start the Macedonian-sation of Albanians living there with stuipid laws like the one prohibiting the national Flag and not teaching Albanian in the schools in their own region,to make the Alb kids grow up speking slavo-macedonian and think then they are part of a ethnicity that has its roots in Ancient Slavo-Macedonia.
 
The war in Macedonia was fought precisely to preserve the Albanian national identity,thats why such an proposition would be dangerous.


Edited by HEROI - 26-Mar-2008 at 17:55
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